How skilled is Wladimir Klitschko really?

[J_Undisputed]

#1 All the stuff you mentioned about Sam Peter is erroneous as it happened AFTER Wladimir beat him. And yes Wladimir coming off of 2 losses DOES mean something as the psychological state he was in wasn't the best, people said at that point in time "if Wlad loses again he should retire" by beating Sam Peter, Wladimir re-staked his claim as the heir apparent and hasn't lost since.

#2 That's all fine and dandy that you think it might be more exciting to watch what ammounts to Toughman competitions, but you said "I struggle to see a huge void left to fill if Klitschko retired" and then you said there were other fighters who were "good enough" to do what Wlad has done....well which is it? Is it going to be Toughman Competitions or is there someone out there who can dominate the division the way Wlad has What you are suggesting ammounts to boxing blasphemy, it's like someone who drinks Aristocrat Vodka dissing Grey Goose, Stolichnaya, or even Absolute. You want to watch fat out of shape untalented heavyweights be my guest, go to the nearest National Guard Armory and watch to you heart's content....I would rather see SKILL and yes Wlad has skill. You say he needs better competition, it's not Wladimir's job to get his opponent in shape....Wlad is a serious fighter and he takes the game as seriously as Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield or any other great champions and that's why he is where he is right now.

#3 Champions fight less...FACT. Tyson used to fight once a month, but as champion he didn't have to, you only fight that often if you're A) Joe Louis and you KO people with such ease it doesn't matter how often you fight or B) you're building a career. Sure Wladimir COULD fight once a month but after a couple months who would be left Wlad is letting guys like Eddie Chambers develop and get ready for a title fight, that needs to happen, guys need to #1 EARN title shots and #2 Be prepared for title shots. Wlad still fights twice a year for the most part, that's decent...he could have fought more this year but the issues with David Haye kept him from doing so. Be realistic man.

#4 Who do you suggest Wladimir fight You have just ignorantly dismissed the entire division, but that's ok it's a common argument used by haters like you. As for waiting for someone to come along and threaten Wlad.....you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled up first


....end rant

Oh so before Wlad beat Sam Peter, Peter was a boxing prodigy with speed, unheralded boxing ability, ring generalship, swift footwork and unmatched conditioning because he never had an ounce of fat on him. The media jumped on the Peter band wagon because he was a big man that punched big and they hyped him. He was still never more thana nigerian later bloated staged David Tua at best. Wlad brought his psychological baggage with him, it wasn't inflicted on him.. unless you believe the water bottle theory.

The toughman scenario easily replaces the entertainment value that Wlad provides as far as a spectacle in the heavyweight division is was what I aluded to. As far as skill wise. Is it really that hard for you to imagine it being plausible that one of these bums actually becoming the best of the worst. Eddie Chambers could probably be that tomorrow because he's the only one who doesn't fight like a damn robot. Look at the lot of them. They're such a vicious crew, intimidating and skillful that it would be impossible for anyone other than the mightly Vlad to pull of a victory. Could Chambers beat them as easy and Wlad? No, probably not. Is it conceivable that he realises the opportunity to run the table for an easy meal ticket if he just shows up every fight (twice a year you said) and tries hard? Yes, very possible. Why else is every damn heavyweight (and a yapping cruiser) this side of brain damage (and some not--Riddick) pondering comebacks or thinking they can get into the heavyweight picture?

So Wlads good enough to fight once a month, but decides not to out of his concern for the heavyweight division and natural order of things. How considerate? I agree Titles shots need to be earned. In fact, I think we should make it mandatory that every heavyweight contender should come up from cruiser and fight 1 heavyweight fight against Monte Barret before they are put up for a title shot against super skilled Wlad.

