Juan Diaz P4P huh?Dear me....

[ICB]

" Juan Diaz.... Wins over Freitas and Julio Diaz don't make you P4P. Cotto had to beat Judah,Mosley,and 3 unbeaten future world champs(Torres,Paulie and QUintana) to get into P4P lists. Diaz is nowhere near that."

Posted this yesterday in the P4P thread. Some of us were rather premature in making Diaz a P4P. Listen to El Gamo next time. I asked why and no-one gave a response. I feel fully indicated now.

I had Juan Diaz in my P4P list and i don't see there was anything wrong with it, Acelino Freitas, Julio Diaz, were very good wins and IMO Diaz rightfully deserved to be in the top 10 P4P. Obviously he is out of my P4P list now but im not writing him off i think he will beat Campbell in a rematch and get back to dominating Lightweight division, not to make excuses but i think the head butt early on that caused the cut was a big disadvantage for Diaz, he had never dealt with anything like that before but he passed with flying colors and was able to last the distance. I think it was a good learning experience for Diaz and he will comeback stronger than ever from this loss you mark my words.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Ice, it wasn't a headbutt that caused the cut, it was a punch

[Macho]

Juan Diaz i want to say that he is a real good boxer but need more to be in that clasification.........

[Wayne]

Ice, it wasn't a headbutt that caused the cut, it was a punch

Actually, it was a headbutt. It was opened up even further by a punch. Watch the 2nd round again and you'll see Campbell's head come rocketing into Diaz's.

And I might still put Diaz in my p4p list. I'm not so quick to write him off on the basis of one fight. I think if he has a rematch clause he should exercise it and he'll take his belt back.

Did you throw Shane Mosley off you p4p list after he lost to Forrest? How about when RJJ got DQ'd against Montell Griffin?

Shame on anyone who was so quick to throw him over. Diaz had 1 of 2 things going wrong for him Saturday night. His buzzsaw style was effectively blunted against a slick fighter who can take a punch and he wasn't Nate Campbell. Let's face it, Campbell is pretty much a back-to-the-wall kind of fighter. At 36 he's pretty much at the ass end of his career considering the division he's in, he's been to the top and failed twice before and he couldn't get any farther away from home than Diaz's mother country. Did you hear the ring music Campbell in with? Damn right he knew he had to seize the moment or it was OVER. Campbell trained like his life depended on it and poured everything he had in him on the canvas. Diaz is more than a decade younger than Campbell, had already been a champ for a while and, his own fault, has other things to fall back on. Campbell was pretty much in fight-or-die mode and Diaz had no reason to think that way.

And the cut he gave Diaz didn't hurt, either.

Notice how different the tone of the fight was after that. Diaz has never fought that tired-looking before. And before anyone begins to question his heart remember how Shane Mosley pretty much broke down after he got cut from a head butt in the Forrest fight? He'd never been cut like that before and I'd bet if it happened in another fight he'd be better prepared to deal with it. And his corner would come with actual coagulant instead of that Visine crap.

I say Diaz exercises a rematch clause immediately and you will see a totally different fight. Campbell has made it to the mountaintop and that razor's edge in him is dulled somewhat. Diaz will have to commit to boxing in a way he hadn't for Saturday night and will be truer to form. For a while he was showing progressive improvement in his defense and he showed none of that against Campbell, Diaz (largely because his offense was his defense) & Freitas.

I knew this kid was something special when I saw what he did against Cotto.

He needs to sit mother, father & trainer down and explain to them that law school doesn't pay the bills, but boxing makes ends meet several times over. He needs--and this is the scary part because the structure may be part of his success--to move out on his own. Law school isn't going away and he can quit boxing anytime. But trying to do both may be too much weight for him to carry.

[El Gamo]

You have got to be kidding.....
Diaz P4P better then Mijares and Marquez.
I can see him above Kess, Hatton.
I even have a tough time typing that he's P4P better then Pavlik.

Exactly. I can't believe these bandwagon jumpers. A guy has an 0,a few titles and all of a sudden,he's P4P.It's rather embaressing.


Majesty wrote:Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all."

To be honest,I stopped reading after that. I've seen MANY knowledgeable boxing writers and members here at Saddo's and other forums say Cotto would lose to Paulie,Quintana,Mosley etc. So your statement goes out of the window.

Bilbo wrote: So my question to Gamo is apart from your superb intuition what led you to deduce he didn't deserve p4p status?

