Now some time has passed.. Your final vote on Pac's refusal...

**erics44** · 11-02-2010 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dizaster

go to weightgaintips.com to see what is possible in regards to lean muscle with the appropriate workout and diet.... And that of course doesn't represent everyone, but if someone is in the gym for a year and seriously only puts on a good 5 pounds of muscle mass in a year, then they are doing something seriously fucking wrong... Overtraining, shit diet, shit workout (high reps/low weight)... So to say it's only realistic to put on 5 pounds of muscle mass a year is just silly...

putting on 5lbs of "lean" muscle in a year for someone over (for arguments sake lets say) 26 would be a very good achievement

by doing a bulk (adding fat too) it is very posible

if you are over 26, I challenge you to try and put on 2lbs of "lean" muscle in a year, that is without adding any fat, i bet you struggle

but dudes, you lot have obviously studied this more than me so you clearly know what you are talking about

just an aditional point, did ariza's journal thingy posted above come out after manny had refused the drugs test?

let me just point out at this point, i have never said manny has or hasnt put on any muscle, as ive said a few times in this thread my original point was to onos suggestion that it is easy to put on lean muscle at that rate

**ono** · 11-02-2010 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.

Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

you need to keep callories to put on muscle dude

im telling you, what you are explaining a person wouldnt put on any muscle at all

they would be extremely fit, but they wouldnt gain muscle

if you are eating 7000 callories and burning 6500 with this training routine you would struggle to maintain your weight

if this was posible then every bodybuilder in the world would be doing it

This once again makes no sense whatsoever. If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day) and he's consuming over 7,000 he will carry over at least 500 calories. Combined with muscle building exercises this will provide a platform for him to add lean muscle mass. I really don't know how to make it any clearer. I know plenty of athletes who aim to put on muscle by consuming around 500 calories more than they burn off per day.

I don't understand your brain.

**erics44** · 11-02-2010 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by ono

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.

Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

you need to keep callories to put on muscle dude

im telling you, what you are explaining a person wouldnt put on any muscle at all

they would be extremely fit, but they wouldnt gain muscle

if you are eating 7000 callories and burning 6500 with this training routine you would struggle to maintain your weight

if this was posible then every bodybuilder in the world would be doing it

This once again makes no sense whatsoever. If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day) and he's consuming over 7,000 he will carry over at least 500 calories. Combined with muscle building exercises this will provide a platform for him to add lean muscle mass. I really don't know how to make it any clearer. I know plenty of athletes who aim to put on muscle by consuming around 500 calories more than they burn off per day.

I don't understand your brain.

dude im telling you, ive been in the muscle building game for a long time and its very far fetched

high in the sky

what you are saying makes sense in a fantasy world

natural bodybuilders train for building muscle and nothing else

if a professional natural bodybuilder at pacs age put on 8lbs of muscle in 6 months, with any amount of fat it would be a good achievement

to put on 8lbs of muscle in 6 months lean is astonishing, not human and not believable, even on gear it would be a fantastic ahievement

if you are doing all the fitness training as well it would be counter productive which makes it even more unbelievable

im not saying that is what pac has done, are you?

if you really want to learn about building muscle, join uk-muscle and have these discussion with professional muscle builders, as i said before you will get an unanimous opinion

**ono** · 11-02-2010 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.

Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

you need to keep callories to put on muscle dude

im telling you, what you are explaining a person wouldnt put on any muscle at all

they would be extremely fit, but they wouldnt gain muscle

if you are eating 7000 callories and burning 6500 with this training routine you would struggle to maintain your weight

if this was posible then every bodybuilder in the world would be doing it

This once again makes no sense whatsoever. If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day) and he's consuming over 7,000 he will carry over at least 500 calories. Combined with muscle building exercises this will provide a platform for him to add lean muscle mass. I really don't know how to make it any clearer. I know plenty of athletes who aim to put on muscle by consuming around 500 calories more than they burn off per day.

