Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier

[Master]

I just don't understand why so much stock is put into Haye at heavyweight based on beating up John Ruiz. It has to be that because he certainly has not done anything else there, literally.

Do not listen to Max. In his eyes Have beat Ali even David himself would disagree.

Yes I can just imagine David Haye being REAL intimidated by a guy who went balls to the wall with Doug Jones, got plastered by Henry Cooper and realistically got beaten by such luminary opponents like Bum Jimmy Young and bum beater Earnie "I can't even box" Shavers, for which they were robbed of their efforts.

Haye could not hold a candle to such overacheievers.

All his athleticism, speed, reflexes, elusiveness, counterpunching skills and power would be near worthless against those boys, but not Ali, he doesn't need any real skills, just heart and balls, the "unmeasurable" quantities.

Carl Fucking Thompson - you ass wipe.

[Max Power]

I just don't understand why so much stock is put into Haye at heavyweight based on beating up John Ruiz. It has to be that because he certainly has not done anything else there, literally.

Do not listen to Max. In his eyes Have beat Ali even David himself would disagree.

Yes I can just imagine David Haye being REAL intimidated by a guy who went balls to the wall with Doug Jones, got plastered by Henry Cooper and realistically got beaten by such luminary opponents like Bum Jimmy Young and bum beater Earnie "I can't even box" Shavers, for which they were robbed of their efforts.

Haye could not hold a candle to such overacheievers.

All his athleticism, speed, reflexes, elusiveness, counterpunching skills and power would be near worthless against those boys, but not Ali, he doesn't need any real skills, just heart and balls, the "unmeasurable" quantities.

Carl Fucking Thompson - you ass wipe.

Oh, yeah right! As if Carl Thompson was not a better opponent than most of Ali's early opponents.

OTNB logic, a boxer is a bum because they beat a great boxer which also makes him a bum. Real smart.

[Master]

So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?

You get more stupidier everyday.

Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.

You were saying.....

[Max Power]

So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?

You get more stupidier everyday.

Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.

You were saying.....

I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.

Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!

Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.

It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.

Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ!

[brocktonblockbust]

So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?

You get more stupidier everyday.

Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.

You were saying.....

I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.

Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!

Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.

It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.

Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ!

no, lets all hang rubbish on Haye because he is so utterly inactive, arrogant, never fought anybody great, went in with an injured toe, backed out of fights, and talked trash.

[Max Power]

So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?

You get more stupidier everyday.

Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.

You were saying.....

I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.

Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!

Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.

It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.

Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ!

no, lets all hang rubbish on Haye because he is so utterly inactive, arrogant, never fought anybody great, went in with an injured toe, backed out of fights, and talked trash.

That's better.. Except "Never fought great opponents". What level of competition would you define as great? Who should Haye have fought? How do you know that Haye's opponents were no good? Have you watched all of them? What about his opponents opponents records? What were the weight differentials when he fought unlimited (HW)?

Seems to me that David Haye has a pretty excellent little boxing record. And has some fought A LOT of great fighters if you accept great to mean they were "great boxers". After winning championship as CW (a real small feat that one) and beating top cruiserweights like Mormeck, he proceeded to then step up to HW where he, unfortunately because of the era, even at 6'3" and 220-210 lbs (the same size as Ali except much more ripped at that weight) had to ALWAYS face contenders that were taller and heavier. The guy outboxed 7'0" 320lb Valuev, the greatest size differential in any HW boxing fight. Proceeded to knock out 4 more good opponents in Harrison, Barret, Ruiz and Chisora and survive Wladimir Klitschko.

I wouldn't rubbish Haye's record because it's better objectively than the 70's version alone of George Foreman's!

[Mr140]

Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.

[Max Power]

Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.

What a load of rubbish. Boxers fight, boxers bleed, they are happier when they win and sad when they lose. That much is ALWAYS the same from generation to generation. What the Klitschko's did is not normal, it is extraordinary. And most of their opponents are exceptional boxers, like David Haye for example.

Muhammad Ali's best win was vs a guy who COULD BARELY BOX at 218lbs who had absolutely nothing but a hard punch! Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skillset too to back it up.

How anybody cannot draw this comparison is outrageous!

And now you bummify the 80's era too by claiming today is only "marginally better" than that era?

It's unreal! Every objective person can see IMMEDIATELY that boxing only STARTED to become a professional sport, like basically every other sport too, in the 80's. Yet you will try to spin it that these guys couldn't hold a candle to previous eras?

Passing of the torch, it was OBVIOUS by the Lewis/Vitali fight that the Klitschko's are comparable. It was said of the 90's exactly when old Larry Holmes and old George Foreman stood strong in the 90's that imagine what they would have done in their primes vs guys like Lennox, Tyson and Holyfield. And it's the same that's being said now with the Klitschko's vs OLD Lennox Lewis. Haye vs OLD Thomson. Haye performing similar to OLD Holyfield vs Valuev.

