Is it wrong to decry the decline of world leadership quality?

I was going to post this in The History Thread, but didn't want to change the narrative of that very good thread and decided to make a separate one.

Just finished watching the documentary "JFK: A President Betrayed".

Now, before anyone leaps in to shout about all the negative stuff regarding Kennedy, I'm fully aware of the guy's faults as POTUS. Of the 45 Presidents we've had over the course of history, I'm pretty sure we've had exactly ZERO who have been perfect.

JFK gets rightly criticized for things he did wrong, particularly during the early days of his presidency. But in the huge moments in the history of the U.S. and arguably the world, Kennedy I believe stepped up to the plate. It can be argued that few U.S. Presidents have stepped into office with so many critical issues hanging on the balance. Yet JFK, for all his rookie mistakes, was pretty much in the process of righting the ship when his presidency was abruptly ended in Nov 1963.

I watch Kennedy's speeches, as I've watched old speeches from past world leaders, and I can honestly say I truly decry the depths we've sunk to, and to which we've become accustomed to..... making it the new normal in the world. To hear Kennedy speak, or Eisenhower, or other world leaders of the time..... and then to hear Trump speak.... is almost like traveling to another planet and watching aliens speak.

Please spare me the "well, times have changed" spiel. Yeah, times have changed. Technology has changed our world. Communications have gone from landlines and letter, to smartphones and social media.

But human decency and the dignity of the highest office in the land. Has there been a need for that to change as well?

It's not just Trump, either. Seems like the unlikeliest personalities have been popping up as world leaders like so many mushrooms.

Toward the end of the documentary, Evan Thomas, a professor in Princeton University, sums things up nicely. Coming from him, it is valuable, since he was old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis and JFK's assassination.




Summing up, this isn't just another dig at Trump, whose election to the highest public office in the world is still mind-boggling to me. This is just an expression of sadness, much like Thomas said, about how far we've plunged down the cliff of human dignity and decency, to the point where we can elect just any Joe Shmoe to be President, or PM, or whatever...... and be satisfied and happy with it. Settling is such a downer.

Anyway, there's many sayings and quotes to pick from. But I'll just choose a couple for now.


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....fL._SY606_.jpg


https://www.habitsforwellbeing.com/w...68-630x315.jpg

Kennedy was very fascinating. I like that he was high on a cocktail of drugs while dealing with a situation that could have ended up in all out end of times war. Screwing Russian agents I mean the dude was incredible and the press actually covered for him. I have read there was a good chance that shit would get out if he ran for a second term but alas we will never know. We could probably go back and find many political or personal views of why each president who ever sat in office was the worst “at the time they were in office” it seems history is the proper judge as it’s difficult to filter out the bias for an sitting president. So no, I find nothing strange or bad going on, there is a reason why trump got elected, perhaps history will look at that someday

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Originally Posted by walrus

Kennedy was very fascinating. I like that he was high on a cocktail of drugs while dealing with a situation that could have ended up in all out end of times war. Screwing Russian agents I mean the dude was incredible and the press actually covered for him. I have read there was a good chance that shit would get out if he ran for a second term but alas we will never know. We could probably go back and find many political or personal views of why each president who ever sat in office was the worst “at the time they were in office” it seems history is the proper judge as it’s difficult to filter out the bias for an sitting president. So no, I find nothing strange or bad going on, there is a reason why trump got elected, perhaps history will look at that someday

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I would've preferred JFK on that alleged cocktail of drugs than Trump, when faced with something as delicate and precarious as the Cuban Missile Crisis. But to each his own.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

Kennedy was very fascinating. I like that he was high on a cocktail of drugs while dealing with a situation that could have ended up in all out end of times war. Screwing Russian agents I mean the dude was incredible and the press actually covered for him. I have read there was a good chance that shit would get out if he ran for a second term but alas we will never know. We could probably go back and find many political or personal views of why each president who ever sat in office was the worst “at the time they were in office” it seems history is the proper judge as it’s difficult to filter out the bias for an sitting president. So no, I find nothing strange or bad going on, there is a reason why trump got elected, perhaps history will look at that someday

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I would've preferred JFK on that alleged cocktail of drugs than Trump, when faced with something as delicate and precarious as the Cuban Missile Crisis. But to each his own.

