From how many fights should Ali have been DQ'ed for holding?

[Beanflicker]

I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

I'm not trying to diminish what he means to the sport, I just think people only remember the wars with Frazier, and the KO's of Foreman and Liston. They forget that, in general, he was a safety first, stick-and-move, and sometimes "jab and grab" kind of fighter. A lot of his fights can bore someone to tears.

But Ali's popularity and what he's done for the sport transcends styles and excitement.

[Beanflicker]

Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.

Can you even begin to comprehend how many great fighters (past and even present) first laced up boxing gloves because of Muhammad Ali?

How on earth would boxing be better without Ali??

Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. Muhammad Ali, Ray Leonard, Tyson, De La Hoya, Mayweather. These are the guys that inspired kids to beg their parents to sign them up in boxing classes.

[Dark Lord Al]

Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.

Can you even begin to comprehend how many great fighters (past and even present) first laced up boxing gloves because of Muhammad Ali?

How on earth would boxing be better without Ali??

Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. Muhammad Ali, Ray Leonard, Tyson, De La Hoya, Mayweather. These are the guys that inspired kids to beg their parents to sign them up in boxing classes.

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

[Beanflicker]

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

[Dark Lord Al]

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

[THE THIRD MAN]

People have to understand that Ali was a legend in his own lifetime while he was still fighting! By the time of his forced lay off from boxing he was already a polarizing figure not only in sport, but in politics as well. Had Ali never fought again after 1967 he still would be regarded as one of the most famous sports people of all time.
Ali had to continue fighting, he had to be in the limelight, there was simply to much money to be made. I have no doubt that Ali's outside ring activities had a negative impact on his ability to perform in the ring, in fact i would go as far to say that his boxing career was almost secondary to just being Muhammad Ali in the first place. Myth and legend were melded together with the Foreman fight and subsequent win, this has immortalized Ali forever in world sports and it has made him one of the most recognizable figures of the 20th century. Ali had to keep winning at all costs, his own legend had become bigger than the man himself. If he had lost to Foreman then he most likely would've retired early and some of these tactics would not be an issue. I believe he should've retired after the Thriller In Manila with Frazier. I wouldn't be too critical of Ali and his holding or any other tactic, be critical of the people who pressured him to continue fighting when he clearly should not have been due to outside influences, distractions and diminishing ability. The peak of his career was 1965-1967, he was forced to stop at least 2 years before that peak was due to end. (You tell me if Frazier would've beaten Ali in in 1968 or 1969?) Judge him on when he was a boxer in the 60's not the larger than life figure he was to become later.

[brocktonblockbust]

great thread and Im glad I posed the question. Thanks to all. Kinda surprised to see so many people critical of Ali, which I am as well.

Mainly, to harrass Frazier and call so many terrible names to Liston and Foreman, now look at him. Now someone needs to call HIM names, make HIM feel bad, rub HIS head and leer and jeer and call HIM a gorilla, a mummy, an ugly bear, an acorn, so ugly, etc.

That wasnt just selling tickets my friends. He seriously hurt peoples' feelings or atleast tried to. That coming from a Muslim who says all human beings are equal and that Islam is the religion of tolerance and peace.

[Master]

Laugh all you want about Ali's current state, if it makes you feel happy, Ali will always be the greatest heavyweight ever.

To answer your question about the same number as Rocky should have been disqualified for his illegal and dirty fighting.

[Dark Lord Al]

Laugh all you want about Ali's current state, if it makes you feel happy, Ali will always be the greatest heavyweight ever.

To answer your question about the same number as Rocky should have been disqualified for his illegal and dirty fighting.

Not im my opinion he wasnt my friend.

Clay told us he was the greatest , but it doesnt mean its true.
Johnny Nelson was called the ENTERTAINER and he could send a glass eye to sleep.
Clay also called Patterson the RABBIT , but i dont think Floyd dug holes in peoples lawns, nor did he crap round turds.
Do you see my point ?

[Dark Lord Al]

Laugh all you want about Ali's current state, if it makes you feel happy, Ali will always be the greatest heavyweight ever.

To answer your question about the same number as Rocky should have been disqualified for his illegal and dirty fighting.

Not im my opinion he wasnt my friend.

Clay told us he was the greatest , but it doesnt mean its true.
Johnny Nelson was called the ENTERTAINER and he could send a glass eye to sleep.
Clay also called Patterson the RABBIT , but i dont think Floyd dug holes in peoples lawns, nor did he crap round turds.
Do you see my point ?

You don't agree?

[IamInuit]

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

Louis is my favourite hev all time but Ali's foot print imo is a much larger one.

Holding has been a part of boxing since the end of grappling in the sport. Illegal yes and yet employed all the time. Boxing has not evolved in that regard as its rare to see a point deduction for it in this era or hear the once used ref phrase of punch and get out. Has Wlad ever lost a point?

The holding behind the head and hitting by Ali pissed me off the most and I remember him being warned multiple times in fights and never losing a point.

[El Kabong]

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali

[El Kabong]

Muhammad Ali wasn't original in how he acted...he was original in style, for a heavyweight simply due to athletic ability but....



That man was who Ali modeled himself after. Ali just did it in an age when there were tvs in every household. Without Jack Johnson there would be no Ali.

[El Kabong]

Floyd Mayweather Jr. is even trying to be the Jack Johnson of this era! STILL over 100 years later, and the P4P #1 fighter is trying to beJack Johnson. Jack fought with an annoying style, he talked loads of trash, he laughed off hatred, he did things specifically to irk people, to push buttons. Ali copied him...he just tried to bring politics into the spotlight to be different....Jack Johnson didn't give 2 shits about politics.

Ali joined the "Nation of Islam" & dodged the draft....whoopty fucking doo. Jack Johnson had sex with white women & sped in his car through the rural south in the 1900's with no NAACP & no group of idiot thugs following Elijah Muhammad to "have his back"

Jack Johnson even has a better movie than Ali documentary (Unforgivable Blackness) & biopic (The Great White Hope).

Without Jack Johnson there's no Ali

[Dark Lord Al]

Muhammad Ali wasn't original in how he acted...he was original in style, for a heavyweight simply due to athletic ability but....



That man was who Ali modeled himself after. Ali just did it in an age when there were tvs in every household. Without Jack Johnson there would be no Ali.

To be honest it should be about the boxing not the other bullshit