Top 5 P4P Now?

[Kev]

Just to put it out there. The pound for pound ratings just got updated. Here it is:

1. Manny
2. Floyd
3. Nonito
4. Sergio
5. Juan Manuel

Fucking hell I thought it was bad enough that Donaire had jumped to 3 but they seem to want to court as much controversy as possible.

Wonjongkam at number 6 (really??), Wlad at 7 and Giovani Segura at 10

Utterly bizarre.


Is there really the competition at 108lbs to justify being rated in the top 10 p4p?

There is so so so much more strength in depth in the lightweight-welterweight and super middleweight classes that I can only see this is some kind of political point, positive discrimination .

Calderon for all his skills would not have been successful were he a welterweight as he simply does not have the power. Super skilful guy but he did so well because he fought in a weak division where you don't need to be a complete fighter to be the best.

Segura is simply not as good a fighter as higher weight guys like Martinez, Ward, Froch, Hopkins, Marquez, Lopez, Bradley, Khan etc etc. He's champ in a weak division.

It's like being the undisputed woman's middleweight champ or something, yeah it's good and all, but you don't need to be as complete a fighter to win that as you would the men's middleweight title.

The Ring are losing my respect.

Bilbo that's utter bullshit, Malignaggi has zero power and is nowhere as skilled as Calderon, his combination punching, defense and movement would have led him to be successful at any weight if his size was different

Mallignaggi is actually a good reference imo. Decent boxer but not close to the elite guys. If Calderon had been a welter I don't think he beats the tops guys like Floyd, Mosley, Cotto, Berto etc. He has all the skills, but simply not enough power. I stand by that. He would still be a good and respected fighter, just not p4p.

Who has Calderon ever beat that was as good as Andre Berto even?

Just do a quick boxrec check of all the pro's

There are 311 Straw weight fighters compared to 1398 at welterweight

Please explain mathematically how the straw weight guys can have as much strength in depth as the welterweights?

plus the vast majority of the smallest guys are part timers as well.

There are 1000 more fighters at welterweight to overcome. It's mathematically impossible for the competition to be as high and it's clear to see. Guys like Hugo Cazares would never get a world title in the more competitive divisions.

It's a fact that you need to be a more complete fighter to win one of the stacked weight classes than you would the straw weight division.

[erics44]

Martinez isnt top 5 lb4lb fighter in the world

he is a very good fighter but hasnt done enough to be top 5

geeky i know but i have just boxrecced his last 5 fights

Williams W KO 2
Pavlik W UD
Williams L MD
Cintron D
Bunema W RTD 8

there are many boxers with better records in their last 5 fights

[HattonTheHammer]

pacquiao
mayweather
marquez
klitschko
bradley

[generalbulldog]

Just to put it out there. The pound for pound ratings just got updated. Here it is:

1. Manny
2. Floyd
3. Nonito
4. Sergio
5. Juan Manuel

Fucking hell I thought it was bad enough that Donaire had jumped to 3 but they seem to want to court as much controversy as possible.

Wonjongkam at number 6 (really??), Wlad at 7 and Giovani Segura at 10

Utterly bizarre.


Is there really the competition at 108lbs to justify being rated in the top 10 p4p?

There is so so so much more strength in depth in the lightweight-welterweight and super middleweight classes that I can only see this is some kind of political point, positive discrimination .

Calderon for all his skills would not have been successful were he a welterweight as he simply does not have the power. Super skilful guy but he did so well because he fought in a weak division where you don't need to be a complete fighter to be the best.

Segura is simply not as good a fighter as higher weight guys like Martinez, Ward, Froch, Hopkins, Marquez, Lopez, Bradley, Khan etc etc. He's champ in a weak division.

It's like being the undisputed woman's middleweight champ or something, yeah it's good and all, but you don't need to be as complete a fighter to win that as you would the men's middleweight title.

The Ring are losing my respect.

Bilbo that's utter bullshit, Malignaggi has zero power and is nowhere as skilled as Calderon, his combination punching, defense and movement would have led him to be successful at any weight if his size was different

Mallignaggi is actually a good reference imo. Decent boxer but not close to the elite guys. If Calderon had been a welter I don't think he beats the tops guys like Floyd, Mosley, Cotto, Berto etc. He has all the skills, but simply not enough power. I stand by that. He would still be a good and respected fighter, just not p4p.

Who has Calderon ever beat that was as good as Andre Berto even?

Just do a quick boxrec check of all the pro's

There are 311 Straw weight fighters compared to 1398 at welterweight

Please explain mathematically how the straw weight guys can have as much strength in depth as the welterweights?

plus the vast majority of the smallest guys are part timers as well.

There are 1000 more fighters at welterweight to overcome. It's mathematically impossible for the competition to be as high and it's clear to see. Guys like Hugo Cazares would never get a world title in the more competitive divisions.

It's a fact that you need to be a more complete fighter to win one of the stacked weight classes than you would the straw weight division.

I have to say you make an excellent point. Calderon wouldn't have what it takes to beat Mayweather, Pacman, Berto, Mosley, etc. In fact looking at boxing history the welterweight division has been the deepest in terms of talent, it's been like that for every generation if one were to think about it.

This is why when people compared the careers of say Ricardo Lopez and Sugar Ray Leonard, Leonard wins by a landslide. Lopez does look like the perfect fighter, but his level of competition pales in comparison to Leonard's so maybe that's why he looks so invincible. If Lopez was to take Leonard's place and fought Tommy Hearns, Duran, Benitez, at welterweight I don't think he comes out unscathed with a perfect career record that he has. But if you were to put Leonard as a strawweight I would put my money on it he goes undefeated.

This is why I think they should get rid of some of the lower weights to make it more competitive. Get rid of strawweight and jr. flyweight and start at flyweight (112) as the lowest weight class, probably get rid of the 115 lb weight class also. This would increase the level of competition imo. Too many damn weight classes which dilutes the level of competition.

And yeah I do agree Calderon would probably be another Paulie Maglinaggi if he was an welterweight. Great boxing ability but crappy power to hurt Mosley, Floyd, Pacman, etc.

[Fenster]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

[HattonTheHammer]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

[Fenster]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

[HattonTheHammer]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

so conceivably a heavyweight could never make the p4p list if its all about the amount of potential fighters you could fight what with them being restricted solely to other heavyweights

[Fenster]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

so conceivably a heavyweight could never make the p4p list if its all about the amount of potential fighters you could fight what with them being restricted solely to other heavyweights

Heavyweights shouldn't be considered P4P anyway (unless they are absolute phenoms like prime Tyson who never had a size advantage).

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled.

If Wlad fought Pac he would kill him - literally. However, in a mythical P4P setting would that still be the case? If your answer is no then Pac is clearly the superior fighter. Simple.

[Fenster]

To the other point - yes if you are using numbers to determine how strong a particular fighters pool of competition is then single weight P4P fighters are gonna be thin.

Bradley should struggle to make anyones list (I guess theres about 1000 lightwelters).

[Kev]

Martinez isnt top 5 lb4lb fighter in the world

he is a very good fighter but hasnt done enough to be top 5

geeky i know but i have just boxrecced his last 5 fights

Williams W KO 2
Pavlik W UD
Williams L MD
Cintron D
Bunema W RTD 8

there are many boxers with better records in their last 5 fights

Disagree. His first fight with Williams could have gone either way, many thought Williams won. And Williams, despite having a rather crude looking style is a very very effective fighter who was absolutely p4p worthy when he fought Martinez. He has beaten some good guys and Martinez argubaly went 2 up against him. Pavlik is a fine win and led himt o being the ring champ at 160 and a two weight world champ. Kintron is an acomplished fighter and I can only assume you didnt see the fight if you are counting that as a draw. Martinez KOd him in the middle rounds but he was allowed to continue, and he clearly outpointed him only to somehow get robbed in a frankly baffling decision.
He is a beast for anyone around those weight classes.

[Kev]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

Not really. Firstly he picked up belts in two divisions, he wasnt king as demonstrated by the fact he just got knocked out trying to unify.

Furthermore he never really moved up to become a two weight champ. He started his career at 107 then moved down to win a 105 title and then went back up

In his entire career the difference between his max and min weights is less than 4lbs. Against Segura he weighed the same as he did on his debut so he has hardly torn through the divisions a la Pacquaio or Barrera, Morales, Marquez etc.

Hes a great defensive fighter but I highly doubt he would have been as succesful as a welterweight without more power. IN fact I challenge you to name a fighter in the higher weight classes who was as highly rated as Calderon with as little power in the past 20 years? 30 years?

As for a comparison to Ward. Not many have Ward on their p4p lists unless I am much mistaken? Also I think Wards potential to achieve more than Calderon is very likely. Most would believe that Ward could ultimately be competitive as high as 175 and still be a world champ, certainly he will likely attempt that eventually.

Calderon has gone up 3 lbs, and even that was going back up th where started out originally rather than climbing to face bigger guys.

[Kev]

Calderon was a two weight champion. That adds roughly 500 more fighters to the 311.

That means he was the king of 800 boxers. Which is the equivalent of topping the super-middleweight division.

So if you think Ward is P4P worthy based on his exploits at 168 then mathematically so is Calderon. Fact.

thats the very same logic that could argue sergio martinez for p4p #1 isnt it??

Is it? How do you mean?

I don't think so though considering Pac has won in about a million different weight classes.

so conceivably a heavyweight could never make the p4p list if its all about the amount of potential fighters you could fight what with them being restricted solely to other heavyweights

Heavyweights shouldn't be considered P4P anyway (unless they are absolute phenoms like prime Tyson who never had a size advantage).

P4P is about mythical match-ups with the size and weight leveled.

If Wlad fought Pac he would kill him - literally. However, in a mythical P4P setting would that still be the case? If your answer is no then Pac is clearly the superior fighter. Simple.

Manny vs Wlad is an impossible matchup to speculate on as either reducing Wlad in size or giving Manny size changes who they are as fighters. its like saying what is stronger p4p an ant or an elephant? Certainly as a percentage of its bodyweight an any can lift hundreds of times than an elephant, but it is not physically possible for an ant to be substantially bigger than it is due to the limitations of its exoskeleton and atmospheric and gravitional pressures. An ant the size of an elephant would collapse under its own weight.

Likewise Manny as a heavyweight no longer has the speed and Wlad at welter no longer has the height, reach and size. You can argue that Wlad is good because he is big. But this is false, there are many other big guys out there but they routinely get beaten by smaller heavyweights. Big on its own is no more an advantage on its own as being fast. Skill and ability to make use of your assets is what is important and both Manny and Wlad are superb at utilising theirs.

[Kev]

To the other point - yes if you are using numbers to determine how strong a particular fighters pool of competition is then single weight P4P fighters are gonna be thin.

Bradley should struggle to make anyones list (I guess theres about 1000 lightwelters).

Basically what Im arguing is that the reality might be that some of the top challengers in a stacked division might be more complete fighters than champs in weaker divisions.

Compare womans boxing to men. Would anyone argue that the skillset is equal in both sports? Of course it isnt the standard of womans boxing is simply not as high. +t doesnt mean there arnt some good fighters but Holly Holme has had easier competition to fight than Sakio Bika for example.

I just think if u can accept that then the same truth must apply to weight classes in mens boxing that have very little competition. Guys like Calderon routinely fight guys with records that would make them total novices in higher weight classes. Its not uncommon to see guys fight for world titles with less than 10 fights. Its not because they are more gifted, its just because there is a much smaller pool of fighters.
Accurate rankings should recognise and reflect that.

[erics44]

Martinez isnt top 5 lb4lb fighter in the world

he is a very good fighter but hasnt done enough to be top 5

geeky i know but i have just boxrecced his last 5 fights

Williams W KO 2
Pavlik W UD
Williams L MD
Cintron D
Bunema W RTD 8

there are many boxers with better records in their last 5 fights

Disagree. His first fight with Williams could have gone either way, many thought Williams won. And Williams, despite having a rather crude looking style is a very very effective fighter who was absolutely p4p worthy when he fought Martinez. He has beaten some good guys and Martinez argubaly went 2 up against him. Pavlik is a fine win and led himt o being the ring champ at 160 and a two weight world champ. Kintron is an acomplished fighter and I can only assume you didnt see the fight if you are counting that as a draw. Martinez KOd him in the middle rounds but he was allowed to continue, and he clearly outpointed him only to somehow get robbed in a frankly baffling decision.
He is a beast for anyone around those weight classes.

and a lot seem to agree with you

you could put a different spin on it tho

he lost to williams first time, yes williams is a good fighter but he still lost

pavlik was a good win but what state was pavlik in at the time? and wasnt it the same pavlik who had been taken apart by hopkins? ok at a higher weight but still a hopkins who himself had not long since fought at middleweight

and the cintron fight may have been a bad descision but cintron wasnt exactly in great form and he still won enough rounds to make the descison acceptable

he is a cracking fighter, but I dont think he has done enough to warrant top 5