Haye 16st 9lbs

[rjj tszyu]

Well said...People tend to forget that a punch from a bonafied HW fighter (225-240lbs)...That can crack just a bit is one hell of a thing to absorb.....The whole with speed comes power theory has its limits.....

It is not that speed makes you hit harder it is the fact that you can not prepare for what you can not see coming.....Making the punch that you don't see having a higher effect...With that being said....

At HW you need to have HW power to keep that theory intact....

A shot from a guy who weighs 240lbs at full force will rock you a hell of a lot harder then a guy who is 195-200lbs normally....

Also Haye (And his followers) need to remember that Haye has never felt REAL: HW power and Wlad certainly has REAL HW power.....

Manny will make a game plan suited for Haye if it ever happens...All Wlad has to do is follow it....Wlad is his own worst enemy at times because he anticipates punches or gets punch shy a bit.....That is a no no....But if Wlad does not think he has anything to fear from Hayes shots then he will stand up and fight him...I don't care how much the "Hayemaker" is primed to land if he stands in front of Wlad for one exchange he will find out why he was the cruiserweight chamiopn and not the HW champ in the first place.....


After he wins the belt who does he have to face?.....Are we going to pretend he can stand up to the power of Peter, McCline, even the aging slow punching David Tua would spark him if he lands......

Haye is no Evander Holyfield....He is not the next great HW

Whether Haye is the next great heavyweight or not can only be told by time but your talking as though 240lbs is the weight that HWs hardest punchers weighed..... Your wrong.

Prime Tyson- 215lbs-220lbs
Prime Foreman- 218lbs-230lbs
Prime Shavers- 210lbs-215lbs
Prime Louis- 198lbs-210lbs

Thats just a few but these four could be argued as being the hardest punchers ever and they prove my point that you don't have to be 240lbs to be a great puncher. Punching has a technique to it and once you start getting too heavy you cannot put the same kind of snap into a punch to cause the kind of damage that the men i mentioned used to do.

You also have to take into account that the men they were facing were same weight maybe slightly under or over what they weighed.Today's heavyweight's are much bigger and guy's like Wlad have great boxing talent that really hasn't been seen in besides Lennox. Both of these men are huge they are not plotters but light on the toes,their not slow they are very quick indeed for big men.To see Shaver's or Joe Louis in their with Lennox or Wlad I think they would toy with them and then knock them out.

Are you joking? Maybe you could make a case for Lennox beating Louis but not Wlad. I have all the respect in the world for him but he is just not mentally tough enough for Louis and also Lewis was KO'd by McCall and Rahman which is no great achievement but he avenged so i'm not going too deep into that. But also you said that Louis wasn't beating men that are as big as todays heavys let me give you a few examples:

25-6-1935 Joe Louis (196lbs) TKOd Primo Carnera (260 1/2 lbs) round 6.
21-3-1941 Joe Louis (202lbs) TKOd Abe Simon (254 1/2 lbs) round 13.
23-5-1941 Joe Louis (202lbs) won by DQ after flooring Buddy Baer (237lbs) 3 times in round 6 after which Baers manager refused to leave the ring resulting in the DQ.
REMATCH 9-1-1942 Joe Louis (206lbs) KOd Buddy Baer (250lbs) round 1.
27-3-1942 Joe Louis (207lbs) TKO'd Abe Simon (255lbs) round 6.

Now I'd say that they are all big men like todays heavys but not one could stand upto Louis' punch power.

[leftylee]

If anyone has got a David Haye career set they wish to sell let me know

[The Fightfan]

Whether Haye is the next great heavyweight or not can only be told by time but your talking as though 240lbs is the weight that HWs hardest punchers weighed..... Your wrong.

Prime Tyson- 215lbs-220lbs
Prime Foreman- 218lbs-230lbs
Prime Shavers- 210lbs-215lbs
Prime Louis- 198lbs-210lbs

Thats just a few but these four could be argued as being the hardest punchers ever and they prove my point that you don't have to be 240lbs to be a great puncher. Punching has a technique to it and once you start getting too heavy you cannot put the same kind of snap into a punch to cause the kind of damage that the men i mentioned used to do.

You also have to take into account that the men they were facing were same weight maybe slightly under or over what they weighed.Today's heavyweight's are much bigger and guy's like Wlad have great boxing talent that really hasn't been seen in besides Lennox. Both of these men are huge they are not plotters but light on the toes,their not slow they are very quick indeed for big men.To see Shaver's or Joe Louis in their with Lennox or Wlad I think they would toy with them and then knock them out.

