De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st

[Kev]

After 10 pages the fact remains the same.


If a couple of pounds under the weight limit makes no difference to a fighters performance on the night, why would pacroid, and his team of gay homo erotic cheating drug dealers, insist on the catch weight or lower weightclass?
,
If it made no difference Pacroid would have fought DLH at 154, Cotto at 147, Margarito at 154.

Who has said it made no difference? We are saying that being weight drained was not a factor.

There are many people on here arguing that if Marquez is to fight Manny the fight shouldn't be above 140 because Marquez doesn't carry the weight as well as Manny, and that it is fairer to fight at junior welter than welter as Marquez is not a welterweight.

The argument isn't that Manny will be weight drained at 140, he could make the weight no problem. It's just that he is suited to a lower weight class.

Well it's the same for Manny. Manny is not nearly as big as Antonio Margarito, and is considerably smaller than Miguel Cotto also. He's NOT a junior middleweight. He entered the ring against Margarito weighing 148lbs, compared to Margarito's 165.

If it wasn't a catchweight Margarito would have likely entered the ring at 170. That would be a 22lb weight advantage. That's a big difference!

How can you not see this? When two guys are different sizes they have find somewhere to meet, a weight to fight at. Against Cotto it was agreed 145, against Margarito it was agreed 150. You could make exactly the same argument for fighting Cotto at full welter, why not at 154? And why not fight Margarito at 160?

The higher they go the more it favours the bigger man because Manny isn't gaining weight. He's being massively outweighed.

I've said it many times but I will reiterate it. Your posts are ridiculous.

i don't really care that a joke like you thinks my posts are rediculous. I wouldn't even regard you as a boxing fan because from what I've read you have no clue what your talking about and the fact this post i'm replying to is you running around chasing your tale shows that.

Now I'm going to rip your moronic post apart.....

Who has said it made no difference? We are saying that being weight drained was not a factor.

Right there is a huge contradiction. Weight is a factor and does make a difference but weight drainage wasn't a factor. And my posts are rediculous? Yours are just all out dumb.

You're now saying dropping down the weight does make a difference and so pac is trying to weaken his opponants before getting in the ring. I thought you disagreed with me mr dildo? It seems you don't know which side of the arguement you're on

There are many people on here arguing that if Marquez is to fight Manny the fight shouldn't be above 140 because Marquez doesn't carry the weight as well as Manny, and that it is fairer to fight at junior welter than welter as Marquez is not a welterweight.

Again this is something that I have been saying. Manny has never made 147 on the scales at a weigh in, neither has marquez so why fight at 147? Again I thought you were arguing with my rediculous post? you're agreeing with them.

The argument isn't that Manny will be weight drained at 140, he could make the weight no problem. It's just that he is suited to a lower weight class.

The thread title, must I remind you is 'De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st'

No one is saying Manny Pacquiao will be drained at 140. the thread is if Manny Pacquioa beat ODH, Cotto and margarito legitly. And the answer is no because in each fight he either made his opponant go down to an unattainable weight class or fight them at a catch weight. And as you said in your first sentance of this moronic post 'no one has said it made no difference.'

TBH I actually feel like I'm explaining this to a retarded child....

Well it's the same for Manny. Manny is not nearly as big as Antonio Margarito, and is considerably smaller than Miguel Cotto also. He's NOT a junior middleweight. He entered the ring against Margarito weighing 148lbs, compared to Margarito's 165.

SO DON'T TAKE THE FIGHT!

If you can't fight Antonio Margarito at 154 then don't get in the ring with him. If you're not a junior middle weight DON'T FIGHT FOR THE FUCKING JUNIOR MIDDLE WEIGHT TITLE! It's that simple. Cotto fights at 147 for a reason. That's the weight he fights best at. Not a pound below. Manny and his team knew that and thats why they made the catch weight.

Honestly Dildo are you fucking thick as pig shit? By the way that's rhetorical.

If it wasn't a catchweight Margarito would have likely entered the ring at 170. That would be a 22lb weight advantage. That's a big difference!

SEE ABOVE.

And why would Toni have entered at 170? because that's what his body naturally goes to function at. If Toni is normally around 170 in the ring but wasn't for the pacroid fight that tells me one thing. He was weight drained due to making the catch weight.

Many fighters have entered the ring with their opponant weighing 22 pounds + heavier and they've gone on and won the fight.

AGAIN IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE WEIGHT PARAMATERS OF A DIVISION DON'T FIGHT THERE!

