No comments regarding Tomasz adamek vs kevin mcbride???

[Hulk]

I don't mean to disparage Adamek by saying he just has a 2% chance of beating Vitali.....I just look at Adamek's skill set, his relative lack of power, and his lack of defense and for me all signs point to Vitali winning by stoppage.

I've got nothing but respect for Adamek, but it'll be a fucking miracle if he lasts the distance much less wins...he'll be fighting a guy who can box and who has an 88% KO ratio and who has never been behind on the scorecards and has never been down in his entire career. Its just long odds for Adamek is all.

I worked it out mathematically above you. It's a 6% chance.

Hulk is completely wrong on this. If the odds of a fight were 70/30 then how did Vitali win 40 of 42 fights? With 70/30 odds he would have 3 losses for every 10 fights so he'd have been beaten 12 times by now.

Well I'm sorry to break this to our resident Saddoboxing Einstein, BUT Vitali has not fought 42 Adameks. Adamek represents one of Vitali's best opponents to date, and certainly his best opponent since his comeback.

Thus I give the man a 30% chance of beating Vitali.

Its all opinion, and subjective, NOT MATHEMATICAL.

Adamek is not a great opponent in an absolute sense. He's done tremendously 'for a light heavyweight moving up' but if you judge him as a heavyeight irrespective of his size he hasn't done a lot at all. He's had one decent fight where, in a real struggle, he outboxed an injured Chris Arreola, in his other heavyweight fights he has looked pretty poor to be honest.

No man who gets taken 12 rounds by Kevin Mcbride would ever have a shot at beating Vitali Klitschko. This is a guy who has lost his last 6 fights or so and not won a fight in 5 years!

It wasn't that long ago that Adamek was losing to Chad Dawson. The idea that he could give Vitali a competitive fight is lunacy.

And calling Miles the cool headed, voice of reason........

Miles is certainly being much more level headed than you, you Goddamn stubborn little hobbit !!!

Chad Dawson is just a tad faster and better boxer than Vitali, just a tad...

So now the elephant seal Arreola was injured, and thats the reason Adamek beat him ?

Adamek knocked out an old Andrew Golota, stopped Vinny Madalone, and beat Michael Grant. He won EVERY SINGLE ROUND against McBride on the scorecards, and so what if he didn't KO a 280 lb man ?

Vitali is being severely overrated here, not to give the #4 heavyweight in the world a realistic chance at beating him.

Hell Adamek's resume at heavyweight is arguably better than David Haye's record at heavyweight.

[Kev]

I don't mean to disparage Adamek by saying he just has a 2% chance of beating Vitali.....I just look at Adamek's skill set, his relative lack of power, and his lack of defense and for me all signs point to Vitali winning by stoppage.

I've got nothing but respect for Adamek, but it'll be a fucking miracle if he lasts the distance much less wins...he'll be fighting a guy who can box and who has an 88% KO ratio and who has never been behind on the scorecards and has never been down in his entire career. Its just long odds for Adamek is all.

I worked it out mathematically above you. It's a 6% chance.

Hulk is completely wrong on this. If the odds of a fight were 70/30 then how did Vitali win 40 of 42 fights? With 70/30 odds he would have 3 losses for every 10 fights so he'd have been beaten 12 times by now.

Well I'm sorry to break this to our resident Saddoboxing Einstein, BUT Vitali has not fought 42 Adameks. Adamek represents one of Vitali's best opponents to date, and certainly his best opponent since his comeback.

Thus I give the man a 30% chance of beating Vitali.

Its all opinion, and subjective, NOT MATHEMATICAL.

Adamek is not a great opponent in an absolute sense. He's done tremendously 'for a light heavyweight moving up' but if you judge him as a heavyeight irrespective of his size he hasn't done a lot at all. He's had one decent fight where, in a real struggle, he outboxed an injured Chris Arreola, in his other heavyweight fights he has looked pretty poor to be honest.

No man who gets taken 12 rounds by Kevin Mcbride would ever have a shot at beating Vitali Klitschko. This is a guy who has lost his last 6 fights or so and not won a fight in 5 years!

It wasn't that long ago that Adamek was losing to Chad Dawson. The idea that he could give Vitali a competitive fight is lunacy.

And calling Miles the cool headed, voice of reason........

Miles is certainly being much more level headed than you, you Goddamn stubborn little hobbit !!!

