Martinez-Ishida in the works???

[generalbulldog]

I will be the 1st to admit it, I did criticize Pac for fighting Mosley. So I'm going to say it here that Martinez should get the same level of treatment. Ishida? Chavez Jr? Manfredo? That's just horrible man. That's like Floyd or Pac fighting Maglinaggi. Mosley is on the decline, but fuck at least he's not a c-level fighter.

And another thing, it's expected of Floyd and Manny to fight Martinez at 160, well how about Martinez take on Dirrel, Kessler, Bute, Ward, at 168? I remember quite a lot of people on this board was up in arms saying that's not fair to Martinez he'll be too small. But it's expected of the top 2 guys at the sport to fight at 160? But it's not expected of Martinez to fight at 168 "cuz he small." hahaha


BTW, I ain't got nothing against Sergio, but the criticism and expectations should be consistent.

[Rantcatrat]

I will be the 1st to admit it, I did criticize Pac for fighting Mosley. So I'm going to say it here that Martinez should get the same level of treatment. Ishida? Chavez Jr? Manfredo? That's just horrible man. That's like Floyd or Pac fighting Maglinaggi. Mosley is on the decline, but fuck at least he's not a c-level fighter.

And another thing, it's expected of Floyd and Manny to fight Martinez at 160, well how about Martinez take on Dirrel, Kessler, Bute, Ward, at 168? I remember quite a lot of people on this board was up in arms saying that's not fair to Martinez he'll be too small. But it's expected of the top 2 guys at the sport to fight at 160? But it's not expected of Martinez to fight at 168 "cuz he small." hahaha


BTW, I ain't got nothing against Sergio, but the criticism and expectations should be consistent.

It is not expected of Floyd or Manny to fight Martinez. If people are thinking Floyd or Manny would fight Martinez, they're dreaming.

[Cressa121]

I will be the 1st to admit it, I did criticize Pac for fighting Mosley. So I'm going to say it here that Martinez should get the same level of treatment. Ishida? Chavez Jr? Manfredo? That's just horrible man. That's like Floyd or Pac fighting Maglinaggi. Mosley is on the decline, but fuck at least he's not a c-level fighter.

And another thing, it's expected of Floyd and Manny to fight Martinez at 160, well how about Martinez take on Dirrel, Kessler, Bute, Ward, at 168? I remember quite a lot of people on this board was up in arms saying that's not fair to Martinez he'll be too small. But it's expected of the top 2 guys at the sport to fight at 160? But it's not expected of Martinez to fight at 168 "cuz he small." hahaha


BTW, I ain't got nothing against Sergio, but the criticism and expectations should be consistent.

I think it's completely unreasonable of anyone to expect Mayweather or Pacquiao to fight Martinez. DiBella has said before that getting Martinez back down to 154 would be near impossible, and neither Pacquiao or Mayweather should be going there again. I'd give either massive credit for doing the fight but its ridiculous of anyone to expect them to take that fight. We're talking about fighters who have already come through 7 or 8 weight classes to get to WW going up another 2 to fight Martinez. That's just ridiculous to expect.

Ishida is a horrible fight. I mean Pirog was dismissed as a potential opponent for just beating a prospect in Jacobs, which is exactly what Ishida has just done. If he's looking at fighters like Manfredo and Ishida, then they should just make the Pirog fight now. I wouldn't begrudge Martinez an easier fight as he's had a tough run of opponents, but if he wants to be seen as the #1 in the world fighting people like Ishida won't do that. There aren't too many options though, I'd love to see him fight Sturm but realistically that isn't happening outside of Germany, and even then could you see Sturm taking it? I'm not so sure

No way he gets Cotto or Chavez Jr. either. You don't carefully move a fighter along to 41-0 to put him in with a Martinez at this stage.

I agree with the bit at the end that people need to be consistent with their criticisms and expectations. Its not fair to say Pacquiao should move up to fight Martinez, but that Martinez would be too small to go to 168, and its not fair to criticise Pacquiao or Mayweather for poor opponent choices if we're just going to give Sergio a pass for taking a gimme.

