Can one really be ranked P4P when you demand catch weights?

[Cortez The Killer]

Bad/pointless original post receive many response.

[Spicoli]

catchweights have nothing to do with p4p rankings.

I have no problem with fighters that agree with each other fighting at whatever weight. As brought up before my only problem is the title that's on the line.

Have always thought the p4p a media frenzy...a tag line for quick consumption that is extremly subjective.A dominate and defending fighter meeting his biggest challenges in a given division is what we need. Shite....people focus on a catchweight prior to a bout but how about the actual "unofficial' weight of each fighter once the bell rings.A catchweight too and fro.

[Kev]

catchweights have nothing to do with p4p rankings.

I have no problem with fighters that agree with each other fighting at whatever weight. As brought up before my only problem is the title that's on the line.

Have always thought the p4p a media frenzy...a tag line for quick consumption that is extremly subjective.A dominate and defending fighter meeting his biggest challenges in a given division is what we need. Shite....people focus on a catchweight prior to a bout but how about the actual "unofficial' weight of each fighter once the bell rings.A catchweight too and fro.

Why does it really matter what weight the fight is at, what belt is on the line, what division (or not) that the fight is being held?

What's important is that the best fight each other.

If Manny were to fight Floyd, Shane or Miguel at a catchweight I don't care less. All I care about is that they fight at the best weight that will give us the best fight!

If Manny is too small at 147 let them fight at 143, I don't care if he's fighting for a world title really, it doesn't make the fight any less important, or more importantly entertaining, and that ultimately is all I care about.

[JonesJrMayweather]

catchweights have nothing to do with p4p rankings.

I have no problem with fighters that agree with each other fighting at whatever weight. As brought up before my only problem is the title that's on the line.

Have always thought the p4p a media frenzy...a tag line for quick consumption that is extremly subjective.A dominate and defending fighter meeting his biggest challenges in a given division is what we need. Shite....people focus on a catchweight prior to a bout but how about the actual "unofficial' weight of each fighter once the bell rings.A catchweight too and fro.

Why does it really matter what weight the fight is at, what belt is on the line, what division (or not) that the fight is being held?

What's important is that the best fight each other.

If Manny were to fight Floyd, Shane or Miguel at a catchweight I don't care less. All I care about is that they fight at the best weight that will give us the best fight!

If Manny is too small at 147 let them fight at 143, I don't care if he's fighting for a world title really, it doesn't make the fight any less important, or more importantly entertaining, and that ultimately is all I care about.

I agree that the best fights should be made, but if 143 is too light for the bigger guys then what?

[generalbulldog]

I admit I did complained when I thought the titles were on the line for the catchweight,but thinking about it now people like Bilbo has a point. I just want to see great fighters fight. So a healthy weight for both at a catch weight is fine.

I mean did anyone really complain when JCC fought Whitaker at a catchweight? Or how about Hopkins and Oscar DLH? How about Pavlik-Hopkins?

In this day and age when there are so many championships per division, it really doesn't matter anymore about a title. It just lost it's luster with so many champions per division.

[brucelee]

I admit I did complained when I thought the titles were on the line for the catchweight,but thinking about it now people like Bilbo has a point. I just want to see great fighters fight. So a healthy weight for both at a catch weight is fine.

I mean did anyone really complain when JCC fought Whitaker at a catchweight? Or how about Hopkins and Oscar DLH? How about Pavlik-Hopkins?

In this day and age when there are so many championships per division, it really doesn't matter anymore about a title. It just lost it's luster with so many champions per division.

well said. nice point.

[Hulk]

The catchweights are bullshit.

Theres no two ways about it.

Why is there so much hate about catchweights?

I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?

The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.

If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.

They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.

We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.

That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.

What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.

Well my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.

Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.

So are mouth pieces.

And rounds.

Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?

lol

The weight classes are there for a reason.

Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.

Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.

That is not the Christian way.

And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.

[JonesJrMayweather]

The catchweights are bullshit.

Theres no two ways about it.

Why is there so much hate about catchweights?

I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?

The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.

If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.

They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.

We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.

That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.

What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.

Well my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.

Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.

So are mouth pieces.

And rounds.

Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?

lol

The weight classes are there for a reason.

Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.

Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.

That is not the Christian way.

And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.

[/ loved the sarcasm at the end.

[Kev]

The catchweights are bullshit.

Theres no two ways about it.

Why is there so much hate about catchweights?

I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?

The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.

If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.

They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.

We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.

That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.

What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.

Well my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.

Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.

So are mouth pieces.

And rounds.

Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?

lol

The weight classes are there for a reason.

Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.

Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.

That is not the Christian way.

And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.

Nah I don't agree with that at all. There is no 'his' weight for any fighter.

Your argument is kind of lost on me to be honest. The ONLY reason we have weight divisions and mouthguards is for health and safety. If all mankind weighed the same, or if the size and weight of humans made no difference to boxing performance we would have no weight classses at all, do you agree?

It would be like tennis, golf, chess etc with everybody competing against everybody, no allowances made for size. That would be preferable and ideal.

Unfortunately size does make a difference so the weight classes were invented purely to allow little guys to have fights and be competitive, a weight class for everybody to fight in.

But its man made and artificial. Mouthgaurds are only there for health and safety too, if they wern't needed we would get rid of them.

Shorts are there for public decency and to protect a mans bits from view (and harm) whilst the gloves, although originally for public safety are now very much a feature of how boxing is fought. It would fundamentally change the nature of how boxers fight if you took the gloves away, basically turning boxing into something else, bare knuckle fighting which is a different sport.

Back to the weights, as I said ultimately they are only there to serve man, to allow smaller guys to fight each other. They exist for NO other reason tham to facilitate competition between guys smaller than heavyweight.

So in a sense your argument is illogical as now you are seeking to prevent a fight taking place when the only reason weight classes exist is to allow these fights to happen.

You say Pacquaio should move up and fight at 147 to beat Cotto in HIS weight class but why? I personally couldn't care less if Manny beats Miguel at 147 lbs or 143 lbs, what matters is that they fight at an agreed weight.

If Cotto was too drained at 143 then he can reject the fight, likewise if Manny feels 147 is too big he can reject the fight but allowing them to fight at a catchweight at least gives them more leverage and the chance for this incredible fight to happen.

Weight classes is just a way to facilitate the possibility of arranging fights don't let it become a stumbling block!

Remember my Christian friend and take heed of the Jews who for almost two thousand years were commanded by God to carry out the sacrifices and rituals that made them aware of their sin and their need for salvation and a Saviour.

When their Saviour did come, Jesus the Christ, to free them from their bondage of ritual and sacrifice they rejected Him on account of him violating the very laws He created to make them aware of their sin and need for God's power to deliver them from it!

This is typical of mankind! Rituals (and weight classes) are created to serve our needs and we choose to become slaves to them and willingly enter in to bondage!

The weight that Cotto and Manny fight at IS NOT IMPORTANT, what matters is THAT THEY DO!

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

Aren't P4P Rankings all hypothetical? Why should weight even matter?

Welcome to Saddoboxing mate.

I agree that there is WAY too much emphasis on P4P. Maybe emphasis is the wrong word but the ratings just seems TOO Official these days...
They are re just a Magazine ratings... Ratings from a magazine that is owned by a Boxer come Promoter.

Its all very incestuous.

Now onto Catchweights. They suck. They all ways have and always will. Weightclasses are there for a reason. I mean, as it is there are too many weightclasses in the lower divisions!

Health and safety aside, negotiating over 3 pounds is IMO very unmanly.

Again i bring up my point about the Heavyweights... How is it that there is a complete objection to introducing an intermediate weightclass to RE (Note the word RE) Bridge the gap between Heavyweight and Cruiserweight, yet so many of you think that it is perfectly fine to fight at catchweights?

Fighters these days strip down to their lowest weight to fight the smallest opponents possible (again something i find very unmanly but there you go.) so its safe to assume that if they could go lower, they would..

So I just dont understand... If we all know Cotto wont perform well at 143. And we all know its a huge risk to ask a 37 year old (Mosley) to strip even more poundage at this point in his career... Why make a point for Catchweight's if there CLEARLY not viable?

If the fight doesn't work, the fight doesn't work period.

[Kev]

Aren't P4P Rankings all hypothetical? Why should weight even matter?