Who do I suggest he fight? He's so skilled fight them all! Obliterate them all in 3 rounds or less. Make it apparent that he can't be challenged or beaten and feed the fires that he could have done well against some all time greats. I'm not a Wlad hater, i'm just unconvinced of his skills. I was a Lennox hater, but forced to give him his due and grew an appreciation for him. Was he a beast? no not really but he did make himself greater than he was by taking out the green guys early and mixing it up against Holyfield when he had to. He knew when he could brawl, and when to stay away. Wlad fights one way because he can't fight another way (right now)... He walks and picks from the outside or he winds up face down. I give him credit for knowing better than to take stupid risks, but the risks arent coming to him right now... and for me he's going through the motions. The stature of an athlete, without the heart or mind of a fighter.

Alright.. a better way to go about this would be to tell the skills I think hes missing:

- Head Movement - Slip some punches, instead of leaning back /away and tying his oppenents up.

- Better Footwork- Stop pushing your opponents, and step and pivot away.

- Angles- Put those steelhammers to work by creating opportunities to lay into one of these guys.

- Use the ring - corner your opponent and rip into him.

He faster, stronger and in better shape than many of his opponents and should be using all the skills that he's physically capable of to assert some kind of dominance over his opponents. He jabs, holds, shoves and then fires straight ahead combinations or single shots because he hasn't had to use much more than that with his current crop of contenders. Hes physically capable of being a better more skillful fighter, but he hasnt pushed himself. or maybe noone else has pushed him.

[ryanman]

In regards to original post: Mikkel Kessler having no skills? And a basic european fighter? Surprised nobody has gone back at this. Kessler has a highly impressive set of skills. He can move in and out of range almost imperceptively, and is a master of distance and timing. This is not to mention his power, strength, chin, and heart.

[jokaleras]

In regards to original post: Mikkel Kessler having no skills? And a basic european fighter? Surprised nobody has gone back at this. Kessler has a highly impressive set of skills. He can move in and out of range almost imperceptively, and is a master of distance and timing. This is not to mention his power, strength, chin, and heart.

even his fans admit this.

he's a basic fighter. he and wladimir klitschko are called robots for a reason. i don't see how you can't see that. he fights in a division full of basic fighters and he's the least flawed one. The jab and the 1-2 is his bread and butter. he's a fine fighter and i like watching his fights but he's no technician.

[El Kabong]

Alright.. a better way to go about this would be to tell the skills I think hes missing:

- Head Movement - Slip some punches, instead of leaning back /away and tying his oppenents up.

- Better Footwork- Stop pushing your opponents, and step and pivot away.

- Angles- Put those steelhammers to work by creating opportunities to lay into one of these guys.

- Use the ring - corner your opponent and rip into him.
.

Just an FYI Eddie Chambers already lost to Alexander Povetkin so I have my doubts on him running the division and honestly would we be better off Wlad does KO fighters, Eddie does not

#1 Wlad is 6'7 why would he slip punches from Eddie Chambers....how would it be possible given the size disparity between the two....in order for Wladimir to slip punches from someone shorter than himself he'd first have to give up his height and reach and then bend at the waist and knees leaving himself in perfect position to be punched with anything else.

#2 Wlad has good footwork but rarely has to use it...when someone is running away from him Wlad doesn't have to cut the ring off, he can afford to stalk them down at a slower pace as he's a good enough boxer to know to win the round eventually the fighter will have to come to Wlad.

#3 His arsenal of punches does the angle work for him. He uses the jab when his opponent covers up he hooks off the jab, he uses the right cross and when his opponent covers up he swats down their guard and lands the right cross anyway. His punch accuracy is incredible even his detractors have to admit that.

#4 He's had mixed results with that Example A) Ray Mercer, KO'd Ray for the first time ever in Ray's long career example B) Lamon Brewster, Lamon took a savage beating only to survive. When Wlad has a guy in trouble he doesn't HAVE to jump on them but in some cases he will like with Calvin Brock, he hurt Calvin and then swung for the fences.

If Wlad wins fights and that's the name of the game then why should Wladimir change what works for him You wouldn't ask Albert Pujols to hit for average and lay down bunts all the time, so why ask Wlad to do stuff that doesn't suit his game....

