question about martinez

[killersheep]

It was a long time ago Martinez a different fighter then...Though he has always had the hands down style...If Pavlik was any quicker Martinez would have gotten caught more...Possibly KO'd...There were a few shots that he showed he felt....He stopped his showboating ASAP..Until Kelly was cut on the right eye...

Yep definately 3 acts in that fight

ACT I. Martinez uses his speed and lateral movement to potshot and control

ACT II. Pavlik counters jab over jab and lands a few strong rights.

ACT III. A cut, blinded, and tired Pavlik has nothing left to retaliate with, but hangs in for the duration, Martinez takes is back under control.

Daxx, how much credit do you Martinez for this win?

TBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to think

What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?

I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....

The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)

Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?

For being as fast as he is at 35, I have to give him a lot of credit he came in the smaller man against a very very strong Middleweight ( who also happened to be the champ ) Martinez has a pretty good record IMO, he straight up got robbed twice against Cintron, and did very very well against Williams. I mean I don't know who else at 160 or 154 he would have to fight?

If Pavlik chooses not to take the rematch clause who would he have to beat at 160 or 154 to prove his ability and improve his resume?

[DaxxKahn]

Yep definately 3 acts in that fight

ACT I. Martinez uses his speed and lateral movement to potshot and control

ACT II. Pavlik counters jab over jab and lands a few strong rights.

ACT III. A cut, blinded, and tired Pavlik has nothing left to retaliate with, but hangs in for the duration, Martinez takes is back under control.

Daxx, how much credit do you Martinez for this win?

TBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to think

What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?

I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....

The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)

Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?

For being as fast as he is at 35, I have to give him a lot of credit he came in the smaller man against a very very strong Middleweight ( who also happened to be the champ ) Martinez has a pretty good record IMO, he straight up got robbed twice against Cintron, and did very very well against Williams. I mean I don't know who else at 160 or 154 he would have to fight?

If Pavlik chooses not to take the rematch clause who would he have to beat at 160 or 154 to prove his ability and improve his resume?

I personally don';t know why he would want to stay at MW just for that reason...154 is starting to pick up again...that is where the money is!!!....Like you said he is 35...not many years left this is the time to cash in while your name is hot....

I give him credit for being the smaller man (Maybe I said it in another thread) and like I said he came in from another weight class and beat the champion...Not a title holder but Champion....have to give credit for that but I am just not sold on him yet as a superstar....I mean someone posted on another thread or maybe this one that he is top 5 P4P?.....This win does not put him in the top 5

[killersheep]

TBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to think

What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?

I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....

The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)

Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?

For being as fast as he is at 35, I have to give him a lot of credit he came in the smaller man against a very very strong Middleweight ( who also happened to be the champ ) Martinez has a pretty good record IMO, he straight up got robbed twice against Cintron, and did very very well against Williams. I mean I don't know who else at 160 or 154 he would have to fight?

If Pavlik chooses not to take the rematch clause who would he have to beat at 160 or 154 to prove his ability and improve his resume?

I personally don';t know why he would want to stay at MW just for that reason...154 is starting to pick up again...that is where the money is!!!....Like you said he is 35...not many years left this is the time to cash in while your name is hot....

I give him credit for being the smaller man (Maybe I said it in another thread) and like I said he came in from another weight class and beat the champion...Not a title holder but Champion....have to give credit for that but I am just not sold on him yet as a superstar....I mean someone posted on another thread or maybe this one that he is top 5 P4P?.....This win does not put him in the top 5

Yeah I hear ya, it's pretty common for people to blow up fighters after a big win. The only guy in his weightclass range (I'm assuming 154-160) that I think really trumps him style vs. style is Foreman and that's because of his own speed and movement. Something that's really telling though are the faces of Martinez's last opponents. People keep saying he's hittable, he gets hit WAY too much and all that, but he's not marking maybe he has that Andrade gene?

Pavlik - 3 cuts caused by punches (Martinez mouse under one eye)

Williams - 2 cuts caused by punches (Martinez unmarked)

Cintron - Small cut, and swollen eye from punches (Martinez unmarked)

Bunema - both eyes almost swollen shut (Martinez unmarked)

[DaxxKahn]

For being as fast as he is at 35, I have to give him a lot of credit he came in the smaller man against a very very strong Middleweight ( who also happened to be the champ ) Martinez has a pretty good record IMO, he straight up got robbed twice against Cintron, and did very very well against Williams. I mean I don't know who else at 160 or 154 he would have to fight?