[JazMerkin]

I will be the 1st to admit it, I did criticize Pac for fighting Mosley. So I'm going to say it here that Martinez should get the same level of treatment. Ishida? Chavez Jr? Manfredo? That's just horrible man. That's like Floyd or Pac fighting Maglinaggi. Mosley is on the decline, but fuck at least he's not a c-level fighter.

And another thing, it's expected of Floyd and Manny to fight Martinez at 160, well how about Martinez take on Dirrel, Kessler, Bute, Ward, at 168? I remember quite a lot of people on this board was up in arms saying that's not fair to Martinez he'll be too small. But it's expected of the top 2 guys at the sport to fight at 160? But it's not expected of Martinez to fight at 168 "cuz he small." hahaha


BTW, I ain't got nothing against Sergio, but the criticism and expectations should be consistent.

Exactly, people use the fact they've fought at LMW before as justification, but in both their cases, they fought significantly bigger men with weight advantages of 20lbs+ on the night. The fact they both weigh in in the 146-152 range on the night should tell people that they simply cannot fight at MW.

Martinez has not fought a fully-fledged MW since Pavlik, so why not give Pirog a go? I mean Ishida, despite his height, is just another LMW, so at least a Manfredo fight gives him a proper MW. I've no problem him taking a gimme, but while he does let's not talk about him being the best fighter in the world. As far as I'm concerned, Malignaggi is a higher level of fighter than Ishida, I'd place Ishida more on the level of a Delvin Rodriguez. Can you imagine the uproar if Floyd or Manny fought him??

If DiBella & Lewcowicz wants to prove Sergiof the best fighter in the world he'll step up to take on some of the opposition at 168 or fight the best in or around 160, not just any LMW who's had a decent win recently.

[Rantcatrat]

I will be the 1st to admit it, I did criticize Pac for fighting Mosley. So I'm going to say it here that Martinez should get the same level of treatment. Ishida? Chavez Jr? Manfredo? That's just horrible man. That's like Floyd or Pac fighting Maglinaggi. Mosley is on the decline, but fuck at least he's not a c-level fighter.

And another thing, it's expected of Floyd and Manny to fight Martinez at 160, well how about Martinez take on Dirrel, Kessler, Bute, Ward, at 168? I remember quite a lot of people on this board was up in arms saying that's not fair to Martinez he'll be too small. But it's expected of the top 2 guys at the sport to fight at 160? But it's not expected of Martinez to fight at 168 "cuz he small." hahaha


BTW, I ain't got nothing against Sergio, but the criticism and expectations should be consistent.

Exactly, people use the fact they've fought at LMW before as justification, but in both their cases, they fought significantly bigger men with weight advantages of 20lbs+ on the night. The fact they both weigh in in the 146-152 range on the night should tell people that they simply cannot fight at MW.

Martinez has not fought a fully-fledged MW since Pavlik, so why not give Pirog a go? I mean Ishida, despite his height, is just another LMW, so at least a Manfredo fight gives him a proper MW. I've no problem him taking a gimme, but while he does let's not talk about him being the best fighter in the world. As far as I'm concerned, Malignaggi is a higher level of fighter than Ishida, I'd place Ishida more on the level of a Delvin Rodriguez. Can you imagine the uproar if Floyd or Manny fought him??

If DiBella & Lewcowicz wants to prove Sergiof the best fighter in the world he'll step up to take on some of the opposition at 168 or fight the best in or around 160, not just any LMW who's had a decent win recently.

Noone is arguing though that Ishida is a good opponent. I thought about it yesterday after our discussion and my opinion is that Sergio should wait to face the winner of the Zbik v. Chavez Jr. fight. Zbik right now is a lower top ten middleweight and if Chavez Jr. beats him that makes Chavez Jr. a lower top ten middleweight. Facing a lower top ten middleweight is fair for a take easy fight while Pirog fights Manfredo or something and gets back on American TV. Plus Chavez Jr. sells a lot of tickets.