"Hey Wlad, you need to punch lighter and with more volume, it'll be much better than you beating the crap out of someone at your leisure, turn into a pressure fighter that'll help you out!"

"Wlad we want you to fight like Willie Pep, we think that is right up your ally and something the kids will really like!"

"hey Wlad, I hear this Emmanuel Augustus guy is a really fun fighter to watch so we're wanting you to copy him, dance while you are fighting, it'll be awesome"

You don't hear people suggest those ideas because it's not Wlad's style and Wlad more than likely wouldn't have as much success with that as he does with his current style which is based on his strength, physical size, and what he's comfortable with psychologically.

I will suggest to all Wlad haters, just don't watch him or have a favorite heavyweight in this current division, you'll only wind up heartbroken when Wlad crushes them

[J_Undisputed]

Vlad doesn't have to fight anyone's style but his own. Then again the "haters" as you group, them don't really have to try to see the virtues that the fans jocking him are trying to push either, do they. It doesn't really matter either way.
It's obvious he's not trying to impress us and as the fans laying down money for fights and the people in charge of the remote, we sure as hell arent seeking his approval. The matinees from Germany can continue and the fans won't beg for the fights to be on prime time. He can hang on to the belt and make his contributions to boxings dwindling popularity till there is someone or something worth watching. Fans that miss heavyweights from bygone eras will just pop in dvd's of their favorites or change the channel to catch rebroadcasts of the UFC where 2 guys will leave it all in the ring. He and boxing the way it exists now, will run out of money/options/fighters long before the fans run out of things to watch.

[ryanman]

In regards to original post: Mikkel Kessler having no skills? And a basic european fighter? Surprised nobody has gone back at this. Kessler has a highly impressive set of skills. He can move in and out of range almost imperceptively, and is a master of distance and timing. This is not to mention his power, strength, chin, and heart.

even his fans admit this.

he's a basic fighter. he and wladimir klitschko are called robots for a reason. i don't see how you can't see that. he fights in a division full of basic fighters and he's the least flawed one. The jab and the 1-2 is his bread and butter. he's a fine fighter and i like watching his fights but he's no technician.

firstly, are you only skillful if you are a 'technician'?
Secondly, I'm not sure his fans would refer to him as a 'robot'. Yes, he does fight in straight lines, but he moves well in these straight lines, in and out of range, in a subtle way. You also say he relys on the 1-2, but surely you can see he posesses a mean uppercut, not just powerful, but delivered with expert timing and speed. Is this not a 'skill'? I'm not saying he is the most skilled fighter ever, but calling him a 'robot', or a 'basic European fighter' is going too far. I think he combines a decent set of 'skill' with good power, chin and heart.

[jokaleras]

Vlad doesn't have to fight anyone's style but his own. Then again the "haters" as you group, them don't really have to try to see the virtues that the fans jocking him are trying to push either, do they. It doesn't really matter either way.
It's obvious he's not trying to impress us and as the fans laying down money for fights and the people in charge of the remote, we sure as hell arent seeking his approval. The matinees from Germany can continue and the fans won't beg for the fights to be on prime time. He can hang on to the belt and make his contributions to boxings dwindling popularity till there is someone or something worth watching. Fans that miss heavyweights from bygone eras will just pop in dvd's of their favorites or change the channel to catch rebroadcasts of the UFC where 2 guys will leave it all in the ring. He and boxing the way it exists now, will run out of money/options/fighters long before the fans run out of things to watch.

gotta admit I felt bad for the huge crowd at the chagaev-klitschko fight. 95% of his punch output is jabs basically.