If Pavlik chooses not to take the rematch clause who would he have to beat at 160 or 154 to prove his ability and improve his resume?

I personally don';t know why he would want to stay at MW just for that reason...154 is starting to pick up again...that is where the money is!!!....Like you said he is 35...not many years left this is the time to cash in while your name is hot....

I give him credit for being the smaller man (Maybe I said it in another thread) and like I said he came in from another weight class and beat the champion...Not a title holder but Champion....have to give credit for that but I am just not sold on him yet as a superstar....I mean someone posted on another thread or maybe this one that he is top 5 P4P?.....This win does not put him in the top 5

Yeah I hear ya, it's pretty common for people to blow up fighters after a big win. The only guy in his weightclass range (I'm assuming 154-160) that I think really trumps him style vs. style is Foreman and that's because of his own speed and movement. Something that's really telling though are the faces of Martinez's last opponents. People keep saying he's hittable, he gets hit WAY too much and all that, but he's not marking maybe he has that Andrade gene?

Pavlik - 3 cuts caused by punches (Martinez mouse under one eye)

Williams - 2 cuts caused by punches (Martinez unmarked)

Cintron - Small cut, and swollen eye from punches (Martinez unmarked)

Bunema - both eyes almost swollen shut (Martinez unmarked)

I don't know of the punchstats of past fights but Pavlik barely hit him...Though he did have a mouse under one eye....He may be one of those guys who just don't swell and cut easily....

As for the damage he inflicts on others well we know he is not a hard hitter he only has like a 50% KO ratio but I think he is one of those guys who twist the glove as he lands...He is already on the backslide when he lands he avoids shots well...Like I said before I think that is what catches these guys off guard....BUT none of these guys are really fast either...I mentioned Foreman in another thread about facing Martinez....Not saying he would beat him just that Martinez would not get away with keeping his hands down all the time....I would love to see how he reacts to a fight where he is the slower man?

[killersheep]

I personally don';t know why he would want to stay at MW just for that reason...154 is starting to pick up again...that is where the money is!!!....Like you said he is 35...not many years left this is the time to cash in while your name is hot....

I give him credit for being the smaller man (Maybe I said it in another thread) and like I said he came in from another weight class and beat the champion...Not a title holder but Champion....have to give credit for that but I am just not sold on him yet as a superstar....I mean someone posted on another thread or maybe this one that he is top 5 P4P?.....This win does not put him in the top 5

Yeah I hear ya, it's pretty common for people to blow up fighters after a big win. The only guy in his weightclass range (I'm assuming 154-160) that I think really trumps him style vs. style is Foreman and that's because of his own speed and movement. Something that's really telling though are the faces of Martinez's last opponents. People keep saying he's hittable, he gets hit WAY too much and all that, but he's not marking maybe he has that Andrade gene?

Pavlik - 3 cuts caused by punches (Martinez mouse under one eye)

Williams - 2 cuts caused by punches (Martinez unmarked)

Cintron - Small cut, and swollen eye from punches (Martinez unmarked)

Bunema - both eyes almost swollen shut (Martinez unmarked)

I don't know of the punchstats of past fights but Pavlik barely hit him...Though he did have a mouse under one eye....He may be one of those guys who just don't swell and cut easily....

As for the damage he inflicts on others well we know he is not a hard hitter he only has like a 50% KO ratio but I think he is one of those guys who twist the glove as he lands...He is already on the backslide when he lands he avoids shots well...Like I said before I think that is what catches these guys off guard....BUT none of these guys are really fast either...I mentioned Foreman in another thread about facing Martinez....Not saying he would beat him just that Martinez would not get away with keeping his hands down all the time....I would love to see how he reacts to a fight where he is the slower man?

I think only Foreman and maybe Danny Jacobs fit that bill (as to making Martinez the slower man). I think he has shown he can be competitive at the elite level and is due credit for being what he is. If he had been in a more profitable market for longer in his career he certainly have had more opportunities to make his case. Fighters from Argentina usually have a hard time getting the big fights unless they are considered walkovers.

