Jones Jr vs Green

[CFH]

Green is definitely world class in that he's one of the very best in his weight class, or has been in the past.

The Ring have had him in the top 4 or 5 at supermiddle before and he will likely crash the top 10 at crusierweight soon now he's come back.

He's a former world champ, how is he not world class?

Do you only count the best two fighters in a weight class world class? If so, what is elite?

The term world class is vague and very subjective, hence why I asked you for your definition. Would I consider Danny Green a "world class" fighter? Not these days, in his prime I guess a case could be made. I guess it all depends on how you define the term. I've always considered Green to be an excellent domestic-level fighter. I was not a big boxing fan when he was in his prime though, so I'm not really qualified to argue about that.

When I think of "world class", I think of fighters who I perceive to be a step above fighters like Green.

Green is easily on the same level as guys such as Junior Witter, Paulie Malignaggi and Luis Collazo.

He's only ever lost to world champs, in fact only two men have ever beaten him, Marcus Beyer, a prime Beyer it has to be said and Green dominated him in the first fight flooring him 3 times with Beyer badly cut, but then the Germans jobbed him by disqualifying him to save Beyer.

The rematch Green inexplicably decided to box and lost a decision although he stepped it up in the last couple rounds and floored Beyer again.

Mundine beat him handily on points but he's the only man to do so.

I don't think it can be seriously argued that he hasn't been one of the best super middleweights over the past 5 or 6 years, and he was struggling to make weight I believe, hence the move to light heavyweight and now cruiser.

He's not an easy nights work for anybody, certainly not a 40 year old past his prime with suspect punch resistance.

It's a different fight altogether than Lacy and Sheika.

Should be a good'un.

He hasn't even fought at SMW since 2006, over three years ago. I'm not arguing that he's not a very good fighter, but I really think you're overstating it a bit. He hasn't been a relevant fighter above the domestic level for some time.

I hope he knocks Jones cold though.

[Kev]

The term world class is vague and very subjective, hence why I asked you for your definition. Would I consider Danny Green a "world class" fighter? Not these days, in his prime I guess a case could be made. I guess it all depends on how you define the term. I've always considered Green to be an excellent domestic-level fighter. I was not a big boxing fan when he was in his prime though, so I'm not really qualified to argue about that.

When I think of "world class", I think of fighters who I perceive to be a step above fighters like Green.

Green is easily on the same level as guys such as Junior Witter, Paulie Malignaggi and Luis Collazo.

He's only ever lost to world champs, in fact only two men have ever beaten him, Marcus Beyer, a prime Beyer it has to be said and Green dominated him in the first fight flooring him 3 times with Beyer badly cut, but then the Germans jobbed him by disqualifying him to save Beyer.

The rematch Green inexplicably decided to box and lost a decision although he stepped it up in the last couple rounds and floored Beyer again.

Mundine beat him handily on points but he's the only man to do so.

I don't think it can be seriously argued that he hasn't been one of the best super middleweights over the past 5 or 6 years, and he was struggling to make weight I believe, hence the move to light heavyweight and now cruiser.

He's not an easy nights work for anybody, certainly not a 40 year old past his prime with suspect punch resistance.

It's a different fight altogether than Lacy and Sheika.

Should be a good'un.

He hasn't even fought at SMW since 2006, over three years ago. I'm not arguing that he's not a very good fighter, but I really think you're overstating it a bit. He hasn't been a relevant fighter above the domestic level for some time.

I hope he knocks Jones cold though.

What do you mean he hasn't been relavent?

He won a lighthevyweight world title in December 07, was rated in the top 5 light heavies and then retired!

He didn't come back until April of this year and has won both of his comeback fights by knockout.

Do you not regard Floyd Mayweather as world class anymore as his last fight was before Green won his world title at 175?

He's a dangerous fighter, absolutely world class, he fought for a world title twice at super middle, got beat fair and square once but robbed in his other shot, and then he went up to 175 and won a world title.

He's never been beaten up, never been in any real draining wars and although 36 has only had 30 fights and there's not too much wear on him.