I don't understand your brain.

dude im telling you, ive been in the muscle building game for a long time and its very far fetched

high in the sky

what you are saying makes sense in a fantasy world

natural bodybuilders train for building muscle and nothing else

if a professional natural bodybuilder at pacs age put on 8lbs of muscle in 6 months, with any amount of fat it would be a good achievement

to put on 8lbs of muscle in 6 months lean is astonishing, not human and not believable, even on gear it would be a fantastic ahievement

if you are doing all the fitness training as well it would be counter productive which makes it even more unbelievable

im not saying that is what pac has done, are you?

if you really want to learn about building muscle, join uk-muscle and have these discussion with professional muscle builders, as i said before you will get an unanimous opinion

You're not reading properly. Nobody has said he has put on a lean 8lbs in 6 months. I am saying that this is the amount he has put on since 2006. That is 4 years. I'll say it again. Now read this part very, very carefully...

Manny Pacquaio weighed 144lbs when he fought Erik Morales in 2006. He weighed 149lbs when he fought Josua Clottey in 2010. He will probably weigh 150-152 when he fights Antonio Margarito. Is that clear mate?

I don't need to join muscletalk. I studied Sports Nutrition for 2 years.

Oh and the correct phrase is 'Pie in the sky', not 'High in the sky'

**erics44** · 11-02-2010 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by ono

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

Originally Posted by erics44

Originally Posted by ono

8000 calories a day for an athlete who is training for 3-5 hours per day isn't far fetched. You're gaining a lot of fat because you don't have anywhere the same activity level as Pacquiao has. You clearly don't have the activity level to support your current energy intake.

The bit where you said people over 23 don't build lean muscle isn't true. It's not true in any way shape or form. I don't understand the bit about bodybuilders taking steroids, but bulking like 'natty's. Do you mean, even steroid using bodybuilders have to increase calories intake just like a regular natural bodybuilder? If so, of course they do. That's because there is a science to putting on lean muscle. You seem to hinting at the notion that bodybuilders rely on steroids because they have exhausted all other avenues. In my experience, this is far from true.

It seems like you are arguing over a redundant point which has been peddled by some idiot who's trying to justify his own steroid cycle, over on a bodybuilding site.

i didnt say over 23s dont put on lean muscle, i said it becomes very difficult, very quickly as you get over that age, obviously it depends on the person, some sooner others later

say at 26, 27, 28 or 29 to put on anymore than 5lbs of lean muscle a year would be very difficult and there is no way you would put lean muscle on eating 8000 calories a day when you are 10 stone

i never said bodybuilders rely on steriods (please point out where i did if i did) i said both steriod users and nattys use the same methods, eat over 2500 calories a day and put on fat as well as muscle

dude eating 8000 calories is unrealistic for anyone, especially someone of 10 stone, do you know how much food that is? the only way i can think of doing it would be on a liquid diet, and it would be pointless anyway, eating all that and training so much, they would kind of offset each other

www.uk-muscle.co.uk is full of competing bodybuilders, some who bodybuild for a living and most who make it their sole purpose in life, start a thread called - could you put on lean muscle eating 8000 calories a day at 10 stone - and see what the response is, argue it is manny pac you are talking about, and see if you get any further

You said over 23's don't generally put on lean muscle.

"The second part of Ariza’s training module involves extremely high caloric intake. He has Pacquiao consuming over 7000 calories of food per day, alternating between high protein solid foods and then liquid protein shakes. Pacquiao is forced to eat at least every two hours, whether he’s hungry or not. Contrary to the myth that Pacquiao enjoys fighting at higher weights because he can eat all he wants, Ariza says the constant consumption of food actually gets to the fighter, even if he’s eating his favorite Filipino dishes."

This is taken from an interview with Pacquiao's nutritionist and the full article is on this site

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...gime-diet.html

He doesn't give an exact figure but he mentions that it is above 7,000 cals, so for arguments sake let's settle on 7,000.

He has to eat that much because if he went much lower, he wouldn't eat enough to meet his energy requirements. His energy requirements are so high because he undertakes a very vigorous training camp.

You keep mentioning that he can't possibly put on lean muscle when his calories are so high and when he's naturally so small. I'll try and explain it differently to you mate...

If he's consuming 7,000 calories per day day, but burning off 6,500 that's an aggregate of 500 calories. Now that is the same as you consuming 2,500 and burning off 2,000. The only difference is, Manny's activity level is much much higher than yours, so he needs to up his calorie intake to compensate for it. If he didn't, he wouldn't be able to maintain his existing weight, let alone put on weight.

Are you with me so far?