Welcome to Saddoboxing mate.

I agree that there is WAY too much emphasis on P4P. Maybe emphasis is the wrong word but the ratings just seems TOO Official these days...
They are re just a Magazine ratings... Ratings from a magazine that is owned by a Boxer come Promoter.

Its all very incestuous.

Now onto Catchweights. They suck. They all ways have and always will. Weightclasses are there for a reason. I mean, as it is there are too many weightclasses in the lower divisions!

Health and safety aside, negotiating over 3 pounds is IMO very unmanly.

Again i bring up my point about the Heavyweights... How is it that there is a complete objection to introducing an intermediate weightclass to RE (Note the word RE) Bridge the gap between Heavyweight and Cruiserweight, yet so many of you think that it is perfectly fine to fight at catchweights?

Fighters these days strip down to their lowest weight to fight the smallest opponents possible (again something i find very unmanly but there you go.) so its safe to assume that if they could go lower, they would..

So I just dont understand... If we all know Cotto wont perform well at 143. And we all know its a huge risk to ask a 37 year old (Mosley) to strip even more poundage at this point in his career... Why make a point for Catchweight's if there CLEARLY not viable?

If the fight doesn't work, the fight doesn't work period.

We don't know that Cotto cannot make 143 or 144 lbs. He looked drained in his last fights at 140 but a halfway house might be a balance.

Cotto is much bigger than Manny so for Manny to fight him at 147 is to his disadvantage. 143-44 represents a compromise. And you could hardly call Manny of being unmanly. If he was a career junior welter weight then fair enough, suck it up and move up a division but this is a guy who has already stormed through 7 (SEVEN!!!!!!) weight classes, so cutting his some slack over a few lbs in order to allow a MEGAFIGHT to happen is hardly a big deal.

As for another weight class between cruiser and heavyweight I don't believe the boxers themselves want it. Very few heavyweights would want to move down to a halfway division and miss out on the glamour of being in the heavyweights if they can fight there, it represents the pinnacle of our great sport after all, the Premier Division so to speak, you win the heavyweight title you are the best boxer in the world, in an absolute sense.

Also there is such a thing as critical mass and its been proven in countless fights in the heavyweight division over the years that beyond a certain point sheer size is simply no longer an advantage. The extra bulk comes at the cost of speed and mobility and even power, very few giant heavyweights have been one punch knockout artists.

So in the heavyweight division the difference between a man weighing 215 lbs (providing he is able to use his superior speed and mobility) and a man weighing even up to 300 lbs makes no difference in favouring one fighter over another. The better boxer will likely win, an example most would expect David Haye to smash Nikolay Valuev, certainly the 70 lbs or so he gave up would be offset by the much greater speed of the smaller man.

This simply isn't the case at lower weights where size matters more, although I do feel truly great fighters are able to overcome that to a greater degree.

But regarding catchweights, for someone like Manny who began at straweight I believe he's already proven himself man enough by tearing through 7 weight classes. We can definitely cut him some slack here and imo it's Cotto who is not the 'man' if he feels unable to cut 3 or 4 lbs compared to the 20 or lbs Pacquaio would have moved up in the past couple years.

If it was Hatton wanting a catchweight at 143 I agree gay as fuck, but Manny has earned the right and the 'machismo' burden to give something up to allow the fight to happen and prove he's the best falls very much on Cotto, Floyd or Mosely in this case imo.

[generalbulldog]

Just wondering, because they have manny number one, but most of the time the fighters that have been ranked number 1 have gone to other's divisions and beaten them. RJJ, PERNELL, FLOYD, SHANE. Not once did either of them demand a catch weight.

I forgot to answer this directly towards you. Sugar Ray Leonard VS. Lalonde for the LHW championship at 168 and considering Sugar Ray was the #1 p4p. Julio Cesar Chavez VS. Pernell Whtaker at 145 for his Welterweight title and JCC was the #1 p4p. Oscar De La Hoya VS. Bernard Hopkins at 158 for the MW titles, even though Oscar at that time was not the #1 p4p but he was in the late 90s.