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It’s documented the dude had horrible back pain and took painkillers. His back was really fucked it caused him to completely blow one of his meetings in Russia. The amphetamines I believe we’re for Addison's disease although I don’t recall of hand. I’m not knocking him for that, he had legitimate illness and it was prior to the time so much study was done on the effects of these drugs.

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

Kennedy was very fascinating. I like that he was high on a cocktail of drugs while dealing with a situation that could have ended up in all out end of times war. Screwing Russian agents I mean the dude was incredible and the press actually covered for him. I have read there was a good chance that shit would get out if he ran for a second term but alas we will never know. We could probably go back and find many political or personal views of why each president who ever sat in office was the worst “at the time they were in office” it seems history is the proper judge as it’s difficult to filter out the bias for an sitting president. So no, I find nothing strange or bad going on, there is a reason why trump got elected, perhaps history will look at that someday

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I would've preferred JFK on that alleged cocktail of drugs than Trump, when faced with something as delicate and precarious as the Cuban Missile Crisis. But to each his own.

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It’s documented the dude had horrible back pain and took painkillers. His back was really fucked it caused him to completely blow one of his meetings in Russia. The amphetamines I believe we’re for Addison's disease although I don’t recall of hand. I’m not knocking him for that, he had legitimate illness and it was prior to the time so much study was done on the effects of these drugs.

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Yes he did have terrible, well documented back pains. Reportedly caused by a football injury back in college, and worsened by his boat-related incident during the war. When you think about it, it's admirable he did what he did, as the back problems were severe and JFK had had spinal surgeries and also been hospitalized for intestinal ailments. Back then, medicine wasn't what it is today, so it must have been excruciating for him to perform his duties as President and deal with the mega scrutiny he had to endure during those short years. I can't think of too many "dime-a-dozen" politicians today that would be able to perform up to that level under those circumstance.

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

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Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

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Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

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Precisely what he DIDN'T do though did he.

Regardless of the unbearable pressures being put on him by the hawkish U.S. military leaders of the time.

But go ahead and put him down, if it helps prop up the human trash bin that inhabits the White House today.

well the word wrong really is a subjective call and you are talking about morals and people's standards which vary according to the individual. So there's nothing wrong per se with decrying etc

and remember it's not just world leadership it is humanity in general that is declining and because the world leaders are chosen from the pool of humanity they will be reflecting that same phenomenon

also these days with technology everywhere and information coming at us from all sides 24/7 it is more understandable that people are on a hair trigger with fighting back and retaliating because if something goes viral these days even if it's wrong or fake it can completely destroy you so people are more on a hair trigger and people are much more overly defensive because the stakes are a lot higher

If there's anything wrong about it I can't think of it to answer your question

but the exact same thing can be said of music as well when you go back and watch a music video of Jimi Hendrix and then you watch a music video from 2019 it also feels like you have been transported back to a different world where everything was a very much higher character and quality

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

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Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

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Precisely what he DIDN'T do though did he.

Regardless of the unbearable pressures being put on him by the hawkish U.S. military leaders of the time.

But go ahead and put him down, if it helps prop up the human trash bin that inhabits the White House today.

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Quite true. Now look at Trump, sure he's talked of bombing places and what not, but what has he DONE? Peace in Korea...who expected that? Working to bring the "endless wars" to a close, allowing our troops to demolish ISIS so that our service members can come home.

Think of the pressures on Trump regarding Syria. People calling him a Russian asset for NOT getting stuck in over there....yet he quite bravely kept us out of that hornets nest despite the peer pressure.


Sure he is a bit large at times....he's Donald Fucking Trump, he's been that way his whole life. Lots of characters were larger than life, JFK and Marilyn anyone? Reagan and "the bombing begins in 5 minutes"? Churchill and when the lady said she'd poison him he responded "if you were my wife I'd drink it" ...... have a bit of a laugh.

Bravely? (:

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Originally Posted by Beanz

Bravely? (:

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Yes actually.

Probably wrong. In the words of Byrne 'Same as it ever was'. From Kennedy, to Nixon, to Clinton, to Bush and beyond.

