This is the only place I've seen where rightist americans (I know of no american leftist by international standard)debate with European lefties and they end up never understanding each other. The american lefts are not the same as the left, lefties, or leftists of Europe or elsewhere. The leftie fellows outside america are by the american standard, the reds or the commies. I hope I made it a little clearer and you folks here now understand where they are coming from... But I hate these politics, they muddle issues rather than clarify them. I'd rather be guided by the principle or right and wrong, and the truth...