The Definitive PED article

[JazMerkin]

You can't convince someone that desperately, desperately, wants to believe.

I didn't read it, PEDs bore me, but I don't have to be convinced, its obvious that the type of tests Manny wants are those that allow you to get away with using.

Like I said, I'm not really bothered about Manny particularly, it was more the Adamek thread that got me thinking about how widespread it may be in the sport and what unbelievably shoddy testing procedures we have.

Regardless of the initial motivations behind it, it would be fantastic if the Mayweather-Mosley fight became a catalyst for boxing cleaning itself in this regard. There will always be bad scorecards and poor refereeing decisions, but it would be great if we could at least be confident that the sport's top fighters are clean.

[killersheep]

Great article and great points Jaz. I'll give a more insightful response when I'm back on my computer. The main crux of the difficulty of cleaning up the sport is those that directly profit and stand to lose their livelihood from stricter testing.

[Gandalf]

Good read. Away from the blame game, there can be no doubt that testing for PED's in boxing needs to be stepped up. Unlike other sports, boxing is a serious one where fists become weapons. It's dangerous, and for that reason alone we should not be allowing drugs cheats to slip through the net.

[Nameless]

The thing is: the rules about anti-doping probably date from an era where urine was way enough to detect most stuff of the era. Things changed well since then and bio-technology are upgrading lightspeed. TO keep with such improvement of techniques and produces, it would be just normal that the commission updates itself once in a while otherwise it ends up like now: obsolete rules for brand new techniques.

[JazMerkin]

Like the article & some of you guys have said, it really doesn't seem that boxing wants to clean itself up. Using Shane Mosley as an example we can see the problem. He was one of the biggest stars in the sport at the start of the 2000's, would those in Nevada or Califiornia really want to lose the income that his fights in their states brought in?

It also makes you look at boxers and wonder who is actually clean. It would be great if more of the top fighters started voluntarily bringing in the USADA style testing. The fact Mayweather is doing it, leaves me very confident that he at least isn't and hasn't been on anything. I still think that the majority probably aren't, but with the situation now, it's hard to be fully confident in saying someone definitely isn't.

[Bomp]

Like the article & some of you guys have said, it really doesn't seem that boxing wants to clean itself up. Using Shane Mosley as an example we can see the problem. He was one of the biggest stars in the sport at the start of the 2000's, would those in Nevada or Califiornia really want to lose the income that his fights in their states brought in?

It also makes you look at boxers and wonder who is actually clean. It would be great if more of the top fighters started voluntarily bringing in the USADA style testing. The fact Mayweather is doing it, leaves me very confident that he at least isn't and hasn't been on anything. I still think that the majority probably aren't, but with the situation now, it's hard to be fully confident in saying someone definitely isn't.

That's the main point in any discussion, likely due to opportunity and desire to do better that your talking about the majority. No reason to expect athletes who put on the gloves to be any more 'moral' than any other sport, and even with test intensive sport like athletics and cycling many are still being caught, and the sad fact is that the drug providers will always be a step ahead of the testers. The only 'fool proof' answer where no one is ever a suspect is to legalise it.

[JonnyFolds]

You can't convince someone that desperately, desperately, wants to believe.

I didn't read it, PEDs bore me, but I don't have to be convinced, its obvious that the type of tests Manny wants are those that allow you to get away with using.

Like I said, I'm not really bothered about Manny particularly, it was more the Adamek thread that got me thinking about how widespread it may be in the sport and what unbelievably shoddy testing procedures we have.

Regardless of the initial motivations behind it, it would be fantastic if the Mayweather-Mosley fight became a catalyst for boxing cleaning itself in this regard. There will always be bad scorecards and poor refereeing decisions, but it would be great if we could at least be confident that the sport's top fighters are clean.

The first response to your article responded exactly with what we we NOT trying to talk about here which is the Mayweather-Pacquiao breakdown. But, I guess this topic would have never come up without that instance. Thanks for the great read, Jaz. Good to know what is happening in sports these days.

I guess the other thing is, most fighters aren't banned, or forgotten after having something like this happen. Is there any question that Mosley will not get in the HOF? Baseball is completely writing off these guys. Canseco, McGuir, ARod, will NEVER get in their HOF.

[killersheep]

You can't convince someone that desperately, desperately, wants to believe.

I didn't read it, PEDs bore me, but I don't have to be convinced, its obvious that the type of tests Manny wants are those that allow you to get away with using.

Like I said, I'm not really bothered about Manny particularly, it was more the Adamek thread that got me thinking about how widespread it may be in the sport and what unbelievably shoddy testing procedures we have.

