What will Clinch-ko's legacy be?

[erics44]

again that is a very weak argument

and that very much isn't the reality of the situation

did the ref notice Wlads holding against Provetkin? seems he didn't because he didn't call it, or maybe it didn't happen, I dunno, you tell me?

It's not a weak argument it's reality.

...actually it's the epitome of the reality of the situation.


Again, it doesn't matter whether he noticed or whether he just didn't call it because at the end of the day the ref DID NOT CALL IT A FOUL....ergo it's fair play and if you are upset about that then perhaps you can write a strongly worded letter to any number of boxing officials.

Do you not think holding is a foul?




p.s. I'm not angry, we are just having a debate, we are on a forum where people have debates about boxing

[vidgil]

A real HW champ shouldn't have us questioning his tactics at all!

If Wlad was a powder-puff puncher like Chicken Floyd and couldn't bust a grape with a punch, then I'd be more inclined to forgive him for his excessive hugging.

But he's a big strapping 6'6", 250lb guy with arms like telephone poles. His jab is like most fighter's right cross, and his right cross and left hook are seriously devastating weapons.

So with those kinds of attributes, I think it's even more shameful that he has to hold on and fight scared. He should be knocking most guys out in the early to mid rounds.

[vidgil]

I don't know who I can't stand more, Chicken Floyd or Wladimir Clinchko.

At least Clinch-ko never ducked anyone. It's a toss up! I think I'll make a new poll about it.

[El Kabong]

Do you not think holding is a foul?




p.s. I'm not angry, we are just having a debate, we are on a forum where people have debates about boxing

In all honesty it depends on the situation. There are times when clinches can be used and should be used....there are times when there is too much clinching, and yes Wlad has had fights where that has been the case though never really in fights he was in any danger of losing and yes that pissed me off because without the holding he's a damned good boxer, sure he doesn't have the sturdiest of chins, but he's very effective when he's letting his hands go more often and as a fan I'd like to see that as well.


Ref's need to set a tone for a fight, they need to be consistent, and they need to follow through after warnings. For clinching, if it's too much or at the wrong times you break the fighters, you warn the person doing the holding and tell them "Next time I will take a point" if it continues you break the fighters and you take a point....problem solved. If the fighter continues to hold you give maybe 1 or 2 more point deductions (depending on the time lapsed between the fouls) and then you call the fight. Easy as that. And another thing, refs MUST ABSOLUTELY be 100% crystal fucking clear in explaining the rules before the fight and they must stick to them.


I understand that a lot of people get frustrated with Wlad when he does that....but where are those folks when BHop has done it for forever? Where are they when other fighters foul and never get called for it? That is more of what I take issue with than anything else.

[vidgil]

but where are those folks when BHop has done it for forever?

Oh god, please don't get me started on Hopkins...

[erics44]

do you think its at all suspicious that in Wlads fights he holds and leans a lot, more than he punches and he is rarely warned about it?

yet in the vast majority of other fights, when fighters are holding to that kind of level, the referees don't allow it?

[El Kabong]

do you think its at all suspicious that in Wlads fights he holds and leans a lot, more than he punches and he is rarely warned about it?

yet in the vast majority of other fights, when fighters are holding to that kind of level, the referees don't allow it?

I think it's a ref's prerogative to be honest and fighters take their lead from how the ref calls a match.

I know a lot of opponents got frustrated with Wlad because once they got on the inside they couldn't do anything....part of that isn't the ref's failing so much as the other fighter not keeping their hands free and working themselves out of a clinch. If you clinch someone and their hands are free, they're going to hit you.


There are good refs, there are bad refs, I don't think all of the refs in all of Wlad's fights have been bad. IN FACT Joe Cortez reffed Hatton-Mayweather and Wlad-Thompson I....people who were very upset with Joe in the Mayweather bout were really excited he would bring order to the Thompson bout....if MONEY causes refs to call fights a certain way then in that case Mayweather got the best of it because Cortez intervened on his behalf more, Cortez didn't say peep in the Wlad-Thompson fight.

[erics44]

do you think its at all suspicious that in Wlads fights he holds and leans a lot, more than he punches and he is rarely warned about it?

yet in the vast majority of other fights, when fighters are holding to that kind of level, the referees don't allow it?

I think it's a ref's prerogative to be honest and fighters take their lead from how the ref calls a match.

I know a lot of opponents got frustrated with Wlad because once they got on the inside they couldn't do anything....part of that isn't the ref's failing so much as the other fighter not keeping their hands free and working themselves out of a clinch. If you clinch someone and their hands are free, they're going to hit you.


There are good refs, there are bad refs, I don't think all of the refs in all of Wlad's fights have been bad. IN FACT Joe Cortez reffed Hatton-Mayweather and Wlad-Thompson I....people who were very upset with Joe in the Mayweather bout were really excited he would bring order to the Thompson bout....if MONEY causes refs to call fights a certain way then in that case Mayweather got the best of it because Cortez intervened on his behalf more, Cortez didn't say peep in the Wlad-Thompson fight.

Honest mate, I think you are either completely blind to it or choose to ignore it

the wlad provetkin fight was a disgrace, wlad v Peter 2 was almost as bad and there have been several other occasions where wlad should have been dq'd early

If the rules stated that you could hold if it's honest then there would be no argument. But they don't

And I do think mayweather got the benefit from refs, particularly towards the end of his career, but that was a little more discrete , I felt wlads fights were blatant cheating too extreme amounts in too many of his fights

[Master]

Wlad v Povetkin was bad for the holding but Wlad was destructive against Pulev.

[El Kabong]

Honest mate, I think you are either completely blind to it or choose to ignore it

the wlad provetkin fight was a disgrace, wlad v Peter 2 was almost as bad and there have been several other occasions where wlad should have been dq'd early

If the rules stated that you could hold if it's honest then there would be no argument. But they don't

And I do think mayweather got the benefit from refs, particularly towards the end of his career, but that was a little more discrete , I felt wlads fights were blatant cheating too extreme amounts in too many of his fights

No, I see it, but again the refs don't call it and when refs don't call it either the fighters have to complain or refuse to fight unless the calls will be made or they just have to deal with it.

Floyd Mayweather Jr. never had to fight someone 6 inches shorter than himself. Also Floyd would fight in a bit of a crouch at times so even then he's not going to have the same height disparity that Wlad has in a bout vs the likes of Povetkin.


Was the holding too much? I think it was excessive and I think had Wlad let his hands go more he would have stopped Povetkin, but again it's up to the referee to call the fouls and money shouldn't matter they get paid whether they call a DQ or take points or what have you...Laurence Cole still gets work and he's a shitty ref.


Fouls in boxing are like fouls in football, sometimes opponents dive, sometimes a meal is made out of an accident, sometimes the ref just doesn't see it....Think Ken Buchanan felt hard done by vs Duran? Think Dimitrenko felt hard done by vs Parker? Think RJJ felt hard done by Griffin the first go round? Think Hasim Rahman felt hard done by Holyfield?


Wlad taking advantage of the refs not calling clinching when John Ruiz fought 55 times during this era and was DQ'd a grand total of 0 times it's fair enough. If Wlad holds and the refs don't call it then what should his opponent do? Clinch before he initiates one and maybe try punching on the break....again technically "illegal" but hey if a ref ain't calling something odds are he won't call that either. Or drop a low blow in there and complain it's because you're being held down....there are ways around it other than just complaining. 1 time, 2 times, 3 times, but Wlad has fought in 68 fights....fighters should know what is coming, I mean REALLY, are they that dumb? That naive?


Fouls are like balls and strikes, every ref is going to be a little different on what they call....but the opponents SHOULD by now expect what is going to be across the ring from them, but I guess that's just asking too much from them

[El Kabong]

Wlad v Povetkin was bad for the holding but Wlad was destructive against Pulev.

Don't bring that up....doesn't fit the narrative.

[Batman]

I keep meaning to type a big long argument as to why Klit is in the top 10 but I really can't be arsed.

Yes he holds to much
yes he gets a lot of support from the refs
no you can't argue with his record

Bottom end of the top 10 for me.

[erics44]

Wlad v Povetkin was bad for the holding but Wlad was destructive against Pulev.

Don't bring that up....doesn't fit the narrative.

Pulev was wlads single best performance

[erics44]

Honest mate, I think you are either completely blind to it or choose to ignore it

the wlad provetkin fight was a disgrace, wlad v Peter 2 was almost as bad and there have been several other occasions where wlad should have been dq'd early

If the rules stated that you could hold if it's honest then there would be no argument. But they don't

And I do think mayweather got the benefit from refs, particularly towards the end of his career, but that was a little more discrete , I felt wlads fights were blatant cheating too extreme amounts in too many of his fights

No, I see it, but again the refs don't call it and when refs don't call it either the fighters have to complain or refuse to fight unless the calls will be made or they just have to deal with it.

Floyd Mayweather Jr. never had to fight someone 6 inches shorter than himself. Also Floyd would fight in a bit of a crouch at times so even then he's not going to have the same height disparity that Wlad has in a bout vs the likes of Povetkin.


Was the holding too much? I think it was excessive and I think had Wlad let his hands go more he would have stopped Povetkin, but again it's up to the referee to call the fouls and money shouldn't matter they get paid whether they call a DQ or take points or what have you...Laurence Cole still gets work and he's a shitty ref.


Fouls in boxing are like fouls in football, sometimes opponents dive, sometimes a meal is made out of an accident, sometimes the ref just doesn't see it....Think Ken Buchanan felt hard done by vs Duran? Think Dimitrenko felt hard done by vs Parker? Think RJJ felt hard done by Griffin the first go round? Think Hasim Rahman felt hard done by Holyfield?


Wlad taking advantage of the refs not calling clinching when John Ruiz fought 55 times during this era and was DQ'd a grand total of 0 times it's fair enough. If Wlad holds and the refs don't call it then what should his opponent do? Clinch before he initiates one and maybe try punching on the break....again technically "illegal" but hey if a ref ain't calling something odds are he won't call that either. Or drop a low blow in there and complain it's because you're being held down....there are ways around it other than just complaining. 1 time, 2 times, 3 times, but Wlad has fought in 68 fights....fighters should know what is coming, I mean REALLY, are they that dumb? That naive?


Fouls are like balls and strikes, every ref is going to be a little different on what they call....but the opponents SHOULD by now expect what is going to be across the ring from them, but I guess that's just asking too much from them

why do you think that in the huge majority of other fights that the ref calls fouls for holding? yet when wlad fights he is allowed to hold to an extreme level?

do you think any other fighter would have been allowed to continue in the Provetkin or Sam Peter 2 fight?

[El Kabong]

why do you think that in the huge majority of other fights that the ref calls fouls for holding? yet when wlad fights he is allowed to hold to an extreme level?

do you think any other fighter would have been allowed to continue in the Provetkin or Sam Peter 2 fight?

Do they? I'd love to see a statistical breakdown of that.


Yes plenty of other fighters would have been allowed to continue. And it's the ref's fault for allowing those fights to happen that way, call the fouls, deduct the points, don't do it and well the fighters will take advantage.....at least the smart/cagey ones will.