Kennedy was a junky sermingly with a chronic sex addiction. Charming on the surface, but pretty messed up.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/jfk-...de-pornography

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

well the word wrong really is a subjective call and you are talking about morals and people's standards which vary according to the individual. So there's nothing wrong per se with decrying etc

and remember it's not just world leadership it is humanity in general that is declining and because the world leaders are chosen from the pool of humanity they will be reflecting that same phenomenon

also these days with technology everywhere and information coming at us from all sides 24/7 it is more understandable that people are on a hair trigger with fighting back and retaliating because if something goes viral these days even if it's wrong or fake it can completely destroy you so people are more on a hair trigger and people are much more overly defensive because the stakes are a lot higher

If there's anything wrong about it I can't think of it to answer your question

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This is something nobody would outwardly agree to... but worth some consideration. The information overload problem coupled with the social media explosion... yeah... it should probably be thrown into the equation also.

Feels somehow dirty to think that "humanity in general is declining", as you say. But the truth is that people with an ironclad word and honor seem more rare nowadays than the dodo.

I still balk at the idea that we have to SETTLE (caps on purpose) for whatever we drag from the bottom of the barrel, but what the hell...........

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Probably wrong. In the words of Byrne 'Same as it ever was'. From Kennedy, to Nixon, to Clinton, to Bush and beyond.

Kennedy was a junky sermingly with a chronic sex addiction. Charming on the surface, but pretty messed up.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/jfk-...de-pornography

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I couldn't give less of a shit about his sexual exploits. Fact of the matter was he conducted himself like the fucking President of the United States well enough where you didn't feel embarrassed telling others that he was the President of your country.

That the bar has been lowered to Earth core levels remains a sad commentary on humanity.

Think back on the classical days of classical oratory. The Roman senators the Greek sophists think back on the Renaissance the people of letters the great men and women of scholarliness. We definitely do not have any more of that that is for sure

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

Think back on the classical days of classical oratory. The Roman senators the Greek sophists think back on the Renaissance the people of letters the great men and women of scholarliness. We definitely do not have any more of that that is for sure

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We don't need to go back that far though, bro.

I'd settle for someone with diction, vocabulary and speaking skills a tad higher than the town drunk.

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

Think back on the classical days of classical oratory. The Roman senators the Greek sophists think back on the Renaissance the people of letters the great men and women of scholarliness. We definitely do not have any more of that that is for sure

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@TitoFan Trump couldn't carry their jockstraps.... But then again, neither could Obama or PELOSI or Bush, none of whom could do a 2-hour impromptu speech without a cunt teleprompter.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Probably wrong. In the words of Byrne 'Same as it ever was'. From Kennedy, to Nixon, to Clinton, to Bush and beyond.

Kennedy was a junky sermingly with a chronic sex addiction. Charming on the surface, but pretty messed up.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/jfk-...de-pornography

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I couldn't give less of a shit about his sexual exploits. Fact of the matter was he conducted himself like the fucking President of the United States well enough where you didn't feel embarrassed telling others that he was the President of your country.

That the bar has been lowered to Earth core levels remains a sad commentary on humanity.

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I disagree. I think he also handled Vietnam like a muppet thus leading to a lot of mess that did not need to happen. The result was America basically going bankrupt a long time after himself of course.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

---

Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

---

Precisely what he DIDN'T do though did he.

Regardless of the unbearable pressures being put on him by the hawkish U.S. military leaders of the time.

But go ahead and put him down, if it helps prop up the human trash bin that inhabits the White House today.

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Dude I don’t know why you took that as putting him down. It was just a historical fact that he was ready and considered doing it. Kennedy has been judged rather saintly because of the bullet. Had he served out his term history may not have been so kind. He made bad calls and did stupid shit like all other presidents plus the fiasco of corrupting the vote would have been more in the front than it was.

I slept with his wife too

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Probably wrong. In the words of Byrne 'Same as it ever was'. From Kennedy, to Nixon, to Clinton, to Bush and beyond.

Kennedy was a junky sermingly with a chronic sex addiction. Charming on the surface, but pretty messed up.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/jfk-...de-pornography

---

I couldn't give less of a shit about his sexual exploits. Fact of the matter was he conducted himself like the fucking President of the United States well enough where you didn't feel embarrassed telling others that he was the President of your country.

