P4P bias towards American based fighters?

[Fenster]

For the record I thought Hopkins beat Taylor twice, & that Marquez won the 2nd fight & could easily have given him the first.

However, the fact is those were fights that could have gone the other way, whilst IMO the John-Marquez decision was just an outright hometown decision & I think this is why it has not helped John the same way.

I think the Ring P4P ratings are pretty good, yes sometimes they may bump a fighter too high on the basis of hype (Taylor, Pavlik), but I feel that overall they are pretty fair. Of the 3 fighters with a claim to P4P#1 since PBF retired (Pac,JMM,JC) only Pacquiao is actually based in the US for training & I think of last week's top 10, at most half are based in the US. The fact is the US is where the big money fights are so that's where they will fight out of. In addition, IMO you will generally get more competitive fights over there, as over here in Europe, there is a tendency for fighters to take it easy a bit in terms of their opposition sometimes.

I agree.. the Ring ratings pretty much mirror the fans view.

The current top 10 have all fought in "world" title fights in America. The non-American based fighters fight there.

Fighters taking it "easy" in other countries? Don't know about that, have you got examples?

[Lance Uppercut]

For the record I thought Hopkins beat Taylor twice, & that Marquez won the 2nd fight & could easily have given him the first.

However, the fact is those were fights that could have gone the other way, whilst IMO the John-Marquez decision was just an outright hometown decision & I think this is why it has not helped John the same way.

I think the Ring P4P ratings are pretty good, yes sometimes they may bump a fighter too high on the basis of hype (Taylor, Pavlik), but I feel that overall they are pretty fair. Of the 3 fighters with a claim to P4P#1 since PBF retired (Pac,JMM,JC) only Pacquiao is actually based in the US for training & I think of last week's top 10, at most half are based in the US. The fact is the US is where the big money fights are so that's where they will fight out of. In addition, IMO you will generally get more competitive fights over there, as over here in Europe, there is a tendency for fighters to take it easy a bit in terms of their opposition sometimes.

I agree.. the Ring ratings pretty much mirror the fans view.

The current top 10 have all fought in "world" title fights in America. The non-American based fighters fight there.

Fighters taking it "easy" in other countries? Don't know about that, have you got examples?

Fighting crap mandatories instead of fight legit fighters. Joe C. did it for almost 9 years, Kessler has been doing it a lot lately, and Chris John has been fighting crap mandatories since he beat JMM(although that is about to change).And almost every german based fighter who holds the WBA title does this.

[JazMerkin]

For the record I thought Hopkins beat Taylor twice, & that Marquez won the 2nd fight & could easily have given him the first.

However, the fact is those were fights that could have gone the other way, whilst IMO the John-Marquez decision was just an outright hometown decision & I think this is why it has not helped John the same way.

I think the Ring P4P ratings are pretty good, yes sometimes they may bump a fighter too high on the basis of hype (Taylor, Pavlik), but I feel that overall they are pretty fair. Of the 3 fighters with a claim to P4P#1 since PBF retired (Pac,JMM,JC) only Pacquiao is actually based in the US for training & I think of last week's top 10, at most half are based in the US. The fact is the US is where the big money fights are so that's where they will fight out of. In addition, IMO you will generally get more competitive fights over there, as over here in Europe, there is a tendency for fighters to take it easy a bit in terms of their opposition sometimes.

I agree.. the Ring ratings pretty much mirror the fans view.

The current top 10 have all fought in "world" title fights in America. The non-American based fighters fight there.

Fighters taking it "easy" in other countries? Don't know about that, have you got examples?

Fighting crap mandatories instead of fight legit fighters. Joe C. did it for almost 9 years, Kessler has been doing it a lot lately, and Chris John has been fighting crap mandatories since he beat JMM(although that is about to change).And almost every german based fighter who holds the WBA title does this.

Yeah that's basically what I meant, although I was more specifically thinking of some of the guys with Sauerland but those mentioned have kind of done the same thing, although they have all faced class opposition at some point.

[Fenster]

For the record I thought Hopkins beat Taylor twice, & that Marquez won the 2nd fight & could easily have given him the first.

However, the fact is those were fights that could have gone the other way, whilst IMO the John-Marquez decision was just an outright hometown decision & I think this is why it has not helped John the same way.