And no one was complaining about catch weights with Hopkins-DLH, Hopkins-Wright, Hopkins-Pavlik, JCC-Whitaker, Floyd-Marquez, Leonard-Lalonde, Oscar-Pacman (And 99.99% of the people out there predicted DLH by KO).

[Jody Lane]

Just wondering, because they have manny number one, but most of the time the fighters that have been ranked number 1 have gone to other's divisions and beaten them. RJJ, PERNELL, FLOYD, SHANE. Not once did either of them demand a catch weight.

Hey these guys don't have to fight Pac. If they want to stay at the weight that is comfortable for them, let them fight someone else. No one is holding a gun to their heads.

[Kev]

Just wondering, because they have manny number one, but most of the time the fighters that have been ranked number 1 have gone to other's divisions and beaten them. RJJ, PERNELL, FLOYD, SHANE. Not once did either of them demand a catch weight.

Hey these guys don't have to fight Pac. If they want to stay at the weight that is comfortable for them, let them fight someone else. No one is holding a gun to their heads.

What I find incredible about this is that less than two years ago if anyone speculated that Manny could move up to knockout Oscar De La Hoya, destroy Ricky Hatton and then go and fight Miguel Cotto everyone would say that person was FUCKING INSANE!!!!

Yet now these same people are now moaning because Manny doesn't want to move up to 147 lbs to face Cotto and instead wants the fight at 143-144

Let me ask people this, if Bernard Hopkins chose to fight David Haye at an agreed weight limit of 210lbs would people be moaning that BHop was a coward in forcing Haye to shed pounds? (actually some probably would ) but if they did they would be fucking idiots.

Haye vs Hopkins at 210-215 lbs would be a great matchup and a tremendous fight we'd all love to see, at heavyweight it simply couldn't happen as Hopkins would be giving up too much but if a catchweight allows for a potentially great fight to happen that otherwise wouldn't then let's use the flexibility of catchweights.

It's just about making weight issues work FOR us and not AGAINST us.

It's an interesting universal human trait for mankind to create traditions, rituals, beaurocracies and rules to help mankind and then for us to lose sight of why they were created in the first place and elevate the particular ritual, law, tradition, rule etc above the reason it was enacted in the first place.

Jesus was full of condemnation for the blindness of the Pharisees who did this, and we all see it in religion, people totally devoted to ritual and religious practice but completely missing the true meaning of why they are carrying these out in the first place. The rituals and rites become that persons true God.

That's what these opposing a catchweight are doing, using the weight divisions, which were created to help make fights between people of different weights, now to actually be a reason for stopping a fight taking place, its lunacy.

[Kev]

Have always thought the p4p a media frenzy...a tag line for quick consumption that is extremly subjective.A dominate and defending fighter meeting his biggest challenges in a given division is what we need. Shite....people focus on a catchweight prior to a bout but how about the actual "unofficial' weight of each fighter once the bell rings.A catchweight too and fro.

Why does it really matter what weight the fight is at, what belt is on the line, what division (or not) that the fight is being held?

What's important is that the best fight each other.

If Manny were to fight Floyd, Shane or Miguel at a catchweight I don't care less. All I care about is that they fight at the best weight that will give us the best fight!

If Manny is too small at 147 let them fight at 143, I don't care if he's fighting for a world title really, it doesn't make the fight any less important, or more importantly entertaining, and that ultimately is all I care about.

I agree that the best fights should be made, but if 143 is too light for the bigger guys then what?

Well obviously if they feel that is too light they don't agree to fight there! It's all about increasing options. If Manny feels he's at too much of a disadvantage to fight guys like Cotto and Mosely at 147 lbs then the fight ain't going to happen.

BUT if there is the possibility of the two fighters negotiating an agreed weight between themselves the chances of the fight happening are greatly increased!

I can understand the argument that fighting in a proper weight class is the ideal but why on earth would anyone put the importance of fighters sticking to weight classes above the fights happening in the first place, as I said before it's such a ridiculous mindset!

In all seriousness if the fights can't happen at 147 lbs because Manny feels he's too disadvantaged are some of you guys saying you would rather not have the fight at all then let the fighters agree a weight suitable to both so the fight can happen

If any of you really value the importance of fighting in strict weight classes over the importance of the best fights being made at all I put it to you in the nicest possible way that you are freaking nuts!