How can you not see this? When two guys are different sizes they have find somewhere to meet, a weight to fight at. Against Cotto it was agreed 145, against Margarito it was agreed 150. You could make exactly the same argument for fighting Cotto at full welter, why not at 154? And why not fight Margarito at 160?

This is rediculously silly. Every year fighters move up weight classes with no monaing complaining or catch weights.

If you can't compete at the higher weight class because the fighters up there are 'too big' then don't go up there.

HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT!?

The higher they go the more it favours the bigger man because Manny isn't gaining weight. He's being massively outweighed.

THEN HE SHOULDN'T FIGHT AT THAT WEIGHT (how many times have I said that now? are you getting the message yet?)

I've said it many times but I will reiterate it. Your posts are ridiculous.

Firstly, it's ridiculous, not rediculous, although it does not surprise me that you are consistently unable to spell.

And you are again missing the point totally. People weigh different amounts. When two fighters of different size fight each other for a fight to be fair it needs to take place at a weight where both are able to function effectively.

Manny, as you pointed out has never weighed more than 148 lbs, so fighting at any weight above that, his weight disadvantage will only increase. He won't be gaining any weight but his opponent's will be.

So he fought Margarito for the 154 lb title, whilst he weighed only 148 lbs, and Margarito weighed 165. The 24 hour weigh in as I have said many times favours the naturally bigger man as he is able to rehydrate far above the maximum weight limit within that time limit.

It's also NOT an established part of boxing tradition. A guick google search shows that 24 hours weigh in's were introduced in 1983 to appease the media companies who wanted to hype the weigh in themselves. This now allowed men naturally too big for a weight class to compete in it.

Back to Margarito. Margarito has been a career welterweight, fighting at 147 lbs. Against Margarito he weighed in at just over 146. He was not weight drained against Manny. That wasn't the factor.

That factor was that as Margarito is much bigger than Manny, given the 24 hour weigh in discrepency he would be able to rehydrate to up to 170 lbs for a 154 lb fight. Manny meanwhile would not even get up to 150lbs, so he would have been fighting somebody who weighed over 20 lbs more.

The cathweight evens it out. The truly fair thing would be to have fighters enter the ring at the weight at which they are fighting, which is what happens is horse racing and Formula One for example. Under these circumstances Manny would probably even be able to win the middleweight title.

The catchweight is there to stamp out an prexistent bias. Should he be allowed to have fought for a vacant title belt? Well I guess that depends on your opinion. Personally I would rather Manny and Margarito, two established multiple world champions got to fight for a vacant strap than two ranking contenders. To me having the p4p number one best fighter in the world as a world champion is more credible than letting it go to the winner of Vanes Maritroysan and Ryan Rhodes for example but I guess you can disagree.

But argument against Margarito or Cotto being weight drained is simply false. They were not. Neither has even hinted at it being the case.

The simple maths is as follows.

Manny weighs a max of 148 lbs. He is prepared to let his opponent weigh 165, but not 170 for a 154 lb title.

You want fairness, make them enter the ring at no more than 154. Then see who wins. I reckon Manny would even beat Martinez under those conditions. And guess what, that would be fair according even to you. If you can't fight effectively at the weight class limit, then you shouldn't be fighting there right, your words not mine. Manny will fight any fighter in the world at 154 who enters the ring against him at 154 lbs. And he would likely beat them all too.

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

[Hornfinger]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

[milmascaras1]

hornfinger,

no matter how much you and i try to explain to these guys, they can never understand that pacquiao has always looked for way to gain an unfair advantage. i guess the kool-aid gets addicting that they're going to have to go to rehab to get off it.

[Kev]

Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.

It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.

IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!

You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.

So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.

The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.

That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.

As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?

The sport is what it is.

Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.

So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.

Simple.

I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.

Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.

Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?

The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.

Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.

If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.

If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.

If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.

He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.

And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.

I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.

But the answer is no.

Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?

Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........

Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.

Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.

Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.

The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.

What part of this do you disagree with?


Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................


And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.

So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.

Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.

[InTheNeutralCorner]

Hornfinger
Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.[/QUOTE]


But the 154 fighter did not fight at 154. He fought at 165. This is what Bilbo hs been saying about that 24 hour weight in. Those weren't the weight that they come in for the fight.

If Cotto thought that he could not beat Pacquiao at 145 then he would not have agreed to 145.

The ODLH fight should not even be debatable. Those were under Oscar's terms. And Manny had to go up 2 weight divisions!!!

And so what if Manny didn't think he could win those fights at those weights (and this is your opinion btw, unless you're going to tell us that you spoke to Manny), the thing is he won those fights at the weights that even his opponents didn't think are unreasonable for them to achieve without compromising their competitiveness.