9 straight title defenses, holding three of the 4 title belts and still only 24 IS p4p status.

What makes ma laugh though as if that you will place unproven stars like Christian Mijares who has one single win over a name opponent above him and yet be convinced you were right in your assessment."


Riiiiiiight.....so...show me 1,ONE,list where I have written Mijares ABOVE Diaz in the top 10. go ahead. You won't find one,you know why? Because I HAVENT. What makes your assessment even more embaressing is Mijares has as many or almost as many good wins as Diaz:

Jose Navarro
Arce
Kawashima in his backyard TWICE.
Munoz next in a unification.

So stop downplaying Mijares when you have not obviously not seen/dont
know about him.


Oh and Calderon had something like 12 title defences and didn't lose,moved and beat the NUMBER1 guy in that division. Seriously folks,keep it real. Stop making yourselves look foolish. You jumped on the bandwagon,the bandwagon was derailed,stop clutching at straws writing essays to make yourself feel better. Diaz was a very good fighter,who was absolutely not top10 P4P and the Camblee fight proved it. A fight he should have won and he lost.On the other hand,you have guys like Calderon who get shafted because fans dont' know anything about them.Next time,try some research.

[Julius Rain]

im with gamo.

diaz like you guys said is still young only 24, he has time to really improve but i never counted him as top ten p4p. the belt doesn't mean much, he never really dominated the whole fight he just out lasted guys. maybe cause of his age being the younger fighter. Now that campbell has expose his one demensional way, look at how not p4p he really is.

To me it doesn't even matter how many titles or how many good wins you have. As long as you show how good you are. Now look at ivan and mijares, they don't have as much hype but if we were to put ivan or mijares against juan if they were the say weight. I'd go for both ivan and mijares to take juan to school and get beaten far worst then how campbell beat juan.

From now on though, IMO juan will just be like rocky juarez, he won't be gun shy but won't really be elite due to lack of game plan b or c.

[CutMeMick]

Not now Mick I mean before the Campbell fight.
24 years old, 9 straight defenses. IBF, WBA and WBO lightweight champion, closest to a unified champ in the whole of boxing at that time.

Last I checked age had nothing to do with P4P status....
The fact that Acelinos the biggest name on his resume speaks for itself.

How the fuck had Mijares done more, beat an overhyped Jorge Arce?

Not sure if you realize this mate but Arces a future Hall of Famer.
Wether YOU agree with it or not is another story but fact is hes going to Canastota. You call Arce over hyped that is absurd as he showed fight in and fight out that he stepped in the ring to fight and try to win.
If I remember correctly in another thread you made a comment about Mijares fighting to a draw with Maldonado whom I'm pretty sure you said wait that names sounds familiar and you went searching and clicking on names on BoxRec and you found out he has since then lost to Vic and to Nonito not having seen the fight you thought it'd be smart of you to mention that Mijares fought to a draw agains that same guy...
Look for the fight and watch it tell me if you think Maldonado fought the same. Truth is Maldonado was on one that night and IMO fought his ass off. Mijares himself didn't fight his fight and let off. No excuses hes bounced back and has beaten 2 World Class guys in Arce and Kawashima.

What makes me laugh is that you yourself have said plenty times that you don't rate the small guys and that you could beat them and punch them into the next world Buuuuut you sure as hell like to comment on them and make comments on how much they suck and don't deserve things. For someone whos not interested in the smaller guys you sure type like if you follow them closely....

With Hatton and Marquez both losing their last fights, a case could have been made for an unbeaten Diaz to nip above them in the rankings.

Because you loose a fight DOES NOT necessairly mean your off the P4P list. (This can depend on several things the way the fight went, who you lost to etc. etc.)

To say he wasnt close to p4p based on merit is just hating imo

Well Bilbs I never one said he wasn't close to P4P.
I've never rated him but if I had to rate him pre-Nate fight I would guess somewhere around 11-16.

[Kev]

Last I checked age had nothing to do with P4P status....
The fact that Acelinos the biggest name on his resume speaks for itself.