That the bar has been lowered to Earth core levels remains a sad commentary on humanity.

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I disagree. I think he also handled Vietnam like a muppet thus leading to a lot of mess that did not need to happen. The result was America basically going bankrupt a long time after himself of course.

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Disagree all you like. Doesn't stop you from being wrong. Also, I suggest you bone up a little on American history. The Vietnam War postdates Kennedy. Escalation of the war is mostly attributed to Lyndon B. Johnson. So in your rush to join the chorus and throw dirt on a President you know zilch about... get your facts straight.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Probably wrong. In the words of Byrne 'Same as it ever was'. From Kennedy, to Nixon, to Clinton, to Bush and beyond.

Kennedy was a junky sermingly with a chronic sex addiction. Charming on the surface, but pretty messed up.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/jfk-...de-pornography

---

I couldn't give less of a shit about his sexual exploits. Fact of the matter was he conducted himself like the fucking President of the United States well enough where you didn't feel embarrassed telling others that he was the President of your country.

That the bar has been lowered to Earth core levels remains a sad commentary on humanity.

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I disagree. I think he also handled Vietnam like a muppet thus leading to a lot of mess that did not need to happen. The result was America basically going bankrupt a long time after himself of course.

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Disagree all you like. Doesn't stop you from being wrong. Also, I suggest you bone up a little on American history. The Vietnam War postdates Kennedy. Escalation of the war is mostly attributed to Lyndon B. Johnson. So in your rush to join the chorus and throw dirt on a President you know zilch about... get your facts straight.

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Conducting himself like a president? He did all the same shit he just didn’t get caught.

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

---

Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

---

Precisely what he DIDN'T do though did he.

Regardless of the unbearable pressures being put on him by the hawkish U.S. military leaders of the time.

But go ahead and put him down, if it helps prop up the human trash bin that inhabits the White House today.

---

Dude I don’t know why you took that as putting him down.

Who me? C'mon man. It's me you're talking to. I would've thought you knew me better by now. The wording was totally innocent, right? :rolleyes: :cool:

It was just a historical fact that he was ready and considered doing it. Kennedy has been judged rather saintly because of the bullet. Had he served out his term history may not have been so kind. He made bad calls and did stupid shit like all other presidents plus the fiasco of corrupting the vote would have been more in the front than it was.

He never got the chance to serve out his term so I guess we'll never know, right? He took on the war-mongering military heads and assumed the one posture that preserved the world as people knew it back then. Never said he was perfect, if you bothered to read the opening post. Listen.... I get it that you Trumpers will stop at nothing to build up your man at the expense of past Presidents, no matter what. But at least try to retain some sort of objectiveness while you're doing it.

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Thread diverted as usual.

Beginning to think Fats was right, 9 posts into the thread.
:thinking2:

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

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Originally Posted by Fatboxingfan

Think back on the classical days of classical oratory. The Roman senators the Greek sophists think back on the Renaissance the people of letters the great men and women of scholarliness. We definitely do not have any more of that that is for sure

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@TitoFan Trump couldn't carry their jockstraps

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Second correct thing you've said on this thread. You're on a roll bro. ;D

Only thing I'd add is there is a conga line of past POTUSes whose jocks Trump wouldn't be able to carry.

The man is a clown with limited speaking skills, and the personality of a chubby, 5th grade bully.

Fuck Trump.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

---

Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

---

Precisely what he DIDN'T do though did he.

Regardless of the unbearable pressures being put on him by the hawkish U.S. military leaders of the time.

But go ahead and put him down, if it helps prop up the human trash bin that inhabits the White House today.

---

Dude I don’t know why you took that as putting him down.

Who me? C'mon man. It's me you're talking to. I would've thought you knew me better by now. The wording was totally innocent, right? :rolleyes: :cool:

It was just a historical fact that he was ready and considered doing it. Kennedy has been judged rather saintly because of the bullet. Had he served out his term history may not have been so kind. He made bad calls and did stupid shit like all other presidents plus the fiasco of corrupting the vote would have been more in the front than it was.