[jokaleras]

In regards to original post: Mikkel Kessler having no skills? And a basic european fighter? Surprised nobody has gone back at this. Kessler has a highly impressive set of skills. He can move in and out of range almost imperceptively, and is a master of distance and timing. This is not to mention his power, strength, chin, and heart.

even his fans admit this.

he's a basic fighter. he and wladimir klitschko are called robots for a reason. i don't see how you can't see that. he fights in a division full of basic fighters and he's the least flawed one. The jab and the 1-2 is his bread and butter. he's a fine fighter and i like watching his fights but he's no technician.

firstly, are you only skillful if you are a 'technician'?
Secondly, I'm not sure his fans would refer to him as a 'robot'. Yes, he does fight in straight lines, but he moves well in these straight lines, in and out of range, in a subtle way. You also say he relys on the 1-2, but surely you can see he posesses a mean uppercut, not just powerful, but delivered with expert timing and speed. Is this not a 'skill'? I'm not saying he is the most skilled fighter ever, but calling him a 'robot', or a 'basic European fighter' is going too far. I think he combines a decent set of 'skill' with good power, chin and heart.

don't know what you're getting at. i'm not sure why you're even mentioning his chin and heart. Like I said, he's a fine fighter and he's very effective, but he's as basic as an elite boxer can get. his uppercut is delivered with expert timing and speed? hardly. Go watch Vernon Forrest.

[ryanman]

even his fans admit this.

he's a basic fighter. he and wladimir klitschko are called robots for a reason. i don't see how you can't see that. he fights in a division full of basic fighters and he's the least flawed one. The jab and the 1-2 is his bread and butter. he's a fine fighter and i like watching his fights but he's no technician.

firstly, are you only skillful if you are a 'technician'?
Secondly, I'm not sure his fans would refer to him as a 'robot'. Yes, he does fight in straight lines, but he moves well in these straight lines, in and out of range, in a subtle way. You also say he relys on the 1-2, but surely you can see he posesses a mean uppercut, not just powerful, but delivered with expert timing and speed. Is this not a 'skill'? I'm not saying he is the most skilled fighter ever, but calling him a 'robot', or a 'basic European fighter' is going too far. I think he combines a decent set of 'skill' with good power, chin and heart.

don't know what you're getting at. i'm not sure why you're even mentioning his chin and heart. Like I said, he's a fine fighter and he's very effective, but he's as basic as an elite boxer can get. his uppercut is delivered with expert timing and speed? hardly. Go watch Vernon Forrest.

I thought it was quite obvious what i was getting at. I think you are wrong to describe him as a 'robot', and a 'basic European fighter'. Thats it. Done. Thats the point. And i mention his chin and heart in ADDITION to his skills.

[jokaleras]

firstly, are you only skillful if you are a 'technician'?
Secondly, I'm not sure his fans would refer to him as a 'robot'. Yes, he does fight in straight lines, but he moves well in these straight lines, in and out of range, in a subtle way. You also say he relys on the 1-2, but surely you can see he posesses a mean uppercut, not just powerful, but delivered with expert timing and speed. Is this not a 'skill'? I'm not saying he is the most skilled fighter ever, but calling him a 'robot', or a 'basic European fighter' is going too far. I think he combines a decent set of 'skill' with good power, chin and heart.

don't know what you're getting at. i'm not sure why you're even mentioning his chin and heart. Like I said, he's a fine fighter and he's very effective, but he's as basic as an elite boxer can get. his uppercut is delivered with expert timing and speed? hardly. Go watch Vernon Forrest.

I thought it was quite obvious what i was getting at. I think you are wrong to describe him as a 'robot', and a 'basic European fighter'. Thats it. Done. Thats the point. And i mention his chin and heart in ADDITION to his skills.

alright. don't get me wrong, i think Kessler's a top fighter and an impressive athlete. but he is basic. he'd probably do much better with a better trainer.

[Mr140]

Yet again here we go you are trying to compare a lmw with a hw which does not work. If Veron was as big as Wald was i doubt his skill set would be much better you can not compare a Hw with the other divisions. Thats why i think Ali is one of the most skilled fighters to step foot in the ring. The man could do all the things the lower weight guys could do and for a his size thats a hard thing to do so i dont expect every heavy to do it. If you want to see a heavyweight guy that is as big as Wald, fight like a Whitker, Mayweather, Hopkins, Leonard or a jones you are watching the wrong division my friend. Reason why is that you most likly while not get what you are looking for.