Chad Dawson is just a tad faster and better boxer than Vitali, just a tad...

So now the elephant seal Arreola was injured, and thats the reason Adamek beat him ?

Adamek knocked out an old Andrew Golota, stopped Vinny Madalone, and beat Michael Grant. He won EVERY SINGLE ROUND against McBride on the scorecards, and so what if he didn't KO a 280 lb man ?

Vitali is being severely overrated here, not to give the #4 heavyweight in the world a realistic chance at beating him.

Hell Adamek's resume at heavyweight is arguably better than David Haye's record at heavyweight.

I don't think Haye's resume is that impressive either but he's never fought an opponent as bad as Vinny Maddalone or Kevin Mcbride at heavy and crucially Valuev aside he has knocked ALL the others out.

Haye has power. I don't think he would beat Vitali either but at least he has enough power that they would have to respect him.

Adamek just does not have enough of anything to challenge Vitali and his recent opposition has been fucking horrible.

I will happily sig bet you that Vitali wins that fight easily. Adamek might have a couple decent rounds early but the writing will be on the wall as early as round 3 and by round 4 we will just be watching to see how many rounds he makes it through.

Either he kepts stopped late or he makes his way to a decision where he loses by at least 8 rounds. I'm happy to take that bet.

[Hulk]

I don't mean to disparage Adamek by saying he just has a 2% chance of beating Vitali.....I just look at Adamek's skill set, his relative lack of power, and his lack of defense and for me all signs point to Vitali winning by stoppage.

I've got nothing but respect for Adamek, but it'll be a fucking miracle if he lasts the distance much less wins...he'll be fighting a guy who can box and who has an 88% KO ratio and who has never been behind on the scorecards and has never been down in his entire career. Its just long odds for Adamek is all.

I worked it out mathematically above you. It's a 6% chance.

Hulk is completely wrong on this. If the odds of a fight were 70/30 then how did Vitali win 40 of 42 fights? With 70/30 odds he would have 3 losses for every 10 fights so he'd have been beaten 12 times by now.

Well I'm sorry to break this to our resident Saddoboxing Einstein, BUT Vitali has not fought 42 Adameks. Adamek represents one of Vitali's best opponents to date, and certainly his best opponent since his comeback.

Thus I give the man a 30% chance of beating Vitali.

Its all opinion, and subjective, NOT MATHEMATICAL.

Adamek is not a great opponent in an absolute sense. He's done tremendously 'for a light heavyweight moving up' but if you judge him as a heavyeight irrespective of his size he hasn't done a lot at all. He's had one decent fight where, in a real struggle, he outboxed an injured Chris Arreola, in his other heavyweight fights he has looked pretty poor to be honest.

No man who gets taken 12 rounds by Kevin Mcbride would ever have a shot at beating Vitali Klitschko. This is a guy who has lost his last 6 fights or so and not won a fight in 5 years!

It wasn't that long ago that Adamek was losing to Chad Dawson. The idea that he could give Vitali a competitive fight is lunacy.

And calling Miles the cool headed, voice of reason........

Miles is certainly being much more level headed than you, you Goddamn stubborn little hobbit !!!

Chad Dawson is just a tad faster and better boxer than Vitali, just a tad...

So now the elephant seal Arreola was injured, and thats the reason Adamek beat him ?

Adamek knocked out an old Andrew Golota, stopped Vinny Madalone, and beat Michael Grant. He won EVERY SINGLE ROUND against McBride on the scorecards, and so what if he didn't KO a 280 lb man ?

Vitali is being severely overrated here, not to give the #4 heavyweight in the world a realistic chance at beating him.

Hell Adamek's resume at heavyweight is arguably better than David Haye's record at heavyweight.

I don't think Haye's resume is that impressive either but he's never fought an opponent as bad as Vinny Maddalone or Kevin Mcbride at heavy and crucially Valuev aside he has knocked ALL the others out.

Haye has power. I don't think he would beat Vitali either but at least he has enough power that they would have to respect him.

Adamek just does not have enough of anything to challenge Vitali and his recent opposition has been fucking horrible.

I will happily sig bet you that Vitali wins that fight easily. Adamek might have a couple decent rounds early but the writing will be on the wall as early as round 3 and by round 4 we will just be watching to see how many rounds he makes it through.