I think the Ring P4P ratings are pretty good, yes sometimes they may bump a fighter too high on the basis of hype (Taylor, Pavlik), but I feel that overall they are pretty fair. Of the 3 fighters with a claim to P4P#1 since PBF retired (Pac,JMM,JC) only Pacquiao is actually based in the US for training & I think of last week's top 10, at most half are based in the US. The fact is the US is where the big money fights are so that's where they will fight out of. In addition, IMO you will generally get more competitive fights over there, as over here in Europe, there is a tendency for fighters to take it easy a bit in terms of their opposition sometimes.

I agree.. the Ring ratings pretty much mirror the fans view.

The current top 10 have all fought in "world" title fights in America. The non-American based fighters fight there.

Fighters taking it "easy" in other countries? Don't know about that, have you got examples?

Fighting crap mandatories instead of fight legit fighters. Joe C. did it for almost 9 years, Kessler has been doing it a lot lately, and Chris John has been fighting crap mandatories since he beat JMM(although that is about to change).And almost every german based fighter who holds the WBA title does this.

I'm pretty sure Calzaghe didn't face many mandatories. Can you name them? And it's no different to what Hopkins was doing with his IBF title, right?

Kessler has had two fights since Calzaghe beat him. Before that he was trying to unify the titles.

Since beating Marquez, John has beaten Rojas - the guy that KO'd current Ring P4P no.10 Caballero.

P4P ranked Kelly Pavlik fought "crap" mandatrory Gary Lockett last year. P4P Cotto fought Gomez? P4P fighters face "crap" too... but it's not always clear why they get the rating

[CutMeMick]

Fenster there's a lot of boxers who aren't based here in the states meaning they live, train in other countries but they fight here because of the cash. They get payed dollars here they fight in the best arenas in the world on TV.

Based to me is someone who lives here, trains here and fights here.


Since 2000.

Naz (trained and fought in the UK)
"Finito" Lopez (trained in Mexico & Japan fought mostly there until the later part of his career)
PongsaShit (Never fucken left Thailand not even on vacation)
Hatton (trains and lives and fights in the UK mostly until recently)
Calzaghe (trains and lives fights in the UK until recently)
Mijares (Mexico trains, lives and fights there mostly)
Castillo (trains, lives in Mexico fought 50/50 in Mexico & US)
Caballero (trains, lives in Panama fights
JMM (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Rafa (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Cotto (trains mostly in PR has also trained in FL. lives in PR)
Calderon (trains in PR, lives in PR fights in both the US & PR)


-Margarito lives in Mexico, trains here in Los Angeles and fights here so I
to me that would make him a US based fighter.

Take Izzy Vasquez he's a Mexican boxer, but he lives, trains and fights here in the states therefore hes a US based boxer.
But as I stated to me your based here if you live, train & fight here.
If you train, live in another country but just fight here I don't consider that a US based fighter like Ricky Hatton.

[Kel]

Fenster there's a lot of boxers who aren't based here in the states meaning they live, train in other countries but they fight here because of the cash. They get payed dollars here they fight in the best arenas in the world on TV.

Based to me is someone who lives here, trains here and fights here.


Since 2000.

Naz (trained and fought in the UK)
"Finito" Lopez (trained in Mexico & Japan fought mostly there until the later part of his career)
PongsaShit (Never fucken left Thailand not even on vacation)
Hatton (trains and lives and fights in the UK mostly until recently)
Calzaghe (trains and lives fights in the UK until recently)
Mijares (Mexico trains, lives and fights there mostly)
Castillo (trains, lives in Mexico fought 50/50 in Mexico & US)
Caballero (trains, lives in Panama fights
JMM (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Rafa (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Cotto (trains mostly in PR has also trained in FL. lives in PR)
Calderon (trains in PR, lives in PR fights in both the US & PR)


-Margarito lives in Mexico, trains here in Los Angeles and fights here so I
to me that would make him a US based fighter.

Take Izzy Vasquez he's a Mexican boxer, but he lives, trains and fights here in the states therefore hes a US based boxer.
But as I stated to me your based here if you live, train & fight here.
If you train, live in another country but just fight here I don't consider that a US based fighter like Ricky Hatton.

Nice sig pic CMM, hunting in the Yorkshire dales?

[antimoron]

P4P is a myth to begin with.. Bias towards american base? maybe.. coz it is where the big fights happening.. if a fighter fights only in his home town or country, chances are he will never be known.. so how do you rate him? If you want to showcase your talent search for big fights and that is in US. and 1 more thing, i never encounter JMM, PAC or any other top SOB calling themselves P4P champs.. Its only Floyd and Ricky who wants it badly and very vocal about it..