In my book that makes him world class. Not elite or p4p, not close, but he's definitely a world class operator, and has fought at the highest level for some time.

[CFH]

Green is easily on the same level as guys such as Junior Witter, Paulie Malignaggi and Luis Collazo.

He's only ever lost to world champs, in fact only two men have ever beaten him, Marcus Beyer, a prime Beyer it has to be said and Green dominated him in the first fight flooring him 3 times with Beyer badly cut, but then the Germans jobbed him by disqualifying him to save Beyer.

The rematch Green inexplicably decided to box and lost a decision although he stepped it up in the last couple rounds and floored Beyer again.

Mundine beat him handily on points but he's the only man to do so.

I don't think it can be seriously argued that he hasn't been one of the best super middleweights over the past 5 or 6 years, and he was struggling to make weight I believe, hence the move to light heavyweight and now cruiser.

He's not an easy nights work for anybody, certainly not a 40 year old past his prime with suspect punch resistance.

It's a different fight altogether than Lacy and Sheika.

Should be a good'un.

He hasn't even fought at SMW since 2006, over three years ago. I'm not arguing that he's not a very good fighter, but I really think you're overstating it a bit. He hasn't been a relevant fighter above the domestic level for some time.

I hope he knocks Jones cold though.

What do you mean he hasn't been relavent?

He won a lighthevyweight world title in December 07, was rated in the top 5 light heavies and then retired!

He didn't come back until April of this year and has won both of his comeback fights by knockout.

Do you not regard Floyd Mayweather as world class anymore as his last fight was before Green won his world title at 175?

He's a dangerous fighter, absolutely world class, he fought for a world title twice at super middle, got beat fair and square once but robbed in his other shot, and then he went up to 175 and won a world title.

He's never been beaten up, never been in any real draining wars and although 36 has only had 30 fights and there's not too much wear on him.

In my book that makes him world class. Not elite or p4p, not close, but he's definitely a world class operator, and has fought at the highest level for some time.

He beats Drews and then retired. Aside from that fight he hadn't fought anyone of note since Mundine and he retired right after he won the belt. He's had one fight of any consequence (on an international stage) since 2006; he retired afterwards without fighting any siginificant fights. How was he relevant?

[OumaFan]

I'd watch. Don't see any reason to get real excited but I'd watch.

[Spicoli]

Pointless really.This is manufactured.Well at least ol Roy has not turned to 'wrastlin to make his coin yet.

[ICB]

I think RJJ would beat Danny Green, similar to how Anthony Mundine did it. Based on there styles being somewhat similar. But i do think Danny Green has been unlucky.

As Bilbo said he was very unlucky twice against Markus Beyer, and in reality probably should of won both fights. His only real true loss was too Anthony Mundine, who i think is very skilled although he hasn't took any risks in quite sometime which is disappointing.

I don't know if he is world class though, and i don't think just because you win a world title. It means it automatically makes you world class either, i mean Gavin Rees won a world title does anyone consider Gavis Rees world class ?

I mean would Danny Green beat any of the top fighters, at Light Heavyweight ? guys like Tavoris Cloud, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson, Bernard Hopkins, Zsolt Erdei, Jean Pascal, RJJ, Antonio Tarver ?

To be world class you have to be able to beat the top fighters, in the division and i don't think Danny Green could. I think he's a solid fighter who deserves a break, but im really not sure about him being world class.

I mean he's beaten guys like Eric Lucas, and thats another fighter who won a world title and made a few defenses. But again i don't think he was world class either, and he was lucky he got a shot against a pretty weak champion.

And the same with Markus Beyer again he won a world title, but when i watch him do i consider him elite ? no i don't alot of different things come into it. Like how strong a division is, who they won there title off ETC. And lets be honest the Super Middleweight division has been weak for sometime.

Since Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Steve Collins, all retired. The top American fighters only briefly stayed there and moved up, can you imagine if fighters like James Toney, RJJ, stayed at Super Middleweight ? or even if Bernard Hopkins had moved up.