As for Martinez, I think he can hit plenty hard, but he tends to focus on conserving energy in everything he does, from his punch output to keeping his hands down, afterall how can you showboat when you're gassed? I don't really care if he's on a p4p list or not because that's completely subject unless you use Hughley's magic p4p formula, but equal in speculation is saying that couldn't have adjusted again later in the fight or that Pavlik wouldn't have gassed out, it's all speculation.

According to Compubox

Pavlik - 164/533 31% Total punches, 77/339 Jabs 23%, 87/194 Power punches 45%
Martinez - 230/686 34% Total Punches, 58/302 19%, 172/384 power punches 45%

New Page 1

[DaxxKahn]

Yeah I hear ya, it's pretty common for people to blow up fighters after a big win. The only guy in his weightclass range (I'm assuming 154-160) that I think really trumps him style vs. style is Foreman and that's because of his own speed and movement. Something that's really telling though are the faces of Martinez's last opponents. People keep saying he's hittable, he gets hit WAY too much and all that, but he's not marking maybe he has that Andrade gene?

Pavlik - 3 cuts caused by punches (Martinez mouse under one eye)

Williams - 2 cuts caused by punches (Martinez unmarked)

Cintron - Small cut, and swollen eye from punches (Martinez unmarked)

Bunema - both eyes almost swollen shut (Martinez unmarked)

I don't know of the punchstats of past fights but Pavlik barely hit him...Though he did have a mouse under one eye....He may be one of those guys who just don't swell and cut easily....

As for the damage he inflicts on others well we know he is not a hard hitter he only has like a 50% KO ratio but I think he is one of those guys who twist the glove as he lands...He is already on the backslide when he lands he avoids shots well...Like I said before I think that is what catches these guys off guard....BUT none of these guys are really fast either...I mentioned Foreman in another thread about facing Martinez....Not saying he would beat him just that Martinez would not get away with keeping his hands down all the time....I would love to see how he reacts to a fight where he is the slower man?

I think only Foreman and maybe Danny Jacobs fit that bill (as to making Martinez the slower man). I think he has shown he can be competitive at the elite level and is due credit for being what he is. If he had been in a more profitable market for longer in his career he certainly have had more opportunities to make his case. Fighters from Argentina usually have a hard time getting the big fights unless they are considered walkovers.

As for Martinez, I think he can hit plenty hard, but he tends to focus on conserving energy in everything he does, from his punch output to keeping his hands down, afterall how can you showboat when you're gassed? I don't really care if he's on a p4p list or not because that's completely subject unless you use Hughley's magic p4p formula, but equal in speculation is saying that couldn't have adjusted again later in the fight or that Pavlik wouldn't have gassed out, it's all speculation.

According to Compubox

Pavlik - 164/533 31% Total punches, 77/339 Jabs 23%, 87/194 Power punches 45%
Martinez - 230/686 34% Total Punches, 58/302 19%, 172/384 power punches 45%

New Page 1

We will see what happens...I can't say anything bad about the guy other then he is a bit arrogant and showboats too much but other then that he is a good fighter....I just need to see more of him at the top top tier...I only seen Cintron, Williams and Pavlik recently...I seen the loss to Maragrito and a few scattered fights here and there....I never thought much of Cintron, IMO Williams has trouble with mover and boxers like he did with Quintana the first time and the Pavlik fight was just crazy...Winning getting beat then the cut going his way.....

So I want to see him with a guy that is fair to him.....Size, close to speed, and who is a pure boxer....Though choices are slim....I actually would like to see him Vs Cotto....A guy who attacks the Body....I would like to see how Martinez does once his main asset is taken away....How is he when he has to slow down and is in a position he cant fight with his hands down so low....

[killersheep]

I don't know of the punchstats of past fights but Pavlik barely hit him...Though he did have a mouse under one eye....He may be one of those guys who just don't swell and cut easily....

As for the damage he inflicts on others well we know he is not a hard hitter he only has like a 50% KO ratio but I think he is one of those guys who twist the glove as he lands...He is already on the backslide when he lands he avoids shots well...Like I said before I think that is what catches these guys off guard....BUT none of these guys are really fast either...I mentioned Foreman in another thread about facing Martinez....Not saying he would beat him just that Martinez would not get away with keeping his hands down all the time....I would love to see how he reacts to a fight where he is the slower man?