He never got the chance to serve out his term so I guess we'll never know, right? He took on the war-mongering military heads and assumed the one posture that preserved the world as people knew it back then. Never said he was perfect, if you bothered to read the opening post. Listen.... I get it that you Trumpers will stop at nothing to build up your man at the expense of past Presidents, no matter what. But at least try to retain some sort of objectiveness while you're doing it.

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Thread diverted as usual.

Beginning to think Fats was right, 9 posts into the thread.
:thinking2:

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I don’t know your reading it wrong. I’ve said nothing about trump just you putting Kennedy on a pedestal in your opening stanza. You are right though, Kennedy did want troops out of Vietnam although there is some debate about it. Remember that was one of the many conspiracy theories on why he was killed. It’s odd tits, when we have brought up Obama’s policies compared to trump you have often stated the comparing of presidents gets old and I have said it’s how presidents are judged, yet here we are. We got off track because facts you don’t like were brought up about Camelot and crew. Would he have been elected if his father didn’t collude to corrupt the vote in the first place.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Probably wrong. In the words of Byrne 'Same as it ever was'. From Kennedy, to Nixon, to Clinton, to Bush and beyond.

Kennedy was a junky sermingly with a chronic sex addiction. Charming on the surface, but pretty messed up.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/jfk-...de-pornography

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I couldn't give less of a shit about his sexual exploits. Fact of the matter was he conducted himself like the fucking President of the United States well enough where you didn't feel embarrassed telling others that he was the President of your country.

That the bar has been lowered to Earth core levels remains a sad commentary on humanity.

---

I disagree. I think he also handled Vietnam like a muppet thus leading to a lot of mess that did not need to happen. The result was America basically going bankrupt a long time after himself of course.

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Disagree all you like. Doesn't stop you from being wrong. Also, I suggest you bone up a little on American history. The Vietnam War postdates Kennedy. Escalation of the war is mostly attributed to Lyndon B. Johnson. So in your rush to join the chorus and throw dirt on a President you know zilch about... get your facts straight.

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Kennedy expanded something that could never be finished and the result a decade later was the US so broke it could not commit to the gold standard. Not the best source, but I know my contemporary US history. It is just a fact that Kennedy used chemicals that create cancer on a country which is far worse than anything Assad did not actually do and himself expanded warfare in the region. It was bad judgment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_in_the_Vietnam_War

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

---

Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

---

Precisely what he DIDN'T do though did he.

Regardless of the unbearable pressures being put on him by the hawkish U.S. military leaders of the time.

But go ahead and put him down, if it helps prop up the human trash bin that inhabits the White House today.

---

Dude I don’t know why you took that as putting him down.

Who me? C'mon man. It's me you're talking to. I would've thought you knew me better by now. The wording was totally innocent, right? :rolleyes: :cool:

It was just a historical fact that he was ready and considered doing it. Kennedy has been judged rather saintly because of the bullet. Had he served out his term history may not have been so kind. He made bad calls and did stupid shit like all other presidents plus the fiasco of corrupting the vote would have been more in the front than it was.

He never got the chance to serve out his term so I guess we'll never know, right? He took on the war-mongering military heads and assumed the one posture that preserved the world as people knew it back then. Never said he was perfect, if you bothered to read the opening post. Listen.... I get it that you Trumpers will stop at nothing to build up your man at the expense of past Presidents, no matter what. But at least try to retain some sort of objectiveness while you're doing it.

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Thread diverted as usual.

Beginning to think Fats was right, 9 posts into the thread.
:thinking2:

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I don’t know your reading it wrong. I’ve said nothing about trump just you putting Kennedy on a pedestal in your opening stanza. You are right though, Kennedy did want troops out of Vietnam although there is some debate about it. Remember that was one of the many conspiracy theories on why he was killed. It’s odd tits, when we have brought up Obama’s policies compared to trump you have often stated the comparing of presidents gets old and I have said it’s how presidents are judged, yet here we are. We got off track because facts you don’t like were brought up about Camelot and crew. Would he have been elected if his father didn’t collude to corrupt the vote in the first place.

That was 1961, now 1962:

"In South Vietnam, the U.S. had 11,000 'advisers', 300 aircraft, 120 helicopters, heavy weapons, pilots flying combat missions, defoliants, and napalm.<sup>[46]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_in_the_Vietnam_War</sup>

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Want to know the REAL trouble....JFK was a Democrat back then. Today where would someone with his views fit?