[Majesty]

#1 All the stuff you mentioned about Sam Peter is erroneous as it happened AFTER Wladimir beat him. And yes Wladimir coming off of 2 losses DOES mean something as the psychological state he was in wasn't the best, people said at that point in time "if Wlad loses again he should retire" by beating Sam Peter, Wladimir re-staked his claim as the heir apparent and hasn't lost since.

#2 That's all fine and dandy that you think it might be more exciting to watch what ammounts to Toughman competitions, but you said "I struggle to see a huge void left to fill if Klitschko retired" and then you said there were other fighters who were "good enough" to do what Wlad has done....well which is it? Is it going to be Toughman Competitions or is there someone out there who can dominate the division the way Wlad has What you are suggesting ammounts to boxing blasphemy, it's like someone who drinks Aristocrat Vodka dissing Grey Goose, Stolichnaya, or even Absolute. You want to watch fat out of shape untalented heavyweights be my guest, go to the nearest National Guard Armory and watch to you heart's content....I would rather see SKILL and yes Wlad has skill. You say he needs better competition, it's not Wladimir's job to get his opponent in shape....Wlad is a serious fighter and he takes the game as seriously as Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield or any other great champions and that's why he is where he is right now.

#3 Champions fight less...FACT. Tyson used to fight once a month, but as champion he didn't have to, you only fight that often if you're A) Joe Louis and you KO people with such ease it doesn't matter how often you fight or B) you're building a career. Sure Wladimir COULD fight once a month but after a couple months who would be left Wlad is letting guys like Eddie Chambers develop and get ready for a title fight, that needs to happen, guys need to #1 EARN title shots and #2 Be prepared for title shots. Wlad still fights twice a year for the most part, that's decent...he could have fought more this year but the issues with David Haye kept him from doing so. Be realistic man.

#4 Who do you suggest Wladimir fight You have just ignorantly dismissed the entire division, but that's ok it's a common argument used by haters like you. As for waiting for someone to come along and threaten Wlad.....you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled up first


....end rant

Oh so before Wlad beat Sam Peter, Peter was a boxing prodigy with speed, unheralded boxing ability, ring generalship, swift footwork and unmatched conditioning because he never had an ounce of fat on him. The media jumped on the Peter band wagon because he was a big man that punched big and they hyped him. He was still never more thana nigerian later bloated staged David Tua at best. Wlad brought his psychological baggage with him, it wasn't inflicted on him.. unless you believe the water bottle theory.

The toughman scenario easily replaces the entertainment value that Wlad provides as far as a spectacle in the heavyweight division is was what I aluded to. As far as skill wise. Is it really that hard for you to imagine it being plausible that one of these bums actually becoming the best of the worst. Eddie Chambers could probably be that tomorrow because he's the only one who doesn't fight like a damn robot. Look at the lot of them. They're such a vicious crew, intimidating and skillful that it would be impossible for anyone other than the mightly Vlad to pull of a victory. Could Chambers beat them as easy and Wlad? No, probably not. Is it conceivable that he realises the opportunity to run the table for an easy meal ticket if he just shows up every fight (twice a year you said) and tries hard? Yes, very possible. Why else is every damn heavyweight (and a yapping cruiser) this side of brain damage (and some not--Riddick) pondering comebacks or thinking they can get into the heavyweight picture?

So Wlads good enough to fight once a month, but decides not to out of his concern for the heavyweight division and natural order of things. How considerate? I agree Titles shots need to be earned. In fact, I think we should make it mandatory that every heavyweight contender should come up from cruiser and fight 1 heavyweight fight against Monte Barret before they are put up for a title shot against super skilled Wlad.