I think only Foreman and maybe Danny Jacobs fit that bill (as to making Martinez the slower man). I think he has shown he can be competitive at the elite level and is due credit for being what he is. If he had been in a more profitable market for longer in his career he certainly have had more opportunities to make his case. Fighters from Argentina usually have a hard time getting the big fights unless they are considered walkovers.

As for Martinez, I think he can hit plenty hard, but he tends to focus on conserving energy in everything he does, from his punch output to keeping his hands down, afterall how can you showboat when you're gassed? I don't really care if he's on a p4p list or not because that's completely subject unless you use Hughley's magic p4p formula, but equal in speculation is saying that couldn't have adjusted again later in the fight or that Pavlik wouldn't have gassed out, it's all speculation.

According to Compubox

Pavlik - 164/533 31% Total punches, 77/339 Jabs 23%, 87/194 Power punches 45%
Martinez - 230/686 34% Total Punches, 58/302 19%, 172/384 power punches 45%

New Page 1

We will see what happens...I can't say anything bad about the guy other then he is a bit arrogant and showboats too much but other then that he is a good fighter....I just need to see more of him at the top top tier...I only seen Cintron, Williams and Pavlik recently...I seen the loss to Maragrito and a few scattered fights here and there....I never thought much of Cintron, IMO Williams has trouble with mover and boxers like he did with Quintana the first time and the Pavlik fight was just crazy...Winning getting beat then the cut going his way.....

So I want to see him with a guy that is fair to him.....Size, close to speed, and who is a pure boxer....Though choices are slim....I actually would like to see him Vs Cotto....A guy who attacks the Body....I would like to see how Martinez does once his main asset is taken away....How is he when he has to slow down and is in a position he cant fight with his hands down so low....

Fair enough, maybe the Cotto/Foreman winner can fight Martinez? Either way those guys both have something to offer him in terms of challenge.

[Galaxy]

It was a long time ago Martinez a different fighter then...Though he has always had the hands down style...If Pavlik was any quicker Martinez would have gotten caught more...Possibly KO'd...There were a few shots that he showed he felt....He stopped his showboating ASAP..Until Kelly was cut on the right eye...

Yep definately 3 acts in that fight

ACT I. Martinez uses his speed and lateral movement to potshot and control

ACT II. Pavlik counters jab over jab and lands a few strong rights.

ACT III. A cut, blinded, and tired Pavlik has nothing left to retaliate with, but hangs in for the duration, Martinez takes is back under control.

Daxx, how much credit do you Martinez for this win?

TBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to think

What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?

I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....

The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)

Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?

But add in his fights with Cintron & Williams & its an impressive run of fights!!!

[DaxxKahn]

Yep definately 3 acts in that fight

ACT I. Martinez uses his speed and lateral movement to potshot and control

ACT II. Pavlik counters jab over jab and lands a few strong rights.

ACT III. A cut, blinded, and tired Pavlik has nothing left to retaliate with, but hangs in for the duration, Martinez takes is back under control.

Daxx, how much credit do you Martinez for this win?

TBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to think

What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?

I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....

The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)

Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?

But add in his fights with Cintron & Williams & its an impressive run of fights!!!

Agreed...I am just not sold on him as elite yet...I think he is a world class fighter who has the ability to upset anyone near his division but I won't say he is P4P or is he the best fighter even at 154

[killersheep]

TBH I am not sure...I mean shit how can you not give a guy his deserved credit for winning the MW championship at a weight class not truly his but on the other hand....you have to think

What IF the cut did not happen?
What IF Pavlik had not been so inactive and fighting only his mandatories over the last year?
Was this the BEST version of Kelly?

I am tough on fighters when it comes to big wins who don't have a really impressive past resume.....I give them more credit for the big win after I see what they do next....If they rematch and Martinez wins again then no way not to say...Kelly had an off night and Martinez had a great one....

The middle rounds Martinez seemed to be baffled after Pavlik seemed to figure him out....Martinez had no plan B (Neither did Pavlik but)

Great win for Martinez but is he really nothing more then just speedy?

But add in his fights with Cintron & Williams & its an impressive run of fights!!!