Do you think fighters like Markus Beyer, Eric Lucas, would even stand a chance at winning a belt ? no they wouldn't there solid fighters but not world class fighters. Who picked up belts because the division was weak.

[Kev]

I think RJJ would beat Danny Green, similar to how Anthony Mundine did it. Based on there styles being somewhat similar. But i do think Danny Green has been unlucky.

As Bilbo said he was very unlucky twice against Markus Beyer, and in reality probably should of won both fights. His only real true loss was too Anthony Mundine, who i think is very skilled although he hasn't took any risks in quite sometime which is disappointing.

I don't know if he is world class though, and i don't think just because you win a world title. It means it automatically makes you world class either, i mean Gavin Rees won a world title does anyone consider Gavis Rees world class ?

I mean would Danny Green beat any of the top fighters, at Light Heavyweight ? guys like Tavoris Cloud, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson, Bernard Hopkins, Zsolt Erdei, Jean Pascal, RJJ, Antonio Tarver ?

To be world class you have to be able to beat the top fighters, in the division and i don't think Danny Green could. I think he's a solid fighter who deserves a break, but im really not sure about him being world class.

I mean he's beaten guys like Eric Lucas, and thats another fighter who won a world title and made a few defenses. But again i don't think he was world class either, and he was lucky he got a shot against a pretty weak champion.

And the same with Markus Beyer again he won a world title, but when i watch him do i consider him elite ? no i don't alot of different things come into it. Like how strong a division is, who they won there title off ETC. And lets be honest the Super Middleweight division has been weak for sometime.

Since Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Steve Collins, all retired. The top American fighters only briefly stayed there and moved up, can you imagine if fighters like James Toney, RJJ, stayed at Super Middleweight ? or even if Bernard Hopkins had moved up.

Do you think fighters like Markus Beyer, Eric Lucas, would even stand a chance at winning a belt ? no they wouldn't there solid fighters but not world class fighters. Who picked up belts because the division was weak.

This makes no sense whatsoever. By definition the best fighters in any division at any one time are world class. How can they not be?

If you have fought for world titles and operated on the world stage then you have to be world class, else what class are they fighting in?

Green has done far more in his career than Gavin Rees, as you yourself said he's been in with at least 4 world champs and beaten two.

If he's not world class what about guys like Urango, Malignaggi, Witter, Collazo, Berto, Andrade, Pascal etc?

Are none of them world class either?

World class does not equal p4p or elite, it just means they compete at the very highest level, championship fights, and can fight and win against top opposition.

Green has proven he can done that, not against the elite level but he's certainly strong enough to compete at a world stage and its frankly ridiculous to argue otherwise.

According to your logic no fighters are world class other than those in the to 20 p4p or so.

If can win world title and fight in 4 world title fights you are by definition world class, he's not fighting at domestic level, and he's not fighting at Commonwealth, or Pan Asian level. He's world class.

Is Scott Lawton domestic class considering there are many domestic fighters better than him? Should he be regional class? What about Thaxton, is he not domestic class anymore?

When you are winning world titles, and fighting at the world level you have to be world class because that's the class of fighter you are fighting in.

I expect Green could creep back into the Ring top 10 at light heavy or cruiserweight when their next ratings come out which again, by definition would be world class.

I just think sometimes you guys like to split hairs.

[Kev]

And Josh as you seem to be in a most disagreeable mood with me these days, lets at least argue over a subject worthwhile.

Let's discuss the Gulf Of Tonkin incident where the US fabricated a Vietnamese attack on their warship the USS Maddox as a pretext for going to war.

Or Baxter's pharmaceuticals being caught out in a shocking case of injecting 72 kg of vaccine with the Avian Bird Flu virus, or the container of Swine Flu they 'accidently' exploded in a train in Switzerland, interestingly the same location as the first swine flu victims in Switzerland to be diagnosed.

It's a much more interesting subject of discussion than whether a fighter is world class or very good.

[Andre]

And Josh as you seem to be in a most disagreeable mood with me these days, lets at least argue over a subject worthwhile.

Let's discuss the Gulf Of Tonkin incident where the US fabricated a Vietnamese attack on their warship the USS Maddox as a pretext for going to war.

