ICB Where did you learn to play chess mate?

[brucelee]

Is everyone a chess boffin on here apart from me?

I can play chess but I'm not particularly good. I played a bit in school and was about the second best there (out of those of us that actually played chess). There was a strange boy, who was always far too good for me. And he went to some kind of local chess club too.These days I can move the pieces around and maybe take a few pieces on the way. But as for strategies and really thinking about it properly I am nondescript. I play Scrabble much better!

Don't worry miles, I'm also below average after many years of not playing chess.

I could hardly remember my favorite opening positions much less naming them.

[CGM]

Yeah bruce, we decided to play out the position after Black's ninth move in your game, because we didn't really agree on some points about the play of your Computer program (Black). Guess what, we still don't really agree. As it stands, white is a pawn up, but at the moment his pawn position is not the greatest. I think Bilbo considers that Black's kingside, particlarly the h-pawn, is weak, positionally it might be true, it remains to be seen whether or not White can take advantage.

He could have taken advantage had he followed my h4 move. Now, he's positionally at a disadvantaged. He could not hide his king anymore at queen side. black's bishop is in attacking position. It could have been neutralized had white castled at queen side.

By the way, the black's h-pawn is strong depending on how you would use it. With the current position, I am of the strong belief that it's strong.

White's pawns king side can now be destroyed.

I just couldn't believe that bilbo is rating black's moves (my computer) as below average.

White's b4 move is bad!!!! Followed by another bad move at a4.

Please refer to my first analysis for possible clues.

If you're familiar with the king's gambit, you can use your pawn at h5 in the same manner.

I'm not sure I would have played 9.Qd2 and 10.h4 Although it worked out for you in the end, I think Black's subsequent play kind of helped

As White I might have played somethng like 9.Nh4 10.c3 11.Qf3, and maybe even 12.Ne3, to try and occupy the square f5. Maybe I can't do it all right away, depending on how black plays

[brucelee]

white could have moved b3 instead of b4.Anyway, it's true that your move usually depends on how your opponent moves. I could not remember the specific game but If my memory doesn't fail me, Polgar or some superGM made the same move on h4.

[CGM]

OK, well get that gameknot account done, and I look forward to playing you.

[brucelee]

my school has put a restriction on games. I can not open gameknot here.wahhhhh.I can't even open yahoo games.

that means, i will be playing at home. sorry CGM. I'll activate the account later if my connection at home is good.

[Kev]

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

[brucelee]

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

I'll take your word for it Bilbo. I'll try to look for GMs playing this line.. and if I can't find anyone doing this line after a thorough research (it would take me at least a week because of my sked), I'll agree with you wholeheartedly.

Anyway, you're not a junior player anymore and i consider myself a junior player because I'm playing that line so you have a point.

[Kev]

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

I'll take your word for it Bilbo. I'll try to look for GMs playing this line.. and if I can't find anyone doing this line after a thorough research (it would take me at least a week because of my sked), I'll agree with you wholeheartedly.

Anyway, you're not a junior player anymore and i consider myself a junior player because I'm playing that line so you have a point.

I'm only a beginning player really Bruce, lightyears away from master level. I do play the Italian Game as black however and know the main opening lines.

You don't need to do a thorough search for the move, just the latest Megadatabse 2009 shows that after 6.Bxf6 white has replied with Qxf6 over 700 times compared to 16 times for gxf6. It's just not the best move in the position.

After Qxf6 Nd5 is pretty harmless just move the queen back to d8.

[Pugilistic]

I'm quite surprised actually.

Ice seemed to be a nice genuine guy with good knowledge.

Well done to Bilbo and others for spotting his lies and exposing him. I never noticed anything, Probably because i am not as active on here as i used to be.

Just to let you know, Ice has a boxng account on boxingscene under the name of Burning Desire.

[brucelee]

Adolf Albin vs Rudolf SpielmannVienna 1914 · Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Italian Four Knights Variation (C50) · 0-1
Esteban Canal vs Paul F JohnerKarlsbad 1929 · Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Canal Variation (C50) · 1-0


Okay. Qxf6 is canal variation of the giuoco piano.

It doesnt mean however that the computer made a wrong move when it it made gxf6.

[Kev]

Adolf Albin vs Rudolf SpielmannVienna 1914 · Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Italian Four Knights Variation (C50) · 0-1
Esteban Canal vs Paul F JohnerKarlsbad 1929 · Italian Game: Giuoco Pianissimo. Canal Variation (C50) · 1-0


Okay. Qxf6 is canal variation of the giuoco piano.