I continue to say though that Pirog is a bit overrated. I don't think he needs to step up to 168 to prove that he is one of the best in the world. He started his career as a welterweight and spent most of it as a junior middleweight. He's only really fought at middleweight in two fights. Maybe in the future he jumps up, but that is like a year or two from now. Now he should have his sights on Sturm or Pirog or another top middleweight.

What has Pirog done to deserve a fight with Martinez? That's not to say he isn't the best opponent out there right now because Martinez' prospects are dim, but I mean there's no reason to be clammoring for him to face Martinez. If anything, James Kirkland was a more heralded boxer than Danny Jacobs.

[JazMerkin]

I will be the 1st to admit it, I did criticize Pac for fighting Mosley. So I'm going to say it here that Martinez should get the same level of treatment. Ishida? Chavez Jr? Manfredo? That's just horrible man. That's like Floyd or Pac fighting Maglinaggi. Mosley is on the decline, but fuck at least he's not a c-level fighter.

And another thing, it's expected of Floyd and Manny to fight Martinez at 160, well how about Martinez take on Dirrel, Kessler, Bute, Ward, at 168? I remember quite a lot of people on this board was up in arms saying that's not fair to Martinez he'll be too small. But it's expected of the top 2 guys at the sport to fight at 160? But it's not expected of Martinez to fight at 168 "cuz he small." hahaha


BTW, I ain't got nothing against Sergio, but the criticism and expectations should be consistent.

Exactly, people use the fact they've fought at LMW before as justification, but in both their cases, they fought significantly bigger men with weight advantages of 20lbs+ on the night. The fact they both weigh in in the 146-152 range on the night should tell people that they simply cannot fight at MW.

Martinez has not fought a fully-fledged MW since Pavlik, so why not give Pirog a go? I mean Ishida, despite his height, is just another LMW, so at least a Manfredo fight gives him a proper MW. I've no problem him taking a gimme, but while he does let's not talk about him being the best fighter in the world. As far as I'm concerned, Malignaggi is a higher level of fighter than Ishida, I'd place Ishida more on the level of a Delvin Rodriguez. Can you imagine the uproar if Floyd or Manny fought him??

If DiBella & Lewcowicz wants to prove Sergiof the best fighter in the world he'll step up to take on some of the opposition at 168 or fight the best in or around 160, not just any LMW who's had a decent win recently.

Noone is arguing though that Ishida is a good opponent. I thought about it yesterday after our discussion and my opinion is that Sergio should wait to face the winner of the Zbik v. Chavez Jr. fight. Zbik right now is a lower top ten middleweight and if Chavez Jr. beats him that makes Chavez Jr. a lower top ten middleweight. Facing a lower top ten middleweight is fair for a take easy fight while Pirog fights Manfredo or something and gets back on American TV. Plus Chavez Jr. sells a lot of tickets.

I continue to say though that Pirog is a bit overrated. I don't think he needs to step up to 168 to prove that he is one of the best in the world. He started his career as a welterweight and spent most of it as a junior middleweight. He's only really fought at middleweight in two fights. Maybe in the future he jumps up, but that is like a year or two from now. Now he should have his sights on Sturm or Pirog or another top middleweight.

What has Pirog done to deserve a fight with Martinez? That's not to say he isn't the best opponent out there right now because Martinez' prospects are dim, but I mean there's no reason to be clammoring for him to face Martinez. If anything, James Kirkland was a more heralded boxer than Danny Jacobs.

Before he went jail maybe, but prison does things to a man *said in ominous voice*

I have little problem with a Zbik/Chavez Jr match-up or even Manfredo, but it's not going to make him the best fighter on the planet. If he stepped up & beat any of Bute, Ward or Froch then it would be up for debate.

You mention that he started his career as a Welterweight, but when he last fought there Mayweather was a 130lber & Pacquiao a Super-Bantamweight. Would we excuse them fighting Delvin Rodriguez on that basis. You also say he's only fought 2 fights there, but both Williams fights, Pavlik & Dzinziruk he was nearer to the MW limit than LMW & that's a good 18 months at the weight. That's more than enough time to be saying ok he should fight proper MWs regularly or move up.

