P4P bias towards American based fighters?

[Fenster]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

[Rantcatrat]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

[Fenster]

I'm not sure I totally understand your point about Ring p4p bias toward american based fighters, but...

Is the reason the Ring P4P top ten is mostly comprised of fighters who have connections to the US because the most competitive fights are made in the US?

Chris John should be right outside of the top ten p4p. Who has Chris John fought and beat that you would rank in the top ten featherweights since his victory over Marquez?

Kessler should be outside the top ten too. Note that he is ranked #1 in their super middleweight rankings. He is not p4p because he hasn't fought a top ten super-middleweight since losing to Calzaghe.

I've never heard of the other fighter you mentioned.

Erdei is another example for you. Who has Erdei recently fought at 175 that is in your top ten light heavyweights?

Contrast the John, Kessler, and Erdei examples with other fighters at their weights who are ranked in the top ten. Does their competition match up? Maybe it does. You tell me. At 168-175, pre-retirement, Calzaghe fought and beat Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones Jr., and Mikkel Kessler. At the same weight, Bernard Hopkins lost in a close fight to #2 p4p Joe Calzaghe and beat #6 p4p Middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik, and before that beat Winky Wright. Marquez, since losing to John, has fought Pacquiao the p4p #1, gone up in weight to fight former top ten p4p Casamayor, Barrera, Jaurez etc.


Do you have other examples of fighters at similar weight classes to the current top ten p4p that deserve to be more?

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

Right. You can't get away from the American connection.

The point about John is.. he is UNBEATEN with a "WIN" over the current P4P no 2. That gives him better credentials than many a P4P entrant. Many guys enter without beating a fellow P4P member, nor are they as dominant an alphabet champion as John appears to be.

To disprove the American connection we would need this to happen - Sturm beats Abraham, in Germany, after Abraham beats Pavlik? This would give Sturm the beating of Pavlik and Taylor going by formlines. Would they make the German based Sturm P4P?

[Mar]

The whole thing is bias and based on opinion...ask 20 people to give you thier pfp list and you'll get at least 18 different answers, so what ??

[Rantcatrat]

I think you are right - most big fights happen in the US, especially in the glamour/popular divisions, so understandably have a bearing on P4P.

But i'm wondering whether these long reigning champions, that fight outside of America, would be P4P had they an affiliation with the States? Maybe not. Maybe it's just about big/glamourous fights?

As for Chris John.. he has beaten Jose Rojas since "beating" Marquez. Rojas has a KO win over current P4P no.10 Celestino Caballero. What rates Caballero above John? He entered after beating a non-P4P fighter Steve Molitor.

Do you think Abraham will be made P4P if he beats Pavlik? Pavlik was made P4P after beating Taylor although Taylor wasn't P4P. And Abraham's record is arguably better than Pavliks (without the Taylor win If that makes sense).

How about if Froch beats Taylor? Will that make him P4P?

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

Right. You can't get away from the American connection.

The point about John is.. he is UNBEATEN with a "WIN" over the current P4P no 2. That gives him better credentials than many a P4P entrant. Many guys enter without beating a fellow P4P member, nor are they as dominant an alphabet champion as John appears to be.

To disprove the American connection we would need this to happen - Sturm beats Abraham, in Germany, after Abraham beats Pavlik? This would give Sturm the beating of Pavlik and Taylor going by formlines. Would they make the German based Sturm P4P?

It's hard for a fighter to avoid an american connection if you want be in the top ten p4p because so many of the best boxers have a connection with the United States. While I don't necessarily agree, your argument about John may be the exception. It is difficult to name another example.

Is there anything wrong with the American connection?

Ask yourself: if Erdei continues to fight without facing any american connected fighter, does he deserve to be in the top ten p4p? And on that note, how many examples can you name where that would be the case?

[Fenster]

As to John, does he have any other quality wins besides Rojas? Was Rojas even ranked in the top ten for featherweights when he beat him? Molitor was in the featherweight top ten.

Unless I'm mistaken, your questions about Froch and Abraham don't directly follow your point because Froch will fight Taylor (an American) in the United States. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter if he ends up on the p4p list. Maybe he should break the top ten with a win over Taylor or at least get very close. Should Taylor break the top ten with a win over Froch?

Yes, Abraham will be p4p if he beats Pavlik, but again, the fight will be in the US and Pavlik is an American. Thus, he'll be another American-connected fighter who is on the p4p list.

A better question would be whether Sturm ever should be considered a p4p fighter if he never again fights in the US and like Erdei is content to fight German fighters. Does beating the Ghevor's and the Demers' of the world propel you into the top ten p4p?

Right. You can't get away from the American connection.

The point about John is.. he is UNBEATEN with a "WIN" over the current P4P no 2. That gives him better credentials than many a P4P entrant. Many guys enter without beating a fellow P4P member, nor are they as dominant an alphabet champion as John appears to be.

To disprove the American connection we would need this to happen - Sturm beats Abraham, in Germany, after Abraham beats Pavlik? This would give Sturm the beating of Pavlik and Taylor going by formlines. Would they make the German based Sturm P4P?

It's hard for a fighter to avoid an american connection if you want be in the top ten p4p because so many of the best boxers have a connection with the United States. While I don't necessarily agree, your argument about John may be the exception. It is difficult to name another example.

Is there anything wrong with the American connection?

Ask yourself: if Erdei continues to fight without facing any american connected fighter, does he deserve to be in the top ten p4p? And on that note, how many examples can you name where that would be the case?

No.

But it does highlight a bias. Is that justifed considering the majority of big fights happen in the States? Probably yes. Maybe it also shows it's easier for Americans to get recognition? Or maybe the competition in America is far tougher than anywhere else?

Zsolt Erdei isn't good enough to be P4P. There's half-a-dozen light-heavyweights in front of him. Guys like Kessler, Hasegawa, Abraham have all shown top level form/skill. They lack the American-connected win though.

Where it starts to look inconsistent is here - I noticed Hopkins entered The Ring P4P in 1999 (according to a certain list posted). I thought it was after he beat Trinidad in 2001, which is perfectly understandable. But 1999 Hopkins had no MAJOR win. He must have been awarded the P4P spot for successfully defending his alphabet title. This is no different to plenty of non-American based alphabet holders, right? I wonder if Hopkins had been from a different continent whether this would have the case? Or maybe P4P was weak in 1999?

[Trainer Monkey]

When only 2 of the top 10 are currently American,Im not buying what your selling
3 are Mexican,is there a Mexican bias?
2 are British,a British bias perhaps?
Of course there's an American connection,this is where the big money fights happen

[Fenster]

When only 2 of the top 10 are currently American,Im not buying what your selling
3 are Mexican,is there a Mexican bias?
2 are British,a British bias perhaps?
Of course there's an American connection,this is where the big money fights happen

I'm not selling anything.

But yes, the two Americans, two Brits and three Mexicans have all fought "world" title fights in America, hence a connection to America. That fact was established on page one.

Hope this helps.