---

Definitely. He was a bit conservative with taxes, got rid of the 90% rate, strong on military, literally thinking of launching the bomb figuring we would lose 30% or so of the US but wipe out Russia

---

Precisely what he DIDN'T do though did he.

Regardless of the unbearable pressures being put on him by the hawkish U.S. military leaders of the time.

But go ahead and put him down, if it helps prop up the human trash bin that inhabits the White House today.

---

Dude I don’t know why you took that as putting him down.

Who me? C'mon man. It's me you're talking to. I would've thought you knew me better by now. The wording was totally innocent, right? :rolleyes: :cool:

It was just a historical fact that he was ready and considered doing it. Kennedy has been judged rather saintly because of the bullet. Had he served out his term history may not have been so kind. He made bad calls and did stupid shit like all other presidents plus the fiasco of corrupting the vote would have been more in the front than it was.

He never got the chance to serve out his term so I guess we'll never know, right? He took on the war-mongering military heads and assumed the one posture that preserved the world as people knew it back then. Never said he was perfect, if you bothered to read the opening post. Listen.... I get it that you Trumpers will stop at nothing to build up your man at the expense of past Presidents, no matter what. But at least try to retain some sort of objectiveness while you're doing it.

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Thread diverted as usual.

Beginning to think Fats was right, 9 posts into the thread.
:thinking2:

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I don’t know your reading it wrong. I’ve said nothing about trump just you putting Kennedy on a pedestal in your opening stanza. You are right though, Kennedy did want troops out of Vietnam although there is some debate about it. Remember that was one of the many conspiracy theories on why he was killed. It’s odd tits, when we have brought up Obama’s policies compared to trump you have often stated the comparing of presidents gets old and I have said it’s how presidents are judged, yet here we are. We got off track because facts you don’t like were brought up about Camelot and crew. Would he have been elected if his father didn’t collude to corrupt the vote in the first place.

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Yeah bro. This is me putting JFK on a pedestal.

......I'm fully aware of the guy's faults as POTUS..........

JFK gets rightly criticized for things he did wrong, particularly during the early days of his presidency.



Also, care to reread the entire opening post and telling me again what the thread is about?

Yeah... all Presidencies can be shot holes through when looked at under the microscope.

But let's be real here. It's the mystique and the name that gets many people riled up more than anything else. It's the resentment reserved for those who are perceived to have gotten all the breaks in life and been fed with the silver spoon.

It tends to color everything completely the other way. Suddenly anything positive turns into a negative.

Jackie Kennedy once naively mentioned Camelot in an interview, and suddenly it became ready made cannon fodder for Kennedy haters.



Nothing mentioned here about how he righted the wrongs of the first part of his Presidency and made the decisions that prevented nuclear war back in '62.

No. Fuck... we can't have that. Let's concentrate on his rookie errors, and speculate about just how bad the nation would've been had he not been shot in '63.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

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Jong Un plays Trump like a yo-yo, Miles. He's gotten all the concessions from Trump no one's ever given him, and he's still dangling the prospect of nuclear buildup as the carrot for even more concessions.

He and his cohorts are laughing their asses off.

How's that verification process going, BTW? Oh right....... it isn't.

But wtf am I explaining this to you for. You've drunken the Kool-Aid long ago, and the narrative never changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

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Well 63 reports were out he wanted to pull out. Remember Eisenhower started involvement in Vietnam. Now I will say your points are valid miles, at the Eisenhower Kennedy period the CIA was chomping at the bit to get Vietnam but apparently Kennedy wanted to pull the plug leading to the conspiracy thing that the cia was involved in Kennedy’s killing.

80% of the Kennedy thing was media created. They couldn’t get enough. They did everything to show him in a positive light. Including putting down cameras when he was running around with the other babes. Damn the FBI had him by the balls. Now I like Kennedy I just look at it realistically. Lincoln is, after Washington my favorite president but Lincoln pretty much took a big steaming dump on the constitution, we can overlook that stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by walrus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

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Well 63 reports were out he wanted to pull out. Remember Eisenhower started involvement in Vietnam. Now I will say your points are valid miles, at the Eisenhower Kennedy period the CIA was chomping at the bit to get Vietnam but apparently Kennedy wanted to pull the plug leading to the conspiracy thing that the cia was involved in Kennedy’s killing.