Who do I suggest he fight? He's so skilled fight them all! Obliterate them all in 3 rounds or less. Make it apparent that he can't be challenged or beaten and feed the fires that he could have done well against some all time greats. I'm not a Wlad hater, i'm just unconvinced of his skills. I was a Lennox hater, but forced to give him his due and grew an appreciation for him. Was he a beast? no not really but he did make himself greater than he was by taking out the green guys early and mixing it up against Holyfield when he had to. He knew when he could brawl, and when to stay away. Wlad fights one way because he can't fight another way (right now)... He walks and picks from the outside or he winds up face down. I give him credit for knowing better than to take stupid risks, but the risks arent coming to him right now... and for me he's going through the motions. The stature of an athlete, without the heart or mind of a fighter.

Alright.. a better way to go about this would be to tell the skills I think hes missing:

- Head Movement - Slip some punches, instead of leaning back /away and tying his oppenents up.

- Better Footwork- Stop pushing your opponents, and step and pivot away.

- Angles- Put those steelhammers to work by creating opportunities to lay into one of these guys.

- Use the ring - corner your opponent and rip into him.

He faster, stronger and in better shape than many of his opponents and should be using all the skills that he's physically capable of to assert some kind of dominance over his opponents. He jabs, holds, shoves and then fires straight ahead combinations or single shots because he hasn't had to use much more than that with his current crop of contenders. Hes physically capable of being a better more skillful fighter, but he hasnt pushed himself. or maybe noone else has pushed him.

Very well put. I've been trying to explain for the longest it wasn't that Wlad wasn't being exciting it's that he wasn't using everything he had to get fighters out of there.

And people say "well if he takes more risks he risks getting knocked out more" when that's not the case at all. If anything the way he fights now keeps his opponents in longer then it should and isnt that more dangerous then using all his tools and knocking them out early when that's obvious he could be knocking these guys out a lot sooner. It makes no sense to use everything you have only after you get hurt.

[Nameless]

Calling Wlad unskilled is like saying James TOney and Sam Peters are only chubby, no matter how the division is, you cannot win so dominantly against everybody without a lot of talent; The guy's style is "boring by our standards but he's a Kronk style of boxer, you set the tone with the jab and you get your big hand next, all being patient. IF he can win without using all the rest, why would he?
If I would be him, I would do all the same probably, accurate, effective with lesser dangers, we might not like it, sure, but indeed, that's extremely effective, I think that it only takes a damn good fighter to win a match almost only using his jab.

[Jimanuel Boogustus]

I have to keep reminding myself that im NOT a Wladmir Klitschko fan but im constantly on to the defence for the big man.

What he does is just as effective as any other Heavyweight champ in history.
Im not talking about attributes or accomplishments, im talking about style and gameplan. In terms or getting the W, he's faultless.

If the discussion is about Skill Sets... Lets put things into perspective...
The guys who had more wished they needed less.

It's as simple as that.

I know that it would be fantastic if he would just do his thing with a bit more flair and aggression but as Lyle says...

you can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which gets filled up first

[DaxxKahn]

even his fans admit this.

he's a basic fighter. he and wladimir klitschko are called robots for a reason. i don't see how you can't see that. he fights in a division full of basic fighters and he's the least flawed one. The jab and the 1-2 is his bread and butter. he's a fine fighter and i like watching his fights but he's no technician.

firstly, are you only skillful if you are a 'technician'?
Secondly, I'm not sure his fans would refer to him as a 'robot'. Yes, he does fight in straight lines, but he moves well in these straight lines, in and out of range, in a subtle way. You also say he relys on the 1-2, but surely you can see he posesses a mean uppercut, not just powerful, but delivered with expert timing and speed. Is this not a 'skill'? I'm not saying he is the most skilled fighter ever, but calling him a 'robot', or a 'basic European fighter' is going too far. I think he combines a decent set of 'skill' with good power, chin and heart.

don't know what you're getting at. i'm not sure why you're even mentioning his chin and heart. Like I said, he's a fine fighter and he's very effective, but he's as basic as an elite boxer can get. his uppercut is delivered with expert timing and speed? hardly. Go watch Vernon Forrest.

.....WTF does Vernon Forrest have to do with this discussion