The reason there's a clamor for Pirog is because he's undefeated, looked spectacular on HBO & because Sturm aside, who would be a better match-up for Martinez?

[Rantcatrat]

I will be the 1st to admit it, I did criticize Pac for fighting Mosley. So I'm going to say it here that Martinez should get the same level of treatment. Ishida? Chavez Jr? Manfredo? That's just horrible man. That's like Floyd or Pac fighting Maglinaggi. Mosley is on the decline, but fuck at least he's not a c-level fighter.

And another thing, it's expected of Floyd and Manny to fight Martinez at 160, well how about Martinez take on Dirrel, Kessler, Bute, Ward, at 168? I remember quite a lot of people on this board was up in arms saying that's not fair to Martinez he'll be too small. But it's expected of the top 2 guys at the sport to fight at 160? But it's not expected of Martinez to fight at 168 "cuz he small." hahaha


BTW, I ain't got nothing against Sergio, but the criticism and expectations should be consistent.

Exactly, people use the fact they've fought at LMW before as justification, but in both their cases, they fought significantly bigger men with weight advantages of 20lbs+ on the night. The fact they both weigh in in the 146-152 range on the night should tell people that they simply cannot fight at MW.

Martinez has not fought a fully-fledged MW since Pavlik, so why not give Pirog a go? I mean Ishida, despite his height, is just another LMW, so at least a Manfredo fight gives him a proper MW. I've no problem him taking a gimme, but while he does let's not talk about him being the best fighter in the world. As far as I'm concerned, Malignaggi is a higher level of fighter than Ishida, I'd place Ishida more on the level of a Delvin Rodriguez. Can you imagine the uproar if Floyd or Manny fought him??

If DiBella & Lewcowicz wants to prove Sergiof the best fighter in the world he'll step up to take on some of the opposition at 168 or fight the best in or around 160, not just any LMW who's had a decent win recently.

Noone is arguing though that Ishida is a good opponent. I thought about it yesterday after our discussion and my opinion is that Sergio should wait to face the winner of the Zbik v. Chavez Jr. fight. Zbik right now is a lower top ten middleweight and if Chavez Jr. beats him that makes Chavez Jr. a lower top ten middleweight. Facing a lower top ten middleweight is fair for a take easy fight while Pirog fights Manfredo or something and gets back on American TV. Plus Chavez Jr. sells a lot of tickets.

I continue to say though that Pirog is a bit overrated. I don't think he needs to step up to 168 to prove that he is one of the best in the world. He started his career as a welterweight and spent most of it as a junior middleweight. He's only really fought at middleweight in two fights. Maybe in the future he jumps up, but that is like a year or two from now. Now he should have his sights on Sturm or Pirog or another top middleweight.

What has Pirog done to deserve a fight with Martinez? That's not to say he isn't the best opponent out there right now because Martinez' prospects are dim, but I mean there's no reason to be clammoring for him to face Martinez. If anything, James Kirkland was a more heralded boxer than Danny Jacobs.

Before he went jail maybe, but prison does things to a man *said in ominous voice*

I have little problem with a Zbik/Chavez Jr match-up or even Manfredo, but it's not going to make him the best fighter on the planet. If he stepped up & beat any of Bute, Ward or Froch then it would be up for debate.

You mention that he started his career as a Welterweight, but when he last fought there Mayweather was a 130lber & Pacquiao a Super-Bantamweight. Would we excuse them fighting Delvin Rodriguez on that basis. You also say he's only fought 2 fights there, but both Williams fights, Pavlik & Dzinziruk he was nearer to the MW limit than LMW & that's a good 18 months at the weight. That's more than enough time to be saying ok he should fight proper MWs regularly or move up.

The reason there's a clamor for Pirog is because he's undefeated, looked spectacular on HBO & because Sturm aside, who would be a better match-up for Martinez?