Are you joking? Maybe you could make a case for Lennox beating Louis but not Wlad. I have all the respect in the world for him but he is just not mentally tough enough for Louis and also Lewis was KO'd by McCall and Rahman which is no great achievement but he avenged so i'm not going too deep into that. But also you said that Louis wasn't beating men that are as big as todays heavys let me give you a few examples:

25-6-1935 Joe Louis (196lbs) TKOd Primo Carnera (260 1/2 lbs) round 6.
21-3-1941 Joe Louis (202lbs) TKOd Abe Simon (254 1/2 lbs) round 13.
23-5-1941 Joe Louis (202lbs) won by DQ after flooring Buddy Baer (237lbs) 3 times in round 6 after which Baers manager refused to leave the ring resulting in the DQ.
REMATCH 9-1-1942 Joe Louis (206lbs) KOd Buddy Baer (250lbs) round 1.
27-3-1942 Joe Louis (207lbs) TKO'd Abe Simon (255lbs) round 6.

Now I'd say that they are all big men like todays heavys but not one could stand upto Louis' punch power.

Ok granted but you named three fighter's what about Marciano smaller,Walcott smaller,Lee Savold smaller,Ezzard Charles smaller,Billy Conn smaller, etc. You have name probably the most uncoordinated heavyweight's of all time. Primo Carnera a joke, watch Requiem for a heavyweight. Next you would tell me that Joe Louis would knock both of these fighter's out. Meaning Wlad and Lennox. I would have to end this conversation.

[El Kabong]

rjjtszyu, as happy as you are that David Haye is actually going to fight a heavyweight soon (so I've heard) you really have to admit that Haye has a lot to prove at heavyweight.


When Holyfield moved up he had to RE-ANSWER all the questions about him, chin, heart, stamina, power, and overall effectiveness as a fighter vs the bigger more experienced heavyweights. If you're telling me Haye is so good that he doesn't need to go the path that Holyfield went then I'll be the first to laugh in your face.

There are AMPLE reasons why David Haye needs to re-answer the questions people have about fighters: Bert Cooper, Dwight Muhammed Qawi, Orlin Norris, Alfred Cole, Lee Roy Murphy, Vassily Jirov....all damn fine cruiseweights but were found lacking in the heavyweight division.

[rjj tszyu]

rjjtszyu, as happy as you are that David Haye is actually going to fight a heavyweight soon (so I've heard) you really have to admit that Haye has a lot to prove at heavyweight.


When Holyfield moved up he had to RE-ANSWER all the questions about him, chin, heart, stamina, power, and overall effectiveness as a fighter vs the bigger more experienced heavyweights. If you're telling me Haye is so good that he doesn't need to go the path that Holyfield went then I'll be the first to laugh in your face.

There are AMPLE reasons why David Haye needs to re-answer the questions people have about fighters: Bert Cooper, Dwight Muhammed Qawi, Orlin Norris, Alfred Cole, Lee Roy Murphy, Vassily Jirov....all damn fine cruiseweights but were found lacking in the heavyweight division.

Lyle I'm the first to admit that he has a lot to prove. He may well go out against a real (world class) HW and get blown out. But to me he has been a heavyweight that has been draining himself badly to make 200lbs for years now and will be far more suited to HW IMO. But the points I have been trying to make on here is you don't have to be 240lbs to hit like Wlad. In fact barring Foreman in the comeback years I think Wlad is the only 240lbs+ fighter who has really punched really well.

[DaxxKahn]

Whether Haye is the next great heavyweight or not can only be told by time but your talking as though 240lbs is the weight that HWs hardest punchers weighed..... Your wrong.

Prime Tyson- 215lbs-220lbs
Prime Foreman- 218lbs-230lbs
Prime Shavers- 210lbs-215lbs
Prime Louis- 198lbs-210lbs

Thats just a few but these four could be argued as being the hardest punchers ever and they prove my point that you don't have to be 240lbs to be a great puncher. Punching has a technique to it and once you start getting too heavy you cannot put the same kind of snap into a punch to cause the kind of damage that the men i mentioned used to do.

You also have to take into account that the men they were facing were same weight maybe slightly under or over what they weighed.Today's heavyweight's are much bigger and guy's like Wlad have great boxing talent that really hasn't been seen in besides Lennox. Both of these men are huge they are not plotters but light on the toes,their not slow they are very quick indeed for big men.To see Shaver's or Joe Louis in their with Lennox or Wlad I think they would toy with them and then knock them out.