Either he kepts stopped late or he makes his way to a decision where he loses by at least 8 rounds. I'm happy to take that bet.

I'll sig bet you that Adamek at least goes the distance, just like I did with Lyle.

[Kev]

I'll sig bet you that Adamek at least goes the distance, just like I did with Lyle.

That's it? The extent of your confidence in him is that you think he will survive?

Kevin McBride went the distance, Matthew Hatton did with Alvarez, but they probably didn't win a round between them and certainly at no point looked like winning those fights.

Vitali is an older guy and will be happy I imagine to win all the rounds and breeze to a decision. I'm not saying that he will blow Adamek away, I'm saying Adamek has no realistic chance of victory.

If he goes the distance I won't be surprised, I think he's capable of surviving if that is his goal. Kevin Johnson managed that, so did Briggs, barely.

This is about his winning chances which I estimate at 6%. I'll bet you he doesn't win more than 4 rounds.

[CFH]

Can someone explain to me, using specifics, how a fighter like Adamek (who is a relatively mediocre heavyweight) could cause even a 40 year old Vitali Klitschko problems? I just don't see how it's possible. Adamek is too small, he has next to no power, he can't outjab Vitali, and he can't outbox him, and I think he's chinny as a HW. How can he win?

Well, here is what Adamek's people are thinking: Adamek uses the whole ring and moves a lot all around it. Adamek has practiced moving in and getting out against his heavyweight opponents while dancing around the ring for each round. He doesn't knock his heavyweight opponents down, but he throws more punches and lands more punches than they do on average each round. He'll try and make this a boring fight. He'll plan to box Vitali for 12 rounds and hope the giant loses a step in the middle to late rounds and then he can begin to win some of the rounds on points. I wouldn't be super surprised if he lost the fight in a 116-112 kind of manner.

I can see them thinking that if he runs all night he might survive to see the final bell. I can even see them thinking that he'll outland an old and quickly fading Vitali, but even if that's the case Vitali is going to land the more telling blows and control the center of the ring. It just don't see anything about Adamek that makes me think he can beat any of the big three at heavyweight. He'll, I'm not even sure he could beat Eddie Chambers.

[Kev]

Can someone explain to me, using specifics, how a fighter like Adamek (who is a relatively mediocre heavyweight) could cause even a 40 year old Vitali Klitschko problems? I just don't see how it's possible. Adamek is too small, he has next to no power, he can't outjab Vitali, and he can't outbox him, and I think he's chinny as a HW. How can he win?

Well, here is what Adamek's people are thinking: Adamek uses the whole ring and moves a lot all around it. Adamek has practiced moving in and getting out against his heavyweight opponents while dancing around the ring for each round. He doesn't knock his heavyweight opponents down, but he throws more punches and lands more punches than they do on average each round. He'll try and make this a boring fight. He'll plan to box Vitali for 12 rounds and hope the giant loses a step in the middle to late rounds and then he can begin to win some of the rounds on points. I wouldn't be super surprised if he lost the fight in a 116-112 kind of manner.

I can see them thinking that if he runs all night he might survive to see the final bell. I can even see them thinking that he'll outland an old and quickly fading Vitali, but even if that's the case Vitali is going to land the more telling blows and control the center of the ring. It just don't see anything about Adamek that makes me think he can beat any of the big three at heavyweight. He'll, I'm not even sure he could beat Eddie Chambers.

i'll say one thing for Adamek though, his fights aren't boring. A fight with Vitali wouldn't be boring either. Even though the outcome is assured it will still be an entertaining fight. I actually think it will be similar to Hatton Alvarez, a one sided fight but a spirited effort and he won't stink the place out at all. He will look pretty good imo, he just wont come even close to winning.

[CFH]

Can someone explain to me, using specifics, how a fighter like Adamek (who is a relatively mediocre heavyweight) could cause even a 40 year old Vitali Klitschko problems? I just don't see how it's possible. Adamek is too small, he has next to no power, he can't outjab Vitali, and he can't outbox him, and I think he's chinny as a HW. How can he win?

Well, here is what Adamek's people are thinking: Adamek uses the whole ring and moves a lot all around it. Adamek has practiced moving in and getting out against his heavyweight opponents while dancing around the ring for each round. He doesn't knock his heavyweight opponents down, but he throws more punches and lands more punches than they do on average each round. He'll try and make this a boring fight. He'll plan to box Vitali for 12 rounds and hope the giant loses a step in the middle to late rounds and then he can begin to win some of the rounds on points. I wouldn't be super surprised if he lost the fight in a 116-112 kind of manner.