Not sure if you realize this mate but Arces a future Hall of Famer.
Wether YOU agree with it or not is another story but fact is hes going to Canastota. You call Arce over hyped that is absurd as he showed fight in and fight out that he stepped in the ring to fight and try to win.
If I remember correctly in another thread you made a comment about Mijares fighting to a draw with Maldonado whom I'm pretty sure you said wait that names sounds familiar and you went searching and clicking on names on BoxRec and you found out he has since then lost to Vic and to Nonito not having seen the fight you thought it'd be smart of you to mention that Mijares fought to a draw agains that same guy...
Look for the fight and watch it tell me if you think Maldonado fought the same. Truth is Maldonado was on one that night and IMO fought his ass off. Mijares himself didn't fight his fight and let off. No excuses hes bounced back and has beaten 2 World Class guys in Arce and Kawashima.

What makes me laugh is that you yourself have said plenty times that you don't rate the small guys and that you could beat them and punch them into the next world Buuuuut you sure as hell like to comment on them and make comments on how much they suck and don't deserve things. For someone whos not interested in the smaller guys you sure type like if you follow them closely....



Because you loose a fight DOES NOT necessairly mean your off the P4P list. (This can depend on several things the way the fight went, who you lost to etc. etc.)


Well Bilbs I never one said he wasn't close to P4P.
I've never rated him but if I had to rate him pre-Nate fight I would guess somewhere around 11-16.

Hey Mick you've obviously not read my own posts correctly. If you look back you'll see I never said Diaz was number 10 p4p I said he belongs in the group vying for consideration for that 10th spot, at the time that would have been guys like Calderon, Hatton, Mijares, Kessler etc.

If someone had Calderon above him in the 10th spot I would have had no problem and said so.

Gamo came on here and starting shouting that Diaz was exposed and that anyone who believed in him beforehand was a fool!

I merely defended him and his position as being 'close' to p4p status. Certainly I would not have any complaints prior to the Campbell fight with him being labelled anywhere from 10 to say 13, certainly he wasn't lower in my eyes.

I was not bashing Mijares I was merely saying that he is an example of a fighter that other posters, Gamo included love with a passion. Nothing at all wrong with that but it's woefully inconsistent to laugh at people who believed in Juan Diaz's talents and delight in his exposure, but then to take the moral highground and insist nobody says anything bad about their own favourite fighter.

As for Arce being a future Hall of Famer, you very well may be rifght. But guess what Acelino Freitas might just sneak in alongside him, don't you think?

You say Maldonado was 'on' when he fought Mijares, I have no problem with that, but wouldn't you also say that Nate Campbell was 'on' when he fought the fight of his life against Juan Diaz?

Diaz is only 24, is still one of the most exciting fighters in boxing, and at such a young age held the most belts 3 legit titles of anybody currently in boxing.

He was making his 10th defense of his title and was unbeaten.

That IS borderline p4p status. Maybe you had him 12th or 13th rather than 10th but we are splitting hairs here.

To create a post and say people were fools for placing him at 10 in the p4p rankings rather 11th or 12th is just lame in my opinion.

And besides there are many fighters who but for a slight twist of fate wouldn't be in the rankings. Pavlik with a different referee may have lost the first Taylor fight in the 2nd round. Calderon with different judges may have not got the decision over Hugo Cazares.

And there's nothing to say they won't lose in their next fights either.

If Mijares loses to Munoz in his next fight should I make a post laughing at those who thought he was the shit?

Boxing is a tough sport and any fighter can lose on a given night. Diaz is still an exceptional talent and great for the sport of boxing.

He was up against a wiley veteran who was on fire that night and would have given any lightweight in the world problems.

He'll bounce back.

[Majesty]

Majesty wrote:Cotto got on the p4p off of Shane Mosley's "name" but the names you mentioned when Cotto fought them weren't considered to be a big threat at all."

To be honest,I stopped reading after that. I've seen MANY knowledgeable boxing writers and members here at Saddo's and other forums say Cotto would lose to Paulie,Quintana,Mosley etc. So your statement goes out of the window.

Those posters weren't me. So you can't throw my statement out the window.

I can't speak for the other forum members only myself, so using someone else's opinion to throw mine out the window is a bit childish.

I didnt pick Paulie to beat Cotto. I said Cotto would kill Quintana as soon as he turned his side to him(which is exactly how the process started) And I didnt pick Mosley to beat Cotto.

So you can't throw my opinion out the window because I picked consistantly with what I was saying, I didn't change it to make a point.