Regardless of the initial motivations behind it, it would be fantastic if the Mayweather-Mosley fight became a catalyst for boxing cleaning itself in this regard. There will always be bad scorecards and poor refereeing decisions, but it would be great if we could at least be confident that the sport's top fighters are clean.

The first response to your article responded exactly with what we we NOT trying to talk about here which is the Mayweather-Pacquiao breakdown. But, I guess this topic would have never come up without that instance. Thanks for the great read, Jaz. Good to know what is happening in sports these days.

I guess the other thing is, most fighters aren't banned, or forgotten after having something like this happen. Is there any question that Mosley will not get in the HOF? Baseball is completely writing off these guys. Canseco, McGuir, ARod, will NEVER get in their HOF.

Yeah there needs to be major reform to get all this together. Baseball has two organization that form a completely different equation than boxing.

1. Major League Baseball, they set uniform rules that cover all players (even though there are slightly different rules for the AL and NL)

2. Players Union, they represent the players demands.

These two organizations negotiate everything as two larger entities.

In boxing everything is individual, so there is not a set protocol for the rules, even what is and isn't illegal. I think a more standardizing organization is necessary for any meaningful reform to take place.

If an organization has rules it should be prepared to enforce them, this is just not the case as it stands now.

[Althugz]

While that is a great and comprehensive article, it is not only the sport of boxing that seemingly doesn't want to know what their athletes are on, but also the fans of certain fighters - They'd rather turn a blind eye to it and be in ignorant bliss.

Thanks for the effort Jaz, I just fear it is in vain for the blind who do not want to open their eyes to how rampant PED's are in the sport.

[fan johnny]

How many athletes have tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in the Olympics? - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

"Of the 21,579 drug tests conducted at the Summer Olympics from 1968-2008, there were 59 cases (0.27%) of doping violations. There have been 13 positive results (0.25%) from 5,264 tests conducted at the Winter Olympics between 1968 and 2006."

WADA and USADA use the blood tests that look for HGH have never caught a single athlete, while there also exist a urine test in production to trap the HGH. Both organizations have supported and put funds into the development of the test but have yet to use it.

Human Growth Hormone - World Anti-Doping Agency

If drug use is so widespread in sports as those that say anti-doping policies needs to be revised, do you really think the Olympic style testing from WADA and USADA is an appropriate model for any professional sports organization to follow when they have such a failed history? While there may be widespread use, why should boxing take advise from a drug expert with no background in sports or sport medicine? The appropriate experts are the nutritionist, trainers and conditioning coaches.

Rules are made for people that follow the rules. Those that don't, don't care what rules you use because they are not bound by them. If Anti-doping policies are going to make a difference in sports culture, then there has to be fundamental changes in the ethics of all sports, armature through professional. That is impossible.

Even if the rules are changed for more stringent testing procedures to catch users, it won't change the culture, It will only affect it's appearance.

The commission could be more positive in it's stance by promoting boxings biggest stars and taking the lead to show both fighters are 100% clean. By removing any doubts and speculation. The work ethic of both Mayweather and Pacquiao are perfect examples to young athletes of what can be achieved through hard work and determination.

[killersheep]

How many athletes have tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in the Olympics? - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

"Of the 21,579 drug tests conducted at the Summer Olympics from 1968-2008, there were 59 cases (0.27%) of doping violations. There have been 13 positive results (0.25%) from 5,264 tests conducted at the Winter Olympics between 1968 and 2006."

WADA and USADA use the blood tests that look for HGH have never caught a single athlete, while there also exist a urine test in production to trap the HGH. Both organizations have supported and put funds into the development of the test but have yet to use it.

Human Growth Hormone - World Anti-Doping Agency

If drug use is so widespread in sports as those that say anti-doping policies needs to be revised, do you really think the Olympic style testing from WADA and USADA is an appropriate model for any professional sports organization to follow when they have such a failed history? While there may be widespread use, why should boxing take advise from a drug expert with no background in sports or sport medicine? The appropriate experts are the nutritionist, trainers and conditioning coaches.

Rules are made for people that follow the rules. Those that don't, don't care what rules you use because they are not bound by them. If Anti-doping policies are going to make a difference in sports culture, then there has to be fundamental changes in the ethics of all sports, armature through professional. That is impossible.

Even if the rules are changed for more stringent testing procedures to catch users, it won't change the culture, It will only affect it's appearance.

The commission could be more positive in it's stance by promoting boxings biggest stars and taking the lead to show both fighters are 100% clean. By removing any doubts and speculation. The work ethic of both Mayweather and Pacquiao are perfect examples to young athletes of what can be achieved through hard work and determination.