Agreed...I am just not sold on him as elite yet...I think he is a world class fighter who has the ability to upset anyone near his division but I won't say he is P4P or is he the best fighter even at 154

Who do you have ahead of him at 154? Light middle is really weak right now, there's some upcoming young guns, but the old guard has been really inactive.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Will Martinez move back to 154?

[killersheep]

Will Martinez move back to 154?

His camp is debating that very question right now.

[DaxxKahn]

But add in his fights with Cintron & Williams & its an impressive run of fights!!!

Agreed...I am just not sold on him as elite yet...I think he is a world class fighter who has the ability to upset anyone near his division but I won't say he is P4P or is he the best fighter even at 154

Who do you have ahead of him at 154? Light middle is really weak right now, there's some upcoming young guns, but the old guard has been really inactive.

Cotto I put ahead of him....I mentioned somewhere on the forum that IMO Cotto has the perfect style to KO Martinez...Sergio moves a lot and depends on it to keep his opp off....Cotto knows how to cut the ring off...He has big body shots.....He will slow Martinez down....Martinez not a guy who can fight off ropes or is he comfortable in close.....Cotto once slowing him down would either force him to stand and fight or shell up on the ropes....Similar to the Malignaggi bout where he chases and beats him up but I don't think Martinez is a durable as Paulie was back then..

We already spoke of Foreman who IMO beats him just as fast and younger...Martinez I noticed in the Pavlik fight can not keep the gas on all 12 rds....He also does not have a really high output in punches..

Depending on what Version of Spinks shows up is another close one....He has a rematch with Williams due...Though they might just do that at MW.....If Williams rematch W Quintana showed us anything that is Williams comes more prepared for rematches....

Those are 4 good fights for him...I favor him only over Spinks but still good fight......People rather see him fight Cotto, Foreman, Williams as far as earning potential then just abt any MW..

Plus a few WW guys will be coming up in the next year....

Like I stated he is 35 and time for paychecks are running down....

[killersheep]

Agreed...I am just not sold on him as elite yet...I think he is a world class fighter who has the ability to upset anyone near his division but I won't say he is P4P or is he the best fighter even at 154

Who do you have ahead of him at 154? Light middle is really weak right now, there's some upcoming young guns, but the old guard has been really inactive.

Cotto I put ahead of him....I mentioned somewhere on the forum that IMO Cotto has the perfect style to KO Martinez...Sergio moves a lot and depends on it to keep his opp off....Cotto knows how to cut the ring off...He has big body shots.....He will slow Martinez down....Martinez not a guy who can fight off ropes or is he comfortable in close.....Cotto once slowing him down would either force him to stand and fight or shell up on the ropes....Similar to the Malignaggi bout where he chases and beats him up but I don't think Martinez is a durable as Paulie was back then..

We already spoke of Foreman who IMO beats him just as fast and younger...Martinez I noticed in the Pavlik fight can not keep the gas on all 12 rds....He also does not have a really high output in punches..

Depending on what Version of Spinks shows up is another close one....He has a rematch with Williams due...Though they might just do that at MW.....If Williams rematch W Quintana showed us anything that is Williams comes more prepared for rematches....

Those are 4 good fights for him...I favor him only over Spinks but still good fight......People rather see him fight Cotto, Foreman, Williams as far as earning potential then just abt any MW..

Plus a few WW guys will be coming up in the next year....

Like I stated he is 35 and time for paychecks are running down....

Fair enough, I think this kind of gets to heart of how we look at him.
I think Cotto is not what he used to be and whether or not his power carries up to 154 is completely unproven, not to mention his reach deficit increases considerably. Spinks is an old man himself, I don't think he really can get a crowd behind him even in his last fight against Latimore his home crowd was decidedly behind Latimore. The two fights at 154 that interest me the most are a Williams rematch and Foreman.

[J_Undisputed]

I think Martinez has had an impressive run. Theres a few question marks surround this fight. The fact That Martinez is should be at 154. Didnt he come in closer to his natural weight against Williams.? He seemed more sure of himself and also seemed more willing to engage Williams in the trenches. Can't say I blame him for staying out of range against a Pavlik who, rehydrated past the light heavyweight limit.
I find myself wanting to take points off for the showboating, but considering its half his game in creating his opportunities to use his speed. Its really hard to dislike this guy, except for the girly pouty face he was making in the post fight interview when he saw the mouse under his eye on camera. WTF was that about? lol