Or Baxter's pharmaceuticals being caught out in a shocking case of injecting 72 kg of vaccine with the Avian Bird Flu virus, or the container of Swine Flu they 'accidently' exploded in a train in Switzerland, interestingly the same location as the first swine flu victims in Switzerland to be diagnosed.

It's a much more interesting subject of discussion than whether a fighter is world class or very good.

So you give up and Josh wins, yes?



Next thread title : What defines 'world class' for you guys ?"

.




For me : Roy Jones outclasses an ex world class fighter in Danny Green.

[Kev]

And Josh as you seem to be in a most disagreeable mood with me these days, lets at least argue over a subject worthwhile.

Let's discuss the Gulf Of Tonkin incident where the US fabricated a Vietnamese attack on their warship the USS Maddox as a pretext for going to war.

Or Baxter's pharmaceuticals being caught out in a shocking case of injecting 72 kg of vaccine with the Avian Bird Flu virus, or the container of Swine Flu they 'accidently' exploded in a train in Switzerland, interestingly the same location as the first swine flu victims in Switzerland to be diagnosed.

It's a much more interesting subject of discussion than whether a fighter is world class or very good.

So you give up and Josh wins, yes?



Next thread title : What defines 'world class' for you guys ?"

.




For me : Roy Jones outclasses an ex world class fighter in Danny Green.

Hardly, its just a man of my intellect would rather put the world to rights and engage in discourse on subjects of greater urgency.

There are an awful lot of strange and sinister goings on in the world today as the machinations of governement plot ever more evil and malevolent scheme.

Unfortunately only a few have eyes to see and ear to hear and its more comforting to ridicule the messenger than to face up to painful realities.

[ICB]

I think RJJ would beat Danny Green, similar to how Anthony Mundine did it. Based on there styles being somewhat similar. But i do think Danny Green has been unlucky.

As Bilbo said he was very unlucky twice against Markus Beyer, and in reality probably should of won both fights. His only real true loss was too Anthony Mundine, who i think is very skilled although he hasn't took any risks in quite sometime which is disappointing.

I don't know if he is world class though, and i don't think just because you win a world title. It means it automatically makes you world class either, i mean Gavin Rees won a world title does anyone consider Gavis Rees world class ?

I mean would Danny Green beat any of the top fighters, at Light Heavyweight ? guys like Tavoris Cloud, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson, Bernard Hopkins, Zsolt Erdei, Jean Pascal, RJJ, Antonio Tarver ?

To be world class you have to be able to beat the top fighters, in the division and i don't think Danny Green could. I think he's a solid fighter who deserves a break, but im really not sure about him being world class.

I mean he's beaten guys like Eric Lucas, and thats another fighter who won a world title and made a few defenses. But again i don't think he was world class either, and he was lucky he got a shot against a pretty weak champion.

And the same with Markus Beyer again he won a world title, but when i watch him do i consider him elite ? no i don't alot of different things come into it. Like how strong a division is, who they won there title off ETC. And lets be honest the Super Middleweight division has been weak for sometime.

Since Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Steve Collins, all retired. The top American fighters only briefly stayed there and moved up, can you imagine if fighters like James Toney, RJJ, stayed at Super Middleweight ? or even if Bernard Hopkins had moved up.

Do you think fighters like Markus Beyer, Eric Lucas, would even stand a chance at winning a belt ? no they wouldn't there solid fighters but not world class fighters. Who picked up belts because the division was weak.

This makes no sense whatsoever. By definition the best fighters in any division at any one time are world class. How can they not be?

If you have fought for world titles and operated on the world stage then you have to be world class, else what class are they fighting in?

Green has done far more in his career than Gavin Rees, as you yourself said he's been in with at least 4 world champs and beaten two.

If he's not world class what about guys like Urango, Malignaggi, Witter, Collazo, Berto, Andrade, Pascal etc?

Are none of them world class either?

World class does not equal p4p or elite, it just means they compete at the very highest level, championship fights, and can fight and win against top opposition.