Are you joking? Maybe you could make a case for Lennox beating Louis but not Wlad. I have all the respect in the world for him but he is just not mentally tough enough for Louis and also Lewis was KO'd by McCall and Rahman which is no great achievement but he avenged so i'm not going too deep into that. But also you said that Louis wasn't beating men that are as big as todays heavys let me give you a few examples:

25-6-1935 Joe Louis (196lbs) TKOd Primo Carnera (260 1/2 lbs) round 6.
21-3-1941 Joe Louis (202lbs) TKOd Abe Simon (254 1/2 lbs) round 13.
23-5-1941 Joe Louis (202lbs) won by DQ after flooring Buddy Baer (237lbs) 3 times in round 6 after which Baers manager refused to leave the ring resulting in the DQ.
REMATCH 9-1-1942 Joe Louis (206lbs) KOd Buddy Baer (250lbs) round 1.
27-3-1942 Joe Louis (207lbs) TKO'd Abe Simon (255lbs) round 6.

Now I'd say that they are all big men like todays heavys but not one could stand upto Louis' punch power.

I go by the average of todays fighters what fighters weighed or how tall they were 20, 30, 50yrs ago means nothing so you went to boxrec and looked up all your statistics for nothing......Buddy Baer and Abe Simon were not in Louis Class look at their resumes before starting to use examples.....Buddy was an opponent for many a HW to look good against and the last name Baer brought in names...

As for Lewis being KO'd by Rahman and McCall and you not getting into that....Those were Lewis own fault for not taking his opp seriously.....I think he showed in the rematches who the man was...Neither gave him even a close round in the rematches....

So no I am not talking as though that is the weight HWts hardest punchers weighed and when you make a counterpoint don't use the biggest hoaxes to ever step in the division to make it

[The Fightfan]

You also have to take into account that the men they were facing were same weight maybe slightly under or over what they weighed.Today's heavyweight's are much bigger and guy's like Wlad have great boxing talent that really hasn't been seen in besides Lennox. Both of these men are huge they are not plotters but light on the toes,their not slow they are very quick indeed for big men.To see Shaver's or Joe Louis in their with Lennox or Wlad I think they would toy with them and then knock them out.

Are you joking? Maybe you could make a case for Lennox beating Louis but not Wlad. I have all the respect in the world for him but he is just not mentally tough enough for Louis and also Lewis was KO'd by McCall and Rahman which is no great achievement but he avenged so i'm not going too deep into that. But also you said that Louis wasn't beating men that are as big as todays heavys let me give you a few examples:

25-6-1935 Joe Louis (196lbs) TKOd Primo Carnera (260 1/2 lbs) round 6.
21-3-1941 Joe Louis (202lbs) TKOd Abe Simon (254 1/2 lbs) round 13.
23-5-1941 Joe Louis (202lbs) won by DQ after flooring Buddy Baer (237lbs) 3 times in round 6 after which Baers manager refused to leave the ring resulting in the DQ.
REMATCH 9-1-1942 Joe Louis (206lbs) KOd Buddy Baer (250lbs) round 1.
27-3-1942 Joe Louis (207lbs) TKO'd Abe Simon (255lbs) round 6.

Now I'd say that they are all big men like todays heavys but not one could stand upto Louis' punch power.

I go by the average of todays fighters what fighters weighed or how tall they were 20, 30, 50yrs ago means nothing so you went to boxrec and looked up all your statistics for nothing......Buddy Baer and Abe Simon were not in Louis Class look at their resumes before starting to use examples.....Buddy was an opponent for many a HW to look good against and the last name Baer brought in names...

As for Lewis being KO'd by Rahman and McCall and you not getting into that....Those were Lewis own fault for not taking his opp seriously.....I think he showed in the rematches who the man was...Neither gave him even a close round in the rematches....

So no I am not talking as though that is the weight HWts hardest punchers weighed and when you make a counterpoint don't use the biggest hoaxes to ever step in the division to make it

I will disagree with one thing I don't use box rec I know my shit and have everyone of the fight's I mentioned. So please just don't think of me as an incompentent schmo who runs to box rec everytime someone has a beef.

[El Kabong]

Well #1 Joe Louis was a HELL of a boxer IMO the GREATEST OF ALL-TIME #2 It would be very difficult to throw fighters into a vaccume and decide the outcome of a fight considering neither Louis and Shavers or Lewis and Wlad fought opposition that equal each other.

Better nutrition, training, and healthcare has created bigger and stronger specimens in ALL of sport not just boxing. It doesn't neccesarily mean BETTER specimens just bigger and stronger.