[Fenster]

Fenster there's a lot of boxers who aren't based here in the states meaning they live, train in other countries but they fight here because of the cash. They get payed dollars here they fight in the best arenas in the world on TV.

Based to me is someone who lives here, trains here and fights here.


Since 2000.

Naz (trained and fought in the UK)
"Finito" Lopez (trained in Mexico & Japan fought mostly there until the later part of his career)
PongsaShit (Never fucken left Thailand not even on vacation)
Hatton (trains and lives and fights in the UK mostly until recently)
Calzaghe (trains and lives fights in the UK until recently)
Mijares (Mexico trains, lives and fights there mostly)
Castillo (trains, lives in Mexico fought 50/50 in Mexico & US)
Caballero (trains, lives in Panama fights
JMM (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Rafa (trains, lives in Mexico fights in the US)
Cotto (trains mostly in PR has also trained in FL. lives in PR)
Calderon (trains in PR, lives in PR fights in both the US & PR)


-Margarito lives in Mexico, trains here in Los Angeles and fights here so I
to me that would make him a US based fighter.

Take Izzy Vasquez he's a Mexican boxer, but he lives, trains and fights here in the states therefore hes a US based boxer.
But as I stated to me your based here if you live, train & fight here.
If you train, live in another country but just fight here I don't consider that a US based fighter like Ricky Hatton.

NONE of those count (apart from Pingpongshathispants). They have all fought in America or beaten a fighter with ties to America (that's what i meant by based, which i've already covered, so in future read the thread before posting - you plum )

The other day you said this regarding a lack of "name" recognition for small fighters like Lopez -

I just think overall the lower weight guys are assed out when it comes to ratings, paydays, status etc. etc. etc.

I'm thinking along the same lines.

The smaller guys get overlooked because they are not in glamour divisions. It doesn't mean they are not GREAT fighters though, right? Also the majority of smaller guys are non-American based, right? Coincidence?

The same goes for P4P ratings. Without a link to America it seems virtually impossible to be P4P rated (Ring).

Surely this highlights how useless P4P is considering only a select group, with ties to America, will ever get considered. Therefore they are useless when comparing fighters records

[HattonTheHammer]

ive always insisted theres been a biased for many years now on the rankings towards the littler fighters as opposed to the bigguns.

its quite natural a 126pounder will look technically better than a heavyweight because their is far more speed, punches thrown etc.

Doesnt mean though that every single guy below 135 that owns a world title deserves to jump straight over either klitschko brother just because he won it in dramatic fashion.


vic darchinyan is not a better fighter than Vitali Klitschko yet he`ll always be above him in the rankings because of the division he fights in

[Fenster]

ive always insisted theres been a biased for many years now on the rankings towards the littler fighters as opposed to the bigguns.

its quite natural a 126pounder will look technically better than a heavyweight because their is far more speed, punches thrown etc.

Doesnt mean though that every single guy below 135 that owns a world title deserves to jump straight over either klitschko brother just because he won it in dramatic fashion.

vic darchinyan is not a better fighter than Vitali Klitschko yet he`ll always be above him in the rankings because of the division he fights in

The heavyweight champ is meant to be the dominant force in all of boxing. In a real match Vitali would literally kill Darchinyan and Pac and Hatton etc. But in a mythical P4P scenario he wouldn't.

So it defeats the purpose to rate Heavyweights.

Although exceptional ones are P4P rated.


(what a load of bollocks this P4P really is )

[Rantcatrat]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

[Fenster]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

[Rantcatrat]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

[Fenster]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

Right. You can't get away from the American connection.

The point about John is.. he is UNBEATEN with a "WIN" over the current P4P no 2. That gives him better credentials than many a P4P entrant. Many guys enter without beating a fellow P4P member, nor are they as dominant an alphabet champion as John appears to be.

To disprove the American connection we would need this to happen - Sturm beats Abraham, in Germany, after Abraham beats Pavlik? This would give Sturm the beating of Pavlik and Taylor going by formlines. Would they make the German based Sturm P4P?

[Mar]

The whole thing is bias and based on opinion...ask 20 people to give you thier pfp list and you'll get at least 18 different answers, so what ??