Quick recap....he has to consume more calories than he is burning off. So that's why it's above 7,000. From that information you can gather he is burning around 6,000 - 6,500 calories per day through training camp.

Edit: As for his weight gain, i posted pictures of 'tale of the tapes' from his fight with Morales right up until his fight with Clottey. His weight come fight night only showed a 5lb differential. Inn other words, even at Super-Featherweight against Morales in 06, Manny weighed 144lbs on the night of the fight. Against Clottey in 2010 he weighed 149lbs. People tend to ignore this when pointing out he has moved up several divisions, but it's unfair to do so. His fight night weight is his more natural weight. His weigh-in weight will vary depending on the level of dehydration and muscle glycogen depletion. So in real terms, he's actually only 5lb heavier than he was 4 years ago.

you need to keep callories to put on muscle dude

im telling you, what you are explaining a person wouldnt put on any muscle at all

they would be extremely fit, but they wouldnt gain muscle

if you are eating 7000 callories and burning 6500 with this training routine you would struggle to maintain your weight

if this was posible then every bodybuilder in the world would be doing it

This once again makes no sense whatsoever. If he's burning 6,500 calories per day (i never once said his training routine was responsible for burning 6,500 cals - i estimated that that's the amount of calories he is burning off per day) and he's consuming over 7,000 he will carry over at least 500 calories. Combined with muscle building exercises this will provide a platform for him to add lean muscle mass. I really don't know how to make it any clearer. I know plenty of athletes who aim to put on muscle by consuming around 500 calories more than they burn off per day.

I don't understand your brain.

dude im telling you, ive been in the muscle building game for a long time and its very far fetched

high in the sky

what you are saying makes sense in a fantasy world

natural bodybuilders train for building muscle and nothing else

if a professional natural bodybuilder at pacs age put on 8lbs of muscle in 6 months, with any amount of fat it would be a good achievement

to put on 8lbs of muscle in 6 months lean is astonishing, not human and not believable, even on gear it would be a fantastic ahievement

if you are doing all the fitness training as well it would be counter productive which makes it even more unbelievable

im not saying that is what pac has done, are you?

if you really want to learn about building muscle, join uk-muscle and have these discussion with professional muscle builders, as i said before you will get an unanimous opinion

You're not reading properly. Nobody has said he has put on a lean 8lbs in 6 months. I am saying that this is the amount he has put on since 2006. That is 4 years. I'll say it again. Now read this part very, very carefully...

Manny Pacquaio weighed 144lbs when he fought Erik Morales in 2006. He weighed 149lbs when he fought Josua Clottey in 2010. He will probably weigh 150-152 when he fights Antonio Margarito. Is that clear mate?

I don't need to join muscletalk. I studied Sports Nutrition for 2 years.

Oh and the correct phrase is 'Pie in the sky', not 'High in the sky'

dude chill, we are having a chilled conversation here

well dude if thats all you are saying we arent disagreeing

5lbs in 4 years is very achieveable

and like you said, especially for a professional sportsman, 5lbs in 4 years should be easy

if we were talking 8lbs in 6 months everyone would be walking round like rocky

and its high in the sky where i come from, pie in the sky is from the 60s, when the recreational drugs revolution happened in the 90s and everyone was off it, it changed

sure you got your figures right?

**KananKrus** · 11-02-2010 12:45 PM

This is a very enlightening exchange of ideas. Kudos to the harbinger and the lively participants to this thread. While I stay on the side, a sponge to the interchanges, it is to be commended, the level of energy on the effort of all parties to enlighten. Thanks!

A request to Mr. eric44, if you may... please add an emoticon at the end of each and every argument that you have...it allows for an easier understanding on the merits that you attempt to bring out each and every time you post! Thank you.

**erics44** · 11-02-2010 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by KananKrus

This is a very enlightening exchange of ideas. Kudos to the harbinger and the lively participants to this thread. While I stay on the side, a sponge to the interchanges, it is to be commended, the level of energy on the effort of all parties to enlighten. Thanks!

A request to Mr. eric44, if you may... please add an emoticon at the end of each and every argument that you have...it allows for an easier understanding on the merits that you attempt to bring out each and every time you post! Thank you.

do you meen like this

dude you dont know what you are talking about

i know more about muscles than you

when erect, my penis is bigger than yours

**ono** · 11-02-2010 01:15 PM