80% of the Kennedy thing was media created. They couldn’t get enough. They did everything to show him in a positive light. Including putting down cameras when he was running around with the other babes. Damn the FBI had him by the balls. Now I like Kennedy I just look at it realistically. Lincoln is, after Washington my favorite president but Lincoln pretty much took a big steaming dump on the constitution, we can overlook that stuff.

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Yes, but I was just pointing out that Tito was wrong to suggest I was wrong, when the history is there is black and white and even color. I have read up a bit on Vietnam and of course watched that fantastic long version of the 10 part documentary series. A very complicated mess of a conflict, but it is factually true that Kennedy massively ramped it all up in the space of 3 years and then ordered a coup which led to more bloodshed. Why support a corrupt man in the first place and considering the result and how it was a civil war, he was not exactly Mr Peace or trying to solve the worlds problems in a decent way. He could be a plonker and mess up like everyone else seems to.

Plus with his personal failings and according to Hersch very odd habit of smuggling in women to the White House, just not a very good man. Plus if his wife was up to the same stuff as rumored it does not fit with my own values.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

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Jong Un plays Trump like a yo-yo, Miles. He's gotten all the concessions from Trump no one's ever given him, and he's still dangling the prospect of nuclear buildup as the carrot for even more concessions.

He and his cohorts are laughing their asses off.

How's that verification process going, BTW? Oh right....... it isn't.

But wtf am I explaining this to you for. You've drunken the Kool-Aid long ago, and the narrative never changes.

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But are there troops in the country building up year by year with more NK dead and more US troops dead? No.

I am drinking coffee. Clears the mind.

Kennedy was also the first candidate to use tv so efficiently. People who heard the Kennedy Nixon debate on the radio thought Nixon clearly one. People who saw it on TV thought Kennedy won. Nixon had a terrible fear of public speaking and would sweat like a pig and look very uncomfortable but he knew his shit. He was terribly paranoid and had low self esteem. He was winning that election (not Kennedy) by the biggest landslide and he still had to do watergate. Nixon was quite a man, lost so many runs but kept coming back. Could have been one of the great ones. At the height of impeachment he wasn’t sleeping and walking around the White House talking to portraits of the presidents. Probably in a psychotic break. I read several of his post President books and the guy really was a genius. I suppose many would argue that with me, I don’t know if they read his books.

Was Washington sending in troops to butcher Indians evil or did he just have enough of Indians attacking settlers which was left over from the British troops paying Indians for American scalps and more for the fetus of an American out of a women’s womb? Andrew Jackson fucking over Indians for access to gold when he had just set a deal with them, evil, or was the US in such dire straights it had to happen.

How about Hancock putting out those articles on John Adams having all kinds of weird sexual trysts when they were best friends but Hancock would do anything for that power. Then we could get into Hamilton and the shit he pulled as president. Who next you wanna talk Grant, he had a laundry list. We could do this all night, I got something on all of them James K Polk and illegal wars. This isn’t about making trump look good but if we are going to compare him with other presidents, let’s do it.

And I know we shouldn’t compare presidents but when Obama and trump met Obama told him NK is the biggest thread we are facing and War was a very real possibility. The White House was already figuring how much of Seoul would be lost until we could take out there offensive artillery, which was and is massive. What did trump give up? War games that lead to second best Korea getting bombed a few times? Do you think trump went into this thinking it was a sure thing or just try a different approach for the first time since the truce or cease fire. The tree top wars weren’t that long ago. I think it was a smart move. I say if Kim wants a Burger King we should give it to him. Burger King for bombs, let’s do it. Or would we rather potentially lose miles because we will take NK out but it’ll be a mess

Damn, B, you really read up on shit. Avid n shitz. John Adams did weird sexual shit? Damn. Nixon lived just 4 miles from an ex-poster on here. From 1975 until the late 80s. I've heard it was Upper Saddle River, NJ. Burning Hollow development. Nixon opened up China, but I think his biggest mistake was taking us off the gold standard you know the bretton woods deal