And also Earnie Shavers really wasn't THAT great he was a hell of a puncher but that was it the modern day equivilent is David Tua which really ain't saying much. If David Tua had Audley Harrison's chin or if Hasim Rahman had more pop then they would be the equal of Earnie Shavers. Every decent boxer with a solid punch or a solid chin whipped Shavers' ass: Quarry, Lyle, Cobb, Ali, Holmes, and hell even Bob Stallings at 21-24 beat Shavers by decision.

Wlad would toy with Shavers and vs Lewis Earnie wouldn't stand much of a chance either. Joe Louis might be a different story only because he was a better boxer and IMO a very underrated puncher and he had a hell of a chin only getting KO'd 2 times in his career #1 vs Schmelling in a fight he didn't properly prepare for and he later avenged and #2 vs Rocky Marciano when he was way old and out of shape

[ross]

Joe Louis might be a different story only because he was a better boxer and IMO a very underrated puncher and he had a hell of a chin only getting KO'd 2 times in his career #1 vs Schmelling in a fight he didn't properly prepare for and he later avenged and #2 vs Rocky Marciano when he was way old and out of shape

Have you seen how many times he was dropped?

Todays heavys may not match on the skill level but im sure they make up for it with the power.

Louis v Galento

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7FjbaaIwvI

Galento fights like Tank Murdoch from every which way but loose, Filo Beddoe would wreck todays heavys

[El Kabong]

Have you seen how many times he was dropped?

Todays heavys may not match on the skill level but im sure they make up for it with the power.

Louis v Galento

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7FjbaaIwvI

Galento fights like Tank Murdoch from every which way but loose, Filo Beddoe would wreck todays heavys

Yes I have seen how many times he was dropped I also take note of the fact he had 72 fights, won 69 of them and 55 by KO and only lost 3 times, and dominated the heavyweight division from 1936 (post Schmelling) to 1950 vs Ezzard Charles.

But what can I say.


As per Haye draining weight to make cruiser....don't they ALL do that? Don't ALL cruiserweights suck weight to make it down to that division so they don't have to fight at heavyweight and so like other fighters at lower weight classes they can use their size against their opponents. Evander Holyfield was a weight drained and he had to prove himself despite being a great cruiserweight and that being the best case scenario David Haye still needs to prove himself, everything he did at cruiserweight is irrelevant at heavyweight.

Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Riddick Bowe, Vitali and there are others above 240 who could punch pretty good.

[rjj tszyu]

Have you seen how many times he was dropped?

Todays heavys may not match on the skill level but im sure they make up for it with the power.

Louis v Galento

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7FjbaaIwvI

Galento fights like Tank Murdoch from every which way but loose, Filo Beddoe would wreck todays heavys

Yes I have seen how many times he was dropped I also take note of the fact he had 72 fights, won 69 of them and 55 by KO and only lost 3 times, and dominated the heavyweight division from 1936 (post Schmelling) to 1950 vs Ezzard Charles.

But what can I say.


As per Haye draining weight to make cruiser....don't they ALL do that? Don't ALL cruiserweights suck weight to make it down to that division so they don't have to fight at heavyweight and so like other fighters at lower weight classes they can use their size against their opponents. Evander Holyfield was a weight drained and he had to prove himself despite being a great cruiserweight and that being the best case scenario David Haye still needs to prove himself, everything he did at cruiserweight is irrelevant at heavyweight.

Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Riddick Bowe, Vitali and there are others above 240 who could punch pretty good.

First of all yes they are all draining to make the weight but IMO Haye is bigger than most other Cruisers including Evander.

Lennox, Bowe and Vitali were all good punchers but I am talking a one punch KO artist in the Tyson Mould. I see them more as accumulative punchers. I actually overlooked Tua sorry.

[ross]

[quote=Lyle;585650]

Evander Holyfield was a weight drained and he had to prove himself despite being a great cruiserweight.

Holyfield bulked up to make heavy, he also used drugs to do it and has been caught still at it.

I bet when Holyfield finally stops fighting and training he will have heart problems

Haye hasnt always been a big boy, he has weight lifted to get there and unfortunately its not the same as being naturally that size, his chin wasnt the best at cruiser and weight lifting wont help it get any better, neither will it help his defensive inabilities.

[Tysonbruno]

Does Haye have a weak chin? because the times he has been hurt were mainly head shots to the temple.

[littlebif]

When he went down against Mormeck he blamed that on the weight saying his legs where like yelly thro the fight,they were after that shot thats for sure lol.Recovered well to take Mormeck out aafter that.