Surely you can't be saying this is worse than the current system. No system is perfect, but why don't you provide the same statistics for boxing so we can see where it stands? One point of reference can't show direction or comparison which is what you are making here. You are either saying

A. The current system is more likely to catch athletes (i.e. be more useful to enforcing the rules)

or

B. The culture of the athletes will change by itself by maintaining the status quo.

Either way unless you can prove that the current system in boxing would do either A or B, then what you are saying makes a good case for further testing.

Would Olympic style testing be 100%? No, but don't you think enforcing random tests would change the culture you talked about? Also, what good are rules if you don't enforce them?

[JazMerkin]

How many athletes have tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in the Olympics? - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

"Of the 21,579 drug tests conducted at the Summer Olympics from 1968-2008, there were 59 cases (0.27%) of doping violations. There have been 13 positive results (0.25%) from 5,264 tests conducted at the Winter Olympics between 1968 and 2006."

WADA and USADA use the blood tests that look for HGH have never caught a single athlete, while there also exist a urine test in production to trap the HGH. Both organizations have supported and put funds into the development of the test but have yet to use it.

Human Growth Hormone - World Anti-Doping Agency

If drug use is so widespread in sports as those that say anti-doping policies needs to be revised, do you really think the Olympic style testing from WADA and USADA is an appropriate model for any professional sports organization to follow when they have such a failed history? While there may be widespread use, why should boxing take advise from a drug expert with no background in sports or sport medicine? The appropriate experts are the nutritionist, trainers and conditioning coaches.

Rules are made for people that follow the rules. Those that don't, don't care what rules you use because they are not bound by them. If Anti-doping policies are going to make a difference in sports culture, then there has to be fundamental changes in the ethics of all sports, armature through professional. That is impossible.

Even if the rules are changed for more stringent testing procedures to catch users, it won't change the culture, It will only affect it's appearance.

The commission could be more positive in it's stance by promoting boxings biggest stars and taking the lead to show both fighters are 100% clean. By removing any doubts and speculation. The work ethic of both Mayweather and Pacquiao are perfect examples to young athletes of what can be achieved through hard work and determination.

Surely you can't be saying this is worse than the current system. No system is perfect, but why don't you provide the same statistics for boxing so we can see where it stands? One point of reference can't show direction or comparison which is what you are making here. You are either saying

A. The current system is more likely to catch athletes (i.e. be more useful to enforcing the rules)

or

B. The culture of the athletes will change by itself by maintaining the status quo.

Either way unless you can prove that the current system in boxing would do either A or B, then what you are saying makes a good case for further testing.

Would Olympic style testing be 100%? No, but don't you think enforcing random tests would change the culture you talked about? Also, what good are rules if you don't enforce them?

Exactly. Like I said, let's forget about Mayweather & Pacquiao, because some people seem to only have an interest in finding whatever they can to either defend or defame one fighter. This is bigger than either of those two.

It's clear that at least one major boxing star, Shane Mosley, has gotten away with cheating in this decade & yet his admission has not provoked the boxing authorities into harsher guidelines. Why?

The USADA system is not perfect, but it is better & boxing should always be striving to be better. This is not about if someone will or won't take blood testing. If the anti-doping authorities have not implemented urine tests for HGH, that probably means there is something wrong with it at the moment. Also having not 'caught' anyone might be seen as a good thing.

As for the emboldened part, no they are not the people to take advice from. Recent history has usually shown that it is they as much as the boxers under them who resort to these methods. Victor Conte, the man who spent years fooling authorities, has said that the WADA procedure is the best available method to catch drug cheats. The man responsible for tricking all modern anti-doping organizations is the guy who has the most valid opinion.

This shit needs to change in boxing & people can't look the other way regardless of who it may implicate.

[fan johnny]

How many athletes have tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in the Olympics? - Sports and Drugs - ProCon.org

"Of the 21,579 drug tests conducted at the Summer Olympics from 1968-2008, there were 59 cases (0.27%) of doping violations. There have been 13 positive results (0.25%) from 5,264 tests conducted at the Winter Olympics between 1968 and 2006."

WADA and USADA use the blood tests that look for HGH have never caught a single athlete, while there also exist a urine test in production to trap the HGH. Both organizations have supported and put funds into the development of the test but have yet to use it.

Human Growth Hormone - World Anti-Doping Agency

If drug use is so widespread in sports as those that say anti-doping policies needs to be revised, do you really think the Olympic style testing from WADA and USADA is an appropriate model for any professional sports organization to follow when they have such a failed history? While there may be widespread use, why should boxing take advise from a drug expert with no background in sports or sport medicine? The appropriate experts are the nutritionist, trainers and conditioning coaches.