[El Gamo]

I had Juan Diaz in my P4P list and i don't see there was anything wrong with it, Acelino Freitas, Julio Diaz, were very good wins and IMO Diaz rightfully deserved to be in the top 10 P4P. Obviously he is out of my P4P list now but im not writing him off i think he will beat Campbell in a rematch and get back to dominating Lightweight division, not to make excuses but i think the head butt early on that caused the cut was a big disadvantage for Diaz, he had never dealt with anything like that before but he passed with flying colors and was able to last the distance. I think it was a good learning experience for Diaz and he will comeback stronger than ever from this loss you mark my words.

Cristian Mijares has some good wins.Carlos Quintana has some good wins.They aren't P4P.Like I said before,no-one really put forward a solid case for Juan Diaz to be P4P,it was simply a case of,he's unbeaten,has 2-3 decent wins,why not put him in there.

And I agree,I think he'll come back but it goes to show putting him in the P4P lists was rather premature. Nate would have beaten him,cut or no cut.Julio couldnt out will and break down Campbell, and that's a HUGE part of his game.And I really don't understand the "he passed with flying colours " part:he lost.He did well to survive.

[ICB]

Cristian Mijares has some good wins.Carlos Quintana has some good wins.They aren't P4P.Like I said before,no-one really put forward a solid case for Juan Diaz to be P4P,it was simply a case of,he's unbeaten,has 2-3 decent wins,why not put him in there.

And I agree,I think he'll come back but it goes to show putting him in the P4P lists was rather premature. Nate would have beaten him,cut or no cut.Julio couldnt out will and break down Campbell, and that's a HUGE part of his game.And I really don't understand the "he passed with flying colours " part:he lost.He did well to survive.

I'll admit i went on Juan Diaz bandwagon i was very impressed with his two wins over Freitas, Julio Diaz. Maybe i did put him up there a bit premature but im not going to lie and say i didn't think he deserved to be there just because he lost. And my opinion of him hasn't changed at all, and what i meant by passed with flying colors, is that Diaz dealt with that adversity of being badly cut and his eye being virtually closed. But yet he kept coming forward and never gave up, Campbell was just superb rolling with Diaz's punches and throwing almost 1200 + punches. I think it was more to do with how great Campbell fought rather than Diaz *being exposed*. I think Diaz's biggest weakness is that he has no power and that cost him tonight. But like i said he will be back stronger than ever and IMO he will beat Campbell in a rematch.

[Mikkel_K]

Like I said before,no-one really put forward a solid case for Juan Diaz to be P4P,it was simply a case of,he's unbeaten,has 2-3 decent wins,why not put him in there.

And I agree,I think he'll come back but it goes to show putting him in the P4P lists was rather premature.

I think it was also due to the fact that Juan Diaz held 3 alphabet belts (and - Ring belt or not - was generally considered the MAN) in one of the most prestigious divisions in boxing. That on paper should be enough to qualify you for p4p consideration, especially given he was undefeated to boot.

Personally I never had him in the top 10 (probably top 20 though), and I agree today's hindsight proves he never belonged there, but to laugh at the very notion of him being p4p seems a bit over the top.

[El Gamo]

I think it was also due to the fact that Juan Diaz held 3 alphabet belts (and - Ring belt or not - was generally considered the MAN) in one of the most prestigious divisions in boxing. That on paper should be enough to qualify you for p4p consideration, especially given he was undefeated to boot.

Personally I never had him in the top 10 (probably top 20 though), and I agree today's hindsight proves he never belonged there, but to laugh at the very notion of him being p4p seems a bit over the top.

Certainly,he was a top 20 contender,but in the top 10 fighters in the world,based on his record(which is good but not P4P just yet),absolutely not imo and I feel fully vindicated now. I certainly wasn't laughing at the notion but I thought people were getting carried away by the hype,that's all.

[:::PSL:::]

I think it was also due to the fact that Juan Diaz held 3 alphabet belts (and - Ring belt or not - was generally considered the MAN) in one of the most prestigious divisions in boxing. That on paper should be enough to qualify you for p4p consideration, especially given he was undefeated to boot.

Personally I never had him in the top 10 (probably top 20 though), and I agree today's hindsight proves he never belonged there, but to laugh at the very notion of him being p4p seems a bit over the top.

Yea. This just proves that belts doesn't mean sh1t that much these days.

[Pavlik]

If Baby Bull had a lil more Pop in his punches he will be almost unstoppable because as of now if you can WITHSTAND his barrage and have POWER looks like the kid doesnt have a plan B I can just imagine if he is up against a fighter who can stick and move with the same handpseed and stamina as him but with more POWER how can he cope?