Green has proven he can done that, not against the elite level but he's certainly strong enough to compete at a world stage and its frankly ridiculous to argue otherwise.

According to your logic no fighters are world class other than those in the to 20 p4p or so.

If can win world title and fight in 4 world title fights you are by definition world class, he's not fighting at domestic level, and he's not fighting at Commonwealth, or Pan Asian level. He's world class.

Is Scott Lawton domestic class considering there are many domestic fighters better than him? Should he be regional class? What about Thaxton, is he not domestic class anymore?

When you are winning world titles, and fighting at the world level you have to be world class because that's the class of fighter you are fighting in.

I expect Green could creep back into the Ring top 10 at light heavy or cruiserweight when their next ratings come out which again, by definition would be world class.

I just think sometimes you guys like to split hairs.

Bilbo you never seem to agree with anything i say LOL, so thats hardly suprising really. Were like two people from two totally different planets. Im really tired as heck so i don't really feel like going back and forth, in a long debate.

Which will get to nowhere, because you never seem to agree to disagree, but all i'll say quickly. Is that Danny Green has never ever been considered one of the top fighters in any division. Alot of things come into winning a title.

How strong a division is, who they won the title off. Your comment earlier, suggested that anyone who won a title, equals them to be world class. Now your slightly changing it because i brought up Gavin Rees as a example.

And to suggest that because you fight in a world title fight, equals you to being world class is really grasping at straws. To try and make your opinion right, when IMO it isn't.

Because i could bring up so many examples of fighters fighting in world title shots. Which most people would agree on not being world class, i don't think anyone in there right mind would consider Gavis Rees world class.

The fighters you mentioned there, well i would consider Luis Collazo a world class fighter. He gave Andre Berto, Ricky Hatton fits. He beat two very good fighters in Miguel Angel Gonzalez, Jose Antonio Rivera.

Librado Andrade i wouldn't consider world class, infact i would say he is at Danny Green's level.

Juan Urango i wouldn't consider world class either, he got a gift decision to get his belt. He's only had one notable win other than that he's lost handily against the top boys.

Paul Malignaggi is a tough one, he had one good performance against a world class fighter. But against other opponents who are only goodish at best, he looked mediocre. Again i would consider him at Danny Green's level.

Junior Witter ? well he's beaten some good domestic opponents. He had two decent wins over B+ fighters. But he was pretty much beaten handily by two of the best opponents he fought, so no i don't consider him world class, but i never have. I think he's a poor mans version of Herol Graham.

Jean Pascal is hard to tell at the moment, lets wait and see what he does in the future.

Andre Berto ? well he has beaten only one world class opponent, but i do think he has the skills to be world class. And he isn't the best in the division, but thats because he's in a very strong weightclass. Which makes a big difference.

Bilbo to be honest you make my head spin, and it really is confusing answering all of this questions. What the hell is Scott Lawton or Jon Thaxton, got to do with this debate ?

Obviously there are many more mediocre fighters, than there are world class fighters. And obviously it all depends on how strong a division is, and it depends on what the cirumstances are when you win a version of a world title.

I don't see anything in Danny Green thats elite, and i wasn't about P4P either. All im saying is that the Super Middleweight division, has been weak for years.

And hence if you had real good fighters in that weightclass, that stayed in that weightclass. Fighters like Markus Beyer, Eric Lucas, wouldn't have even got a sniff of a world title. And they wouldn't even be considering top fighters.

I think your the one splitting hairs personally, over me calling Danny Green a very solid fighter. Who falls short of world class but my opinion is wrong, and yours is right which is why we never get anywhere.

So i don't really know why im replying now, i can see your argument and i will agree to disagree. He has been competitive against some good opponents, but you could argue that the only real legit world class fighter he has fought, is Anthony Mundine which he lost handily.

Your saying he is world class because he can compete. Against world class fighters, but again i don't see Markus Beyer or Eric Lucas as world class fighters. And i certainly don't think he would stand a chance against Chad Dawson, Bernard Hopkins, or alot of the top Light Heavyweights.

