One More Question

[Rantcatrat]

It'd be hard to judge against Mayweather because I'd expect him to lose to Mayweather either way. If he fought Mayweather and looked like a blown-up powderpuff version of a guy who'd lost to a shot featherweight five years ago it'd confirm to me he was a cheater. But if he was dinging Floyd with hard punches occasionally and had taken random tests I'd be inclined to believe the last five years had been legit. Ideally I'd like to see his next fight to be against JMM at 135 with daily tests so there's no way he could cheat. I'd love to see that.

The thing that gets me about Manny is the Cotto fight. I can accept he's got better as a boxer over the last few years. I can accept that DLH and Hatton were nowhere near their previous standards. But to beat Cotto up like that, to be hurting him nearly every time he landed, for an ex-106 pounder, no fucking way.

I think he won't fight Floyd without his roids because he'd get the shit beaten out of him for twelve rounds. He'd get beaten so badly that nobody would be talking about Manny the all time great and everybody would be talking about Floyd. The only chance he has in that fight is to be able to do a lot of damage when he does land, he needs the power that the PEDs give him. At this stage of his career he's going to make big money from all his fights, he does films etc. back home. He can afford to give up twenty or thirty mill and keep his reputation, losing to Floyd would shatter it.

I'll respond to the highlighted sections in order.

First, it is IMPOSSIBLE to even remotely accurately look at a specific performance (e.g. if Pacquiao fought Mayweather) and say "well, in that one fight he was using roids, but in that one there, he wasn't" without tests or proof from a witness that Pacquiao used steroids.

He didn't hurt Cotto everytime he landed and steroids don't change your punches from average welterweight punches to heavyweight punches. From what I gather, most of the time steroids and the ones Pacquiao has been accused of using are more to help with endurance and recovery. They don't change your fists into bricks.

When was the last time Floyd retired anyone? He doesn't practice that style of boxing. Hatton got a huge pay day after the Floyd fight in the Pacquiao fight. Most of the time Floyd doesn't even look for the knockout - see the Marquez fight. And above and beyond, unlike Floyd, Pacquiao has lost before even been knocked out, why would losing to Floyd be a deal breaker on not taking roids especially when we are talking about upwards of $20M. Also, it's not like Pacquiao has ever been afraid to fight anyone. Why would Floyd scare him when he has fought more aggressive fighters in the past especially when he is making $20M? Like I said, I may be scared to get in the ring with Vlad or Vitali without the help of roids, but for $20M, I'd be leap-frogging the ring to get into it and I didn't grow up dirt poor in the Philipines where my dad ate my dog for dinner.

But, for you, if I interpret you correctly, is that it all boils down to the fact that if Pacquiao tested clean for this fight, you would agree he had never used drugs in the past? See for the reasons above, that doesn't make sense to me.

How does one clean fight vindicate him? And, if it does, why not just take the test and test clean and lose? You'd be $20M richer, considered a steroids-clean boxer, and more famous. Plus, you'd appear valient and fans would give you props for getting in the ring with a bigger man in Floyd even in defeat. Like they do Pavlik with Hopkins and even after losing horribly Pavlik is still getting multi-million dollar fights.

If Manny was taking HGH it cuts all the fat from his body and turns what's left into super lean muscle mass. It's the way to get as much lean muscle mass withinh the weight classification It would explain how he can punch so hard at welter.

FH: How might the desired effects that a boxer may want to achieve manifest itself in a boxer during a fight?

Tygart: Take a real-life example. Look at Shane Mosley and his doping program that was reported by a number outlets when he was involved with BALCO. He used both a designer steroid as well as blood enhancing products like EPO. This is a good anecdote as to how these drugs translate very well for boxers.

What you want with that combination of steroids and blood enhancing product is that you want to be the best pound-for-pound, with that lean muscle mass, and to be the strongest competitor that you can be. Whether that means that you are at 180, 170, 210.

Various forms of steroids and human growth hormone are going to allow you to do that. If you want lean muscle mass and be light, you're going to want a lot of HGH. You're going to cut weight, but that weight is going to be lean muscle mass.

It's not going to be fat. It's going to be the strongest pound-for-pound that you can get inside of your frame at that weight.



You'd agree to fight without roids for $20 million because you don't have $20 million in the bank. Manny does, and because of that money isn't in his equation to the extent it's in yours. It's not like he can't fight only Mayweather or make nothing, he's earning for the Clottey fight, isn't he? Not as much but the difference isn't as important to him as what he might lose against Floyd.

Being a national hero for beating all the other top fighters, his place in boxing history, not being beaten like a gong for twelve rounds and not getting completely humiliated by Floyd, all those things are far more important than a certain sum of money to Manny.

Floys is a far better boxer than Manny. Manny's only chance is to take his roid power into the ring and do damage on the occasions he does land. Take his power away and he 'd be facing twelve rounds of abject humiliation.

If he tested clean I'd still suspect him. It's what he can do in the ring after he tests clean that I'd be judging him on.

What you're saying in the bolded section is that Manny doesn't want to lose and Floyd will humiliate him if they do fight and that is why he wouldn't fight Floyd with Floyd's demands.

Would you have thought Manny would beat Floyd with the help of roids? I didn't. Would his chances of losing have changed that much because he took roids for the fight and specifically the roids that don't show up in random urine tests?

Manny has already lost three times and been knocked out. Why is he afraid to lose now? If he is afraid to lose, why has he chosen Cotto and Clottey as opponents? Why not fighters that he'll definitely beat? I give Clottey a solid chance of beating Manny. He could have fought Foreman or any number of boxers for the same amount of money as Clottey.