I can see them thinking that if he runs all night he might survive to see the final bell. I can even see them thinking that he'll outland an old and quickly fading Vitali, but even if that's the case Vitali is going to land the more telling blows and control the center of the ring. It just don't see anything about Adamek that makes me think he can beat any of the big three at heavyweight. He'll, I'm not even sure he could beat Eddie Chambers.

i'll say one thing for Adamek though, his fights aren't boring. A fight with Vitali wouldn't be boring either. Even though the outcome is assured it will still be an entertaining fight. I actually think it will be similar to Hatton Alvarez, a one sided fight but a spirited effort and he won't stink the place out at all. He will look pretty good imo, he just wont come even close to winning.

I didn't find the Grant fight very entertaining, and to be honest I haven't found most of Adamek's HW fights (those I've seen, obviously) to be all that entertaining. They're interesting and I'm curious to see how well he'll do, but it's not like I'm on the edge of my seat the whole time.

[Hulk]

I'll sig bet you that Adamek at least goes the distance, just like I did with Lyle.

That's it? The extent of your confidence in him is that you think he will survive?

Kevin McBride went the distance, Matthew Hatton did with Alvarez, but they probably didn't win a round between them and certainly at no point looked like winning those fights.

Vitali is an older guy and will be happy I imagine to win all the rounds and breeze to a decision. I'm not saying that he will blow Adamek away, I'm saying Adamek has no realistic chance of victory.

If he goes the distance I won't be surprised, I think he's capable of surviving if that is his goal. Kevin Johnson managed that, so did Briggs, barely.

This is about his winning chances which I estimate at 6%. I'll bet you he doesn't win more than 4 rounds.

Okay you're on. I'll bet Adamek wins 4 rounds or more. Like I've said, over and over again I give Adamek a 30% chance of winning. Never said I picked him over Vitali, but I shall accept your challenge old hairy footed one.

[Rantcatrat]

Can someone explain to me, using specifics, how a fighter like Adamek (who is a relatively mediocre heavyweight) could cause even a 40 year old Vitali Klitschko problems? I just don't see how it's possible. Adamek is too small, he has next to no power, he can't outjab Vitali, and he can't outbox him, and I think he's chinny as a HW. How can he win?

Well, here is what Adamek's people are thinking: Adamek uses the whole ring and moves a lot all around it. Adamek has practiced moving in and getting out against his heavyweight opponents while dancing around the ring for each round. He doesn't knock his heavyweight opponents down, but he throws more punches and lands more punches than they do on average each round. He'll try and make this a boring fight. He'll plan to box Vitali for 12 rounds and hope the giant loses a step in the middle to late rounds and then he can begin to win some of the rounds on points. I wouldn't be super surprised if he lost the fight in a 116-112 kind of manner.

I can see them thinking that if he runs all night he might survive to see the final bell. I can even see them thinking that he'll outland an old and quickly fading Vitali, but even if that's the case Vitali is going to land the more telling blows and control the center of the ring. It just don't see anything about Adamek that makes me think he can beat any of the big three at heavyweight. He'll, I'm not even sure he could beat Eddie Chambers.

Alright I completely disagree with you there. Vitali and Wlad may be too big of a bite to chew for Adamek. Who are you considering #3? If it is Povetkin, I'd give Adamek a solid shot to win. If it is Haye, same. Remember: Adamek did more at cruiserweight than Haye did, and honestly, basically just as much at heavyweight or at least close.

[JazMerkin]

Alright I completely disagree with you there. Vitali and Wlad may be too big of a bite to chew for Adamek. Who are you considering #3? If it is Povetkin, I'd give Adamek a solid shot to win. If it is Haye, same. Remember: Adamek did more at cruiserweight than Haye did, and honestly, basically just as much at heavyweight or at least close.

I would sig bet that Haye KOs him in 8 rounds or less were they to fight. Adamek's advantages against other HWs (speed, skill) wouldn't be there against Haye. All he is more durable, but he doesn't have Haye's athleticism, & if nothing else Haye has a special kind of power. Apparently Adam Booth was chomping at the bit to get Haye in with Adamek because of how easy a fight he thought it was & I definitely agree. Not cause Adamek is bad, it's just at HW, he's a terrible match-up for Haye. His people probably know that Vitali's age & lack of movement make him the best of the beltholders for Adamek. He still will struggle to win a round.