It doesnt mean however that the computer made a wrong move when it it made gxf6.

It didn't blunder but it made an anti positional objectively weaker move, if that was not the case then gxf6 would be another line in that opening but it simply is not.

It would be like white playing 1.e4 1.e5 2.d4 and black responding with d6, just not a good move and no GM would play it. Why deliberately and permanently weaken your kingside when you have a perfectly safe and non weakening way to take the piece?

Anyway its my belief that in the current position between me and CGM white is clearly better and black is fighting just to save the game imo.

Once the center is opened up Black's king is vulnurable everywhere which will probably force him to make exchanges to ward of attack and once the pieces are off it's a winning game for white in the endgame. If you take off the pieces, and take off black's e and f6 pawns along with white's d3 and d4 pawns its impossible to argue that white isn't clearly better.

Black will have weak pawns on d6 f6 and h5, 4 pawn islands to whites 3.

He needs to try and drum up on serious counterplay but I don't see how he can go about it.

[brucelee]

Just for your information bro,

Skalli(MRC) vs Leko (HUN) Giuoco Piano (C54)

Leko won playing black with 9. Bxf6 gxf6 (World Chess Olympiad, Moscow Russia)

Leko is a superGM.

[Salty]

I wouldn't mind playing a game of chess, I need to get my brain into gear again for uni, so I signed up for a yahoo account. If anyone wants a game just send me a PM

[Kev]

Just for your information bro,

Skalli(MRC) vs Leko (HUN) Giuoco Piano (C54)

Leko won playing black with 9. Bxf6 gxf6 (World Chess Olympiad, Moscow Russia)

Leko is a superGM.

An entirely different position Bruce, and here Leko was playing a mainline, and one I've used myself and won.

The differences here are that firstly black has already castled, this is critical as now the king can go h8 where it will be completely safe as the white darksquared bishop has already gone. Secondly castling means the rooks are already connected and can be doubled along the g file. Thirdly black has brought his b8 knight over to the kingside as well and has the makings of a strong attack.

This is entirely different, none of these advantages were present in your game against Kasparov.

Compare Leko's position after move 9 with Kasparov's against you on move 9. They are world's apart. Leko's king is safe with Kh8 being a secure home, his rooks can come to the g file if necessary. In the event the knight exchange means obviously the king won't go to h8 in this particular game but you can see the idea.

In the Leko game he played it correctly and black is marginally better already by move 10.

No move is the same in every game you have to evaluate the differences.

[CGM]

My analysis of your game with Bilbo:
White: Bilbo
Black: CGM

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.d3 d6
5.Nc3 Nf6
6.Bg5 h6
7.Bxf6 gxf6
8.Nd5 Be6
9.Qd2 h5

Same move I’ve made eh. Black’s playing it very well. Would you agree now Bilbo that the opening of black is strong?

10.b4 Bb6

B4!? White is losing control of the center game.
11.a4 Nd4

A4 and b4 is too aggressive. This will suffer in the end-game with white controlling the center.
12.Nxd4 Bxd4
13.c3 c6
14.cxd4 cxd5
15 exd5

I’m excited how black would castle or would it castle?. White could not castle anymore queenside. B4 is bad move. Castling king side is way too dangerous with the g flank opened for the black rook.

Black's pawn at h5 is way too dangerous with black's bishop lurking.

No I do not agree, seriously I'm baffled how you and CGM can evaluate this current position as good for black, white has a virtually winning game already. 7.gxf6 is NOT the best move, Qxf6 is, Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense, hence why you never see this opening played in grandmaster chess, but only at a junior level.

You object to me calling this a schoolboy opening but as I keep saying that is what it is! It's like the Fried Liver Attack, another schoolboy opening. They are both extrememly well known opening ideas played extensively in junior chess.

Again black did not play this position well, and was not even close to A level standard let alone GM level. It played a poor game and would have been fairly easy to defeat for any player over the 1400 level.

I never said Black's position was good Bilbo, I was just challenging some of your assertions about certain moves and positions, such as ...

Nd5 does nothing at all if black knows the proper defense, its an extremely common chess line known to give white no advantage against a proper defense

How can 9.Nd5 be extremly common when the position after 8...Be6 rarely occurs? 7...gxf6 changes the essential nature of the position, and traditional assessments of the move Nd5 for white no longer apply.