Also, losing to Floyd wouldn't be too humiliating because he would be losing to the p4p best fighter in the world. Someone who many people already compare with the atg's. Do you think Hatton feels humiliated because he lost to Floyd? I don't. He stepped up in weight to fight the best and loss. To this day, the love for Hatton remains in Britain and especially Mancester. Manny's fear of not taking losing isn't a credible explanation as to why not stay free of roids for one fight, I don't think.

How he looks in the ring after testing clean once has no bearing on whether he did roids in the past especially against Floyd.

[Kirkland Laing]

I'll respond to the highlighted sections in order.

First, it is IMPOSSIBLE to even remotely accurately look at a specific performance (e.g. if Pacquiao fought Mayweather) and say "well, in that one fight he was using roids, but in that one there, he wasn't" without tests or proof from a witness that Pacquiao used steroids.

He didn't hurt Cotto everytime he landed and steroids don't change your punches from average welterweight punches to heavyweight punches. From what I gather, most of the time steroids and the ones Pacquiao has been accused of using are more to help with endurance and recovery. They don't change your fists into bricks.

When was the last time Floyd retired anyone? He doesn't practice that style of boxing. Hatton got a huge pay day after the Floyd fight in the Pacquiao fight. Most of the time Floyd doesn't even look for the knockout - see the Marquez fight. And above and beyond, unlike Floyd, Pacquiao has lost before even been knocked out, why would losing to Floyd be a deal breaker on not taking roids especially when we are talking about upwards of $20M. Also, it's not like Pacquiao has ever been afraid to fight anyone. Why would Floyd scare him when he has fought more aggressive fighters in the past especially when he is making $20M? Like I said, I may be scared to get in the ring with Vlad or Vitali without the help of roids, but for $20M, I'd be leap-frogging the ring to get into it and I didn't grow up dirt poor in the Philipines where my dad ate my dog for dinner.

But, for you, if I interpret you correctly, is that it all boils down to the fact that if Pacquiao tested clean for this fight, you would agree he had never used drugs in the past? See for the reasons above, that doesn't make sense to me.

How does one clean fight vindicate him? And, if it does, why not just take the test and test clean and lose? You'd be $20M richer, considered a steroids-clean boxer, and more famous. Plus, you'd appear valient and fans would give you props for getting in the ring with a bigger man in Floyd even in defeat. Like they do Pavlik with Hopkins and even after losing horribly Pavlik is still getting multi-million dollar fights.

If Manny was taking HGH it cuts all the fat from his body and turns what's left into super lean muscle mass. It's the way to get as much lean muscle mass withinh the weight classification It would explain how he can punch so hard at welter.

FH: How might the desired effects that a boxer may want to achieve manifest itself in a boxer during a fight?

Tygart: Take a real-life example. Look at Shane Mosley and his doping program that was reported by a number outlets when he was involved with BALCO. He used both a designer steroid as well as blood enhancing products like EPO. This is a good anecdote as to how these drugs translate very well for boxers.

What you want with that combination of steroids and blood enhancing product is that you want to be the best pound-for-pound, with that lean muscle mass, and to be the strongest competitor that you can be. Whether that means that you are at 180, 170, 210.

Various forms of steroids and human growth hormone are going to allow you to do that. If you want lean muscle mass and be light, you're going to want a lot of HGH. You're going to cut weight, but that weight is going to be lean muscle mass.

It's not going to be fat. It's going to be the strongest pound-for-pound that you can get inside of your frame at that weight.



You'd agree to fight without roids for $20 million because you don't have $20 million in the bank. Manny does, and because of that money isn't in his equation to the extent it's in yours. It's not like he can't fight only Mayweather or make nothing, he's earning for the Clottey fight, isn't he? Not as much but the difference isn't as important to him as what he might lose against Floyd.

Being a national hero for beating all the other top fighters, his place in boxing history, not being beaten like a gong for twelve rounds and not getting completely humiliated by Floyd, all those things are far more important than a certain sum of money to Manny.

Floys is a far better boxer than Manny. Manny's only chance is to take his roid power into the ring and do damage on the occasions he does land. Take his power away and he 'd be facing twelve rounds of abject humiliation.

If he tested clean I'd still suspect him. It's what he can do in the ring after he tests clean that I'd be judging him on.

What you're saying in the bolded section is that Manny doesn't want to lose and Floyd will humiliate him if they do fight and that is why he wouldn't fight Floyd with Floyd's demands.

Would you have thought Manny would beat Floyd with the help of roids? I didn't. Would his chances of losing have changed that much because he took roids for the fight and specifically the roids that don't show up in random urine tests?

Manny has already lost three times and been knocked out. Why is he afraid to lose now? If he is afraid to lose, why has he chosen Cotto and Clottey as opponents? Why not fighters that he'll definitely beat? I give Clottey a solid chance of beating Manny. He could have fought Foreman or any number of boxers for the same amount of money as Clottey.

Also, losing to Floyd wouldn't be too humiliating because he would be losing to the p4p best fighter in the world. Someone who many people already compare with the atg's. Do you think Hatton feels humiliated because he lost to Floyd? I don't. He stepped up in weight to fight the best and loss. To this day, the love for Hatton remains in Britain and especially Mancester. Manny's fear of not taking losing isn't a credible explanation as to why not stay free of roids for one fight, I don't think.

How he looks in the ring after testing clean once has no bearing on whether he did roids in the past especially against Floyd.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.