Hence why i don't see him as a world class fighter, and just because you can compete with world class fighters in a losing effort. Doesn't mean your classed as one, normally your classed as falling short of world class. If your honestly gonna tell me that you consider fighters like Eric Lucas world class. Then we are gonna get nowhere in this debate.

Im gonna go rest now, and really and truthfully i went on too much of a rant took me about 20 mins to write that all up. Hopefully you can see where im coming from, and not be so picky over comments i say Bilbo.

[Kev]

Neither do I, I never said he was elite. World class doesn't mean elite, it means that you fight on the world stage.

Surely it's clear even to the most simple of people that I have a different definition of world class than you and Josh, who seem to think world class means elite.

It's just hair splitting and such a pointless debate. I didn't bring it up or argue it, you and Josh did.


If you actually bothered to read my original post you will see that I laid out MY definition of world class very clearly

First off, its a meaningful fight for Roy Jones against a legitimate world class opponent. Green is hard hitting, has a great chin and is a serious test for Jones, but he's not quite at the level of Calzaghe, Pavlik, Dawson, Taylor etc.


So what part of that do you disagree with exactly?


It pisses me off sometimes when I get labelled as argumentative when its not me but you guys who jump on the smallest little detail and try and debate it like I've said something significantly wrong.

Anyway I've finished the thread because frankly you both bore me and I'm off to bed.

You can see above that you actually have the exact same opinion on Danny Green that I do, but because you want to split hairs over the meaning of 'world class' it becomes a big deal to you.

Anyway I is off to bed.

[ICB]

Neither do I, I never said he was elite. World class doesn't mean elite, it means that you fight on the world stage.

Surely it's clear even to the most simple of people that I have a different definition of world class than you and Josh, who seem to think world class means elite.

It's just hair splitting and such a pointless debate. I didn't bring it up or argue it, you and Josh did.


If you actually bothered to read my original post you will see that I laid out MY definition of world class very clearly

First off, its a meaningful fight for Roy Jones against a legitimate world class opponent. Green is hard hitting, has a great chin and is a serious test for Jones, but he's not quite at the level of Calzaghe, Pavlik, Dawson, Taylor etc.


So what part of that do you disagree with exactly?


It pisses me off sometimes when I get labelled as argumentative when its not me but you guys who jump on the smallest little detail and try and debate it like I've said something significantly wrong.

Anyway I've finished the thread because frankly you both bore me and I'm off to bed.

You can see above that you actually have the exact same opinion on Danny Green that I do, but because you want to split hairs over the meaning of 'world class' it becomes a big deal to you.

Anyway I is off to bed.

Well frankly you bore me aswell, you seem to think your so smart. And im so dumb, well i may of not read books or whatever you do. But i understand perfectly well and i've got good logic, and all i was doing was debating with you.

And your constantly argumentive, your not hostile in one way like being aggressive. But you say little comments that piss me off. Like a person of your "intellect" or even the most "simple of people" this is a boxing forum, it doesn't matter what intelligence you have. Aslong as you can type and know your boxing, who really cares ?

Or like you did in the Amir Khan thread. Being rude to me when i said nothing at all to you, bringing up all this chess shit, thinking i cheat because i beat someone in a game 2-1. I've offered CGM to play at Kurnik, where you cannot cheat.

Because your name flashes when you open up another window. Or i've even offered him blitz games but he doesn't want to know, so i couldn't really careless. The reason i didn't say about how much i know about chess, is because otherwise no one would play.

I've already said this countless times, yet you still seem to have this grudge. I lost a game and i won 2 other games, i only won 2-1 i can play chess i know some openings, and i can see moves ahead quite well. But im not that good i don't see the big deal. And you honestly think i would go out of my way, to disagree with you on purpose because we had one disagreement ? do you really think im that petty ?

I don't know what your problem is with me of late, i haven't done anything to you at all. And i've always been friendly with you, but whatever i don't really care. I just come here to talk about boxing, and you either get on with someone or you don't it doesn't bother me either way.

[skel1983]

Green will be make to look stupid, quite similar to the Lacy fight.

[rocky55]

this will be a nice treat to australian boxing fans