What is overwhelming evidence for experience compensating somewhat for athleticism, and most often WEIGHT compensating as well, is being turned around as some sort of PROOF that every generation of boxers are getting worse!

NO generation is SPECIAL overall. The only thing that happens is that the sport itself evolves, and every generation of boxers gets better and better over time in general!

[Max Power]

Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.

What a load of rubbish. Boxers fight, boxers bleed, they are happier when they win and sad when they lose. That much is ALWAYS the same from generation to generation. What the Klitschko's did is not normal, it is extraordinary. And most of their opponents are exceptional boxers, like David Haye for example.

Muhammad Ali's best win was vs a guy who COULD BARELY BOX at 218lbs who had absolutely nothing but a hard punch! Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skillset too to back it up.

How anybody cannot draw this comparison is outrageous!

And now you bummify the 80's era too by claiming today is only "marginally better" than that era?

It's unreal! Every objective person can see IMMEDIATELY that boxing only STARTED to become a professional sport, like basically every other sport too, in the 80's. Yet you will try to spin it that these guys couldn't hold a candle to previous eras?

Passing of the torch, it was OBVIOUS by the Lewis/Vitali fight that the Klitschko's are comparable. It was said of the 90's exactly when old Larry Holmes and old George Foreman stood strong in the 90's that imagine what they would have done in their primes vs guys like Lennox, Tyson and Holyfield. And it's the same that's being said now with the Klitschko's vs OLD Lennox Lewis. Haye vs OLD Thomson. Haye performing similar to OLD Holyfield vs Valuev.

What is overwhelming evidence for experience compensating somewhat for athleticism, and most often WEIGHT compensating as well, is being turned around as some sort of PROOF that every generation of boxers are getting worse!

NO generation is SPECIAL overall. The only thing that happens is that the sport itself evolves, and every generation of boxers gets better and better over time in general!

How could it be otherwise!

[Master]

Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!


You are insane! They are not bums but turds.

[TitoFan]

These threads are fun to read. It's starts off decently with a mythical matchup between a prime Holyfield and a prime Frazier..... and somehow gets derailed into Max claiming that David Haye (of all people) would beat Ali. Priceless shit!!!

First the topic at hand:

Joe was not the.... what was it.... "feather-fisted, blind, punching bag bum"..... that a couple of deluded posters on here disrespectfully make him out to be. That is beyond ludicrous. Joe Frazier was heavyweight champion of the world, and accumulated plenty of knockouts himself until he pretty much got ruined between his fights with Ali and his massacre at the hands of Big George Foreman.

I'd still have to favor Holyfield, if only because of Holyfield's size, chin, and heart. Frazier would've connected on Holyfield, and maybe wobbled him once or twice. But Holyfield's sheer physicality would've eventually worn out Frazier, for a late round TKO win.

Now on to Haye vs. Ali........

Are you mad?!?!?!?


Also, let me put an argument to rest right here and now:

The difference between Ali's opponents, Frazier's opponents, and Wlad's opponents is the following:

Neither Ali's opponents nor Frazier's opponents entered the ring already beaten, with a load of shit in their pants and empty space where their balls used to be. Wlad's opponents, Haye included, do a lot of talking and promising. But just like politicians, when they enter the ring all they have in mind is to find the nearest corner to lay down, or how to survive with the least amount of pain so they can collect their unearned checks.

What they don't realize is that Wlad himself is scared shitless of taking one on the chin, thus resulting in boring, pawing, grappling, clutching, mauling fights.

[Max Power]

Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!


You are insane! They are not bums but turds.

Yes that is a very objective assessment right there.

Guys like Jerry Quarry is a quality opponent.

David Haye is a turd.

George Foreman had underrated skills..

But Bermane Stiverne is a piece of crap.

I know you don't believe any of it. It's unbelievable.

[Max Power]

These threads are fun to read. It's starts off decently with a mythical matchup between a prime Holyfield and a prime Frazier..... and somehow gets derailed into Max claiming that David Haye (of all people) would beat Ali. Priceless shit!!!

Holyfield vs Frazier and Haye vs Ali are total mismatches in favour of Haye and Holyfield. Objectively speaking there is no way possible that the oldies could beat these guys.

First the topic at hand:

Joe was not the.... what was it.... "feather-fisted, blind, punching bag bum"..... that a couple of deluded posters on here disrespectfully make him out to be. That is beyond ludicrous. Joe Frazier was heavyweight champion of the world, and accumulated plenty of knockouts himself until he pretty much got ruined between his fights with Ali and his massacre at the hands of Big George Foreman.