Rules are made for people that follow the rules. Those that don't, don't care what rules you use because they are not bound by them. If Anti-doping policies are going to make a difference in sports culture, then there has to be fundamental changes in the ethics of all sports, armature through professional. That is impossible.

Even if the rules are changed for more stringent testing procedures to catch users, it won't change the culture, It will only affect it's appearance.

The commission could be more positive in it's stance by promoting boxings biggest stars and taking the lead to show both fighters are 100% clean. By removing any doubts and speculation. The work ethic of both Mayweather and Pacquiao are perfect examples to young athletes of what can be achieved through hard work and determination.

Surely you can't be saying this is worse than the current system. No system is perfect, but why don't you provide the same statistics for boxing so we can see where it stands? One point of reference can't show direction or comparison which is what you are making here. You are either saying

A. The current system is more likely to catch athletes (i.e. be more useful to enforcing the rules)

or

B. The culture of the athletes will change by itself by maintaining the status quo.

Either way unless you can prove that the current system in boxing would do either A or B, then what you are saying makes a good case for further testing.

Would Olympic style testing be 100%? No, but don't you think enforcing random tests would change the culture you talked about? Also, what good are rules if you don't enforce them?

Excellent questions.

"Boxing" doesn't keep records on anti-dope testing and the results. Even if someone/group did a study there would be no way to verify the numbers. I would expect that they'd be similar to that of the WADA and USADA, since the procedures are similar.

Actually, I am saying the Olympic system is not appropriate for boxing. The high profile nature of Pacquiao/Mayweather has brought recon ignition to a problem that doesn't need more bureaucracy. Who do you think is going to pay for those tests the majority of fighters don't need? Many boxers come from underprivileged beginnings. Boxing could end up with a process based on a knee jerk reactions induced by public clamoring that could deprive us from future hall of famers.

15 years ago or so a major syndicated news organization brought to the public light that there was a major problem with in the sex trade business selling underage children through inter-country adoptions. As a result, people had a knee jerk reaction prompting governments to implement new rules. Today inter-country adoption has dropped from the 1000's to the 100's and less because of the bureaucracy involved. Costs to adopt have increased x3 to x20 for families wanting/needing to adopt between countries. All of these safeguards haven't stopped the sale of underage children to the sex trade business and it prevents those 1000's of children from having a homes with a families they would have had.

Will adding breathalyzers to starters in cars stop drunk drivers from driving drunk? Will adding check points near bars catch more drunk drivers? Sure it will catch some, but not the majority and it won't change our culture.

Olympic style testing is specifically designed for screening 1000’s of athletes in multiple sports. Boxing is a specific sport.

People talk about random testing as being the magic technique for catching cheaters. Well I hate to dim the lights here but it’s more like a shot in the dark or like looking for a needle in a haystack. Random has its applications, which is mostly employed as a deterrent to introduce the unknown to the user. If you are looking for a needle in a haystack wouldn’t you use rather a system that runs the hay over a magnet rather than grabbing a handful of hay each time you search?

If PED’s are used, they have a specific target and are applied in a specific manner to achieve desired results. Samples of blood and urine are gathered for specific tests that check for banned substances. Science and the application of technologies are exacting. Testing should be precise in its application.

Yes, Anti-doping policies could do with a modernization boost, but it needs an appropriate implementation, not one which is based on public opinion that pressures rule makers to pacify their demand. The consequences of such brash actions can take many years to correct and waste many more boxing careers.

[Kirkland Laing]

The work ethic of both Mayweather and Pacquiao are perfect examples to young athletes of what can be achieved through hard work and determination.

Yes, they're both in the gym 365 days a year. Apart from when they're both making films, making records, or campaigning for political office. Oh wait!

[JazMerkin]

Just read this, it's an interview with David Howman, the head of WADA, who is very critical of boxing's drug-testing procedures.

INTERVIEW - Lack of drug testing a concern, says WADA | Sports | Reuters

Key quotes from Howman

"There are countless numbers of bodies that profess to be running boxing and holding boxing fights, none of them fall under any umbrella body that has made any attempt to be a part of WADA"

"It is obvious they (organising bodies) are not making any attempt to clean up their sport and that leaves us with, not only a lot of concern, but a pretty nasty taste in the mouth"

"There have been sufficient incidents in the world of professional boxing to show there has been doping in the past and you would have to be pretty stupid to think it wouldn't be continuing so why are they not doing anything about it?"

"I would anticipate at some stage common sense will prevail. Generally speaking it will be the clean athlete that wants to show he is fighting clean and if the others are not, then why not?"

Anyway, I didn't think it was worth creating a new thread about, but I thought I'd raise it as another example of an external anti-doping authority criticizing boxing's testing procedures. Hopefully all this pressure will force some kind of change.