[Rantcatrat]

Alright I completely disagree with you there. Vitali and Wlad may be too big of a bite to chew for Adamek. Who are you considering #3? If it is Povetkin, I'd give Adamek a solid shot to win. If it is Haye, same. Remember: Adamek did more at cruiserweight than Haye did, and honestly, basically just as much at heavyweight or at least close.

I would sig bet that Haye KOs him in 8 rounds or less were they to fight. Adamek's advantages against other HWs (speed, skill) wouldn't be there against Haye. All he is more durable, but he doesn't have Haye's athleticism, & if nothing else Haye has a special kind of power. Apparently Adam Booth was chomping at the bit to get Haye in with Adamek because of how easy a fight he thought it was & I definitely agree. Not cause Adamek is bad, it's just at HW, he's a terrible match-up for Haye. His people probably know that Vitali's age & lack of movement make him the best of the beltholders for Adamek. He still will struggle to win a round.

Won't sigbet on that because Haye should be favored going into that fight. But, I don't believe the disparity in talent is as wide as you do. I also believe Adamek has done more with his career than Haye has. Haye picked the perfect heavyweights to fight so far just like Adamek has. Adamek would have beat Ruiz and Valuev too. To me, and I know a lot of people on this board disagree, but I believe at heavyweight, it is Wlad and Vitali, then the rest. That was my point in that last post. Povetkin, Haye, and Adamek are the next group, and then there's the Tony Thompson's etc.

[JazMerkin]

Alright I completely disagree with you there. Vitali and Wlad may be too big of a bite to chew for Adamek. Who are you considering #3? If it is Povetkin, I'd give Adamek a solid shot to win. If it is Haye, same. Remember: Adamek did more at cruiserweight than Haye did, and honestly, basically just as much at heavyweight or at least close.

I would sig bet that Haye KOs him in 8 rounds or less were they to fight. Adamek's advantages against other HWs (speed, skill) wouldn't be there against Haye. All he is more durable, but he doesn't have Haye's athleticism, & if nothing else Haye has a special kind of power. Apparently Adam Booth was chomping at the bit to get Haye in with Adamek because of how easy a fight he thought it was & I definitely agree. Not cause Adamek is bad, it's just at HW, he's a terrible match-up for Haye. His people probably know that Vitali's age & lack of movement make him the best of the beltholders for Adamek. He still will struggle to win a round.

Won't sigbet on that because Haye should be favored going into that fight. But, I don't believe the disparity in talent is as wide as you do. I also believe Adamek has done more with his career than Haye has. Haye picked the perfect heavyweights to fight so far just like Adamek has. Adamek would have beat Ruiz and Valuev too. To me, and I know a lot of people on this board disagree, but I believe at heavyweight, it is Wlad and Vitali, then the rest. That was my point in that last post. Povetkin, Haye, and Adamek are the next group, and then there's the Tony Thompson's etc.

I'd be tempted to agree with the part in bold, but the difference is that I feel Haye is just a weight-class bigger naturally. Adamek was a big LHW who became the best at CW. Haye was a big CW (also The Man at the weight) who has become a quality HW.

Like I said earlier, I feel Haye is quicker, stronger & the better boxer. Adamek is more durable & I reckon has a better chin, but I think Haye is all wrong for him. I also think the Klitschkos are definitely better, but the fact is I believe Haye 'could' (not would or is likely to) beat both. I don't think Adamek could beat either. Let's say that fight gets made, I'll sigbet that Haye has him out of there in 8. If Adamek wins or even lasts longer, then I lose

[CFH]

Can someone explain to me, using specifics, how a fighter like Adamek (who is a relatively mediocre heavyweight) could cause even a 40 year old Vitali Klitschko problems? I just don't see how it's possible. Adamek is too small, he has next to no power, he can't outjab Vitali, and he can't outbox him, and I think he's chinny as a HW. How can he win?

Well, here is what Adamek's people are thinking: Adamek uses the whole ring and moves a lot all around it. Adamek has practiced moving in and getting out against his heavyweight opponents while dancing around the ring for each round. He doesn't knock his heavyweight opponents down, but he throