Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1

[Gandalf]

So you give calzaghe a pass for a broken hand against Reid? What about when ward still dominated froch with a broken hand?

Calzaghe wouldn't be throwing 100 punches a round against ward. Ward slows people down. It's like what mayweather does. He lowers his opponents output by a lot. And the difference is that calzaghe isn't a come forward brawler who just walks through punches. He doesn't just walk through punches. He has gotten hurt multiple times throughout his career.

I don't mind you thinking that calzaghe is great, but he best win by far was hopkins which was close. Other than that, he didn't beat anybody that good. I was never that impressed with him.

And once again, ward is an elite fighter in any era. He is potentially the best p4p fighter in the world right now. If he beats kovalev convincingly this time around, he should be undisputed #1. Nobody ever even considered calzaghe near that good when he was fighting other than a few fans from Wales.

I don't give him a pass as I think he won a close fight. I also think Calzaghe would have shut out Froch 12 to nothing and do it much more impressively than Andre Ward did. Calzaghe wouldn't be throwing a 100 punches a round, no. It would be because Ward would be clinching as he always does. However, Calzaghe is just as quick as Ward and can maintain what he does better. Every round would see Ward outlanded, increasingly bloodied and frustrated. Ward doesn't have the power to put Calzaghe down so the notion of him being hurt is a silly one. Calzaghe got put down early, shook it off, and came back like a demon everytime. Ward doesn't have a punch. Ward and Kovalev have shallow records and both have been fighting non elite fighters lately, so the notion that these two 30-40 punch a round guys are the cream of the cream is a funny one to me. Lomachenko is much, much better.

[Gandalf]

Ward has beaten more names, but a few are Calzaghe leftovers and others like Abraham and Froch have all easily been outboxed by others. It's not spectacular. His best win was Kessler, but he did it by headbutt in a display that should have seen him disqualified.

[powerpuncher]

It's not even a debate. Ward has a better resume than calzaghe. Don't act like froch was nothing. He was known as a really good fighter. He had success before and after ward. In fact, froch has a better resume than calzaghe. It has always been known that calzaghe didn't fight anybody great. That's why it wasn't until he beat Hopkins that he become legit because he beat a good fighter. Kessler was his other good win. He really didn't have any other good wins other than that. A few decent ones but that's it.

[Gandalf]

Froch was never a truly elite fighter. For years people have bemoaned his amateurish mistakes, how he left his chin open, his lack of output, how opponents would outbox him. Taylor did it, Kessler did it, Ward did it, Groves did it. Quite the list. You never saw Calzaghe being outboxed for large chunks of a fight. He beat Kessler far more cleanly and sublimely than either Froch or Ward could manage. Only in YOUR eyes did Calzaghe become legit after Hopkins because you obviously weren't paying attention.

Ward has a resume that is basically Calzaghe victims in Kessler and Bika. Then there is Froch and Abraham who had serious limitations at the top. Oh, and Chad Dawson who gets KO'ed in every fight now. Says something when even Andre Ward manages to get a stoppage.

Then since then who has he fought? Then he gets a gift after throwing 25 punches a round against Kovalev. The idea that he would be a problem for Calzaghe makes me laugh. No power, no output, just a head and some quick hands and the Americans think he is the best thing since sliced bread. Bwahaha! Plus Ward has never been in an entertaining fight. At least Hopkins only resorted to these tactics as a very old man. What's Wards excuse?

[Gandalf]

The good thing about Froch though was that he did fight everyone he could despite those limitations. Sometimes he won, sometimes he lost. The difference in skill level between Froch and Calzaghe was tremendous though. Calzaghe was sublime with handspeed, output, good footwork, southpaw stance and underrated defence. His offense was his defence and he had a chin with it. Froch was good but again very limited with his output and combinations. Calzaghe was a different level to any of that. Ward still laboured towards the end against someone with no technique. Jones Jr and Hopkins were far superior to Ward in their prime.

[Master]

Disagree that Hopkins and Jones were better than Ward at the stage when Joe fought them. I feel Andre would have beaten them too.

Joe was better than Froch, even if he did not fight as many good opponents as Carl did. Joe beating Kessler whilst he was unbeaten, younger and hungrier illustrates that point.

[Alpha]

Disagree that Hopkins and Jones were better than Ward at the stage when Joe fought them. I feel Adre would have beaten them too.

Joe was better than Froch, even if he did not fight as many good opponents as Carl did. Joe beating Kessler whilst he was unbeaten, younger and hungrier illustrates that point.

I also feel Ward is better than Jones Jr & Hopkins at the time they fought Calzaghe. Jones at 168 wins that fight in my opinion. A younger Hopkins also pushes Calzaghe and is a fight that could go either way. Ward and Kovalev would be very difficult fights for Joe and each would present many difficulties for him to overcome. We only saw Joe at 175 twice; against to aged legends who had both come from lower weights. Joe was also nearing the end of his career. I think both Ward and Kov would do very well against Calzaghe.

[Gandalf]

Disagree that Hopkins and Jones were better than Ward at the stage when Joe fought them. I feel Andre would have beaten them too.

Joe was better than Froch, even if he did not fight as many good opponents as Carl did. Joe beating Kessler whilst he was unbeaten, younger and hungrier illustrates that point.

No, Ward would have beaten Jones quite easily, but Hopkins I am not so sure about. I meant that Hopkins and Jones in their prime were a league above anything Ward will amount to.