Joe Frazier was part blind, undeniable fact.
Frazier was a hard puncher vs CW's, a featherfist vs HW's. Stats are facts.
Frazier was hit easily. Pull up any Frazier video where he faced a non-bummy opponent, randomly click on any time of the fight and see how long it takes him to get hit.
Frazier is not a bum. He had a good record. Were he to fight today he would be less than a bum at either CW or HW and would never be licenced to box anyway.
Joe Frazier was HW champion of the world in the early 1970's!!! The year is nearly 2015.
Joe Frazier scored plenty of knockouts vs CW's and bums. Vs HW's with decent records, Frazier managed to KO less than half of his opponents.
His fight with Ali, an even weaker featherfist, which he won and his first KO loss to Foreman who could barely box ruined him. Lennox Lewis was 2ce outboxed by lesser opponents and then knocked out. Wladimir Klitschko met demise 3 times. These guys came back to reclaim the title after being upset by very powerful boxers. But Frazier was done in by these guys? Get real!

I'd still have to favor Holyfield, if only because of Holyfield's size, chin, and heart. Frazier would've connected on Holyfield, and maybe wobbled him once or twice. But Holyfield's sheer physicality would've eventually worn out Frazier, for a late round TKO win.

Holyfield was not the hardest boxer to hit. Frazier might land some punches. Holyfield would never flinch at a Frazier punch, the guy took millions of bombs from superheavyweight punchers and was rarely ever knocked down. He would demolish Holyfield so easily it would not be worthwhile.

It's obvious that Frazier would never enter the ring with Holyfield because he would lose to far worse opposition in his era before he ever reached Evander.

Now on to Haye vs. Ali........

Are you mad?!?!?!?

Deadly serious of course. Declaring the opposite would be madness.

Haye is possibly the fastest HW in history, faster than Ali at any comparable weight.
Haye is ultra slick with possibly the most outstanding reflexes of any HW in history. Ali 1 was a runner who was hit by the slowest punches as soon as he stayed in range. Ali 2 was a slow plodding overweight who was smashed from pillar to post in nearly all of his fights.
Haye knocked out almost every opponent he ever faced and 4 boxers who significantly outweighed him as well. Ali never once scored a proper knockout over any decent opponent.
Haye was never outboxed ever except by WK who out-talled and outweighed him.
Ali was outboxed and in reality lost atleast 10 or 11 fights and was gift assisted/struggled in many others.
Haye fought much higher quality boxers than Muhammad Ali.

I'd say it's a landslide for Haye. He would totally clown and knockout any version of Ali who would never land a significant punch on him. Fact!

Also, let me put an argument to rest right here and now:

The difference between Ali's opponents, Frazier's opponents, and Wlad's opponents is the following:

Neither Ali's opponents nor Frazier's opponents entered the ring already beaten, with a load of shit in their pants and empty space where their balls used to be. Wlad's opponents, Haye included, do a lot of talking and promising. But just like politicians, when they enter the ring all they have in mind is to find the nearest corner to lay down, or how to survive with the least amount of pain so they can collect their unearned checks.

Ah yes, of course, one after another, every boxer that has faced Klitschko and LOST just didn't try hard enough to win.

Of course that's the reason.

But all the opponents that faced Ali and Frazier and LOST it was because they were quality boxers but Ali and Frazier were too great.

Yeah that's gotta be it! LOL

Maybe it had something to do with the fact that Wladimir Klitschko has an almost invincible style+attributes and Frazier and Ali could barely box and were piss weak!

What they don't realize is that Wlad himself is scared shitless of taking one on the chin, thus resulting in boring, pawing, grappling, clutching, mauling fights.

Oh, so TitoFan here KNOWS that Wladimir Klitschko is scared to take a punch on his weak chin but none of the opponents or their coaches are privy to such information who actually fight him. The solution is SO simple, just tap that chin and he's gone. Except HITTING Wladimir Klitschko is extremely difficult as evidenced by punch stats. Except almost every opponent has landed atleast 1 good+solid shot on Klitschko which has sent him to the canvas statistically one of the FEWEST times for any HW.

Maybe you should impart your wisdom to the next WK opponent then so we can see a change of the throne and save boxing from boring old Wladimir

Rarely do I see such utter rubbish!

[Master]

Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!


You are insane! They are not bums but turds.

Yes that is a very objective assessment right there.

Guys like Jerry Quarry is a quality opponent.

David Haye is a turd.

George Foreman had underrated skills..

But Bermane Stiverne is a piece of crap.

I know you don't believe any of it. It's unbelievable.

Haye fought like a turd against Wlad.

Stiverne has not fought Wlad yet.

[Max Power]

Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!


You are insane! They are not bums but turds.

Yes that is a very objective assessment right there.

Guys like Jerry Quarry is a quality opponent.

David Haye is a turd.

George Foreman had underrated skills..

But Bermane Stiverne is a piece of crap.

I know you don't believe any of it. It's unbelievable.

Haye fought like a turd against Wlad.

Stiverne has not fought Wlad yet.

Haye looks good against his other opponents..

Basically ALL of Wlad's opponents looked good against their other opponents, but not against Wladimir.

Conclusion= It's Wlad's credit that MAKES them look bad. Klitschko's style nullifies and shuts down the opponents style.

Obviously.