I don't really disagree with anything you said. The only thing I disagree with is that if Sergio Martinez comes down to 154 than he should be able to fight anyone at 154 without taking any crap for it. In my opinion, Sergio has grown into being a middleweight, but like Cotto at 154 is a small junior middleweight, Sergio is a small middleweight. Don't get me wrong though, he's still a middleweight. However, if there is better competition at 154 and he can make 154, than why not take the fight?

Jaz, would you give Martinez more credit for beating Cotto or Floyd at 154 or Pirog at 160?

Pacquiao is too small. Repeatedly, I've said that. There is no argument. Sergio will not, and won't ever, fight Pacquiao. I disagree a little bit about Floyd though. Floyd won a title at 154 against Oscar so it's not a stretch that Floyd could face Martinez at 154. Floyd's the best fighter in the world when he's active - Pirog isn't even on the list. The whole thing is that Sergio deserves a big money fight. A Manny/Floyd type of fight, just not against them. The only person at or around that weight class who is a big money fight is Cotto and on second thought, maybe Chavez Jr.

[JonnyFolds]

Martinez... not coming back down to 154. Not an option for him. period.

Pacquiao too small, but do you think for a second if he was given the opportunity to fight him he would turn it down? He'd beat the little midget up, keep his belts (this would def be a 155lb catchweight for the MW title <yawn>), and each would go home a very very rich man. Problem is Pac would have the air of invisibility knocked right out of him.

Floyd would probably fight Martinez, but he would go beat up his girlfriend after to make himself feel like a real man.

In case you haven't been keeping up. At the 1 month out weight in for Williams Martinez II Martinez weighed something like 182lbs? I think that pretty much sums where he will be spending the rest of his career fighting. Also, Martinez is not very tall @ 5'10".

Martinez does not need to jump through ANY hoops. He has had to bow down to his opposition in terms of contractual agreements. Does he even get to fight in his home country?

[JazMerkin]

I will be the 1st to admit it, I did criticize Pac for fighting Mosley. So I'm going to say it here that Martinez should get the same level of treatment. Ishida? Chavez Jr? Manfredo? That's just horrible man. That's like Floyd or Pac fighting Maglinaggi. Mosley is on the decline, but fuck at least he's not a c-level fighter.

And another thing, it's expected of Floyd and Manny to fight Martinez at 160, well how about Martinez take on Dirrel, Kessler, Bute, Ward, at 168? I remember quite a lot of people on this board was up in arms saying that's not fair to Martinez he'll be too small. But it's expected of the top 2 guys at the sport to fight at 160? But it's not expected of Martinez to fight at 168 "cuz he small." hahaha


BTW, I ain't got nothing against Sergio, but the criticism and expectations should be consistent.

Exactly, people use the fact they've fought at LMW before as justification, but in both their cases, they fought significantly bigger men with weight advantages of 20lbs+ on the night. The fact they both weigh in in the 146-152 range on the night should tell people that they simply cannot fight at MW.

Martinez has not fought a fully-fledged MW since Pavlik, so why not give Pirog a go? I mean Ishida, despite his height, is just another LMW, so at least a Manfredo fight gives him a proper MW. I've no problem him taking a gimme, but while he does let's not talk about him being the best fighter in the world. As far as I'm concerned, Malignaggi is a higher level of fighter than Ishida, I'd place Ishida more on the level of a Delvin Rodriguez. Can you imagine the uproar if Floyd or Manny fought him??

If DiBella & Lewcowicz wants to prove Sergiof the best fighter in the world he'll step up to take on some of the opposition at 168 or fight the best in or around 160, not just any LMW who's had a decent win recently.

Noone is arguing though that Ishida is a good opponent. I thought about it yesterday after our discussion and my opinion is that Sergio should wait to face the winner of the Zbik v. Chavez Jr. fight. Zbik right now is a lower top ten middleweight and if Chavez Jr. beats him that makes Chavez Jr. a lower top ten middleweight. Facing a lower top ten middleweight is fair for a take easy fight while Pirog fights Manfredo or something and gets back on American TV. Plus Chavez Jr. sells a lot of tickets.

I continue to say though that Pirog is a bit overrated. I don't think he needs to step up to 168 to prove that he is one of the best in the world. He started his career as a welterweight and spent most of it as a junior middleweight. He's only really fought at middleweight in two fights. Maybe in the future he jumps up, but that is like a year or two from now. Now he should have his sights on Sturm or Pirog or another top middleweight.

What has Pirog done to deserve a fight with Martinez? That's not to say he isn't the best opponent out there right now because Martinez' prospects are dim, but I mean there's no reason to be clammoring for him to face Martinez. If anything, James Kirkland was a more heralded boxer than Danny Jacobs.

Before he went jail maybe, but prison does things to a man *said in ominous voice*

I have little problem with a Zbik/Chavez Jr match-up or even Manfredo, but it's not going to make him the best fighter on the planet. If he stepped up & beat any of Bute, Ward or Froch then it would be up for debate.

You mention that he started his career as a Welterweight, but when he last fought there Mayweather was a 130lber & Pacquiao a Super-Bantamweight. Would we excuse them fighting Delvin Rodriguez on that basis. You also say he's only fought 2 fights there, but both Williams fights, Pavlik & Dzinziruk he was nearer to the MW limit than LMW & that's a good 18 months at the weight. That's more than enough time to be saying ok he should fight proper MWs regularly or move up.

The reason there's a clamor for Pirog is because he's undefeated, looked spectacular on HBO & because Sturm aside, who would be a better match-up for Martinez?

I don't really disagree with anything you said. The only thing I disagree with is that if Sergio Martinez comes down to 154 than he should be able to fight anyone at 154 without taking any crap for it. In my opinion, Sergio has grown into being a middleweight, but like Cotto at 154 is a small junior middleweight, Sergio is a small middleweight. Don't get me wrong though, he's still a middleweight. However, if there is better competition at 154 and he can make 154, than why not take the fight?

Jaz, would you give Martinez more credit for beating Cotto or Floyd at 154 or Pirog at 160?

Pacquiao is too small. Repeatedly, I've said that. There is no argument. Sergio will not, and won't ever, fight Pacquiao. I disagree a little bit about Floyd though. Floyd won a title at 154 against Oscar so it's not a stretch that Floyd could face Martinez at 154. Floyd's the best fighter in the world when he's active - Pirog isn't even on the list. The whole thing is that Sergio deserves a big money fight. A Manny/Floyd type of fight, just not against them. The only person at or around that weight class who is a big money fight is Cotto and on second thought, maybe Chavez Jr.

Floyd according to HBO only weighed 150 on the night of the ODLH fight. Oscar looked about 170. Would he really give that all that away again for nowhere near the same financial gain? 154 offers nothing for either Floyd or Manny to justify giving away all the weight. I agree, no way Top Rank puts him in. If Sergio was big money, Floyd would do it, but only at MW, where it gets him another title. But, I doubt it & I wouldn't expect either to do it, neither is a big Welter let alone a LMW.

I think Sergio is deserving of a money fight, but those are available at 168 if he chooses to chase it. Like I said, I also have no problems with JCC Jr, should he beat Zbik, but I doubt Arum lets that happen. Cotto might just do it, even if his opposition at LMW hasn't exactly been terrifying so far. I'd give him more credit for Floyd & about the same for Cotto/Pirog, but Floyd is unrealistic to me for reasons above plus I think Sergio has outgrown 154 over the past 18 months. He hasn't fought there in over 2 years. That would be a great fight, a real 50-50, but I don't see it, particularly when there's a far more financially prudent fight in Pacquiao.

Don't think I don't like the guy, I more just have a problem with the same people excusing an Ishida fight, but then acting like PBF & Pac only fight extras from Cheers. He does deserve a big fight, maybe if Williams can come back & look good, they can have a 3rd with Sergio getting the lionshare this time.

[generalbulldog]

Forgot about this thread.

Stop defending his decision to fight c-class fighters like Ishida (feather fisted journeyman), Manfreddy Jr. (reality tv boxing star), and JCC jr or a bunch of 154 pounders.

imagine the shit Pac or Floyd would get if they fought a bunch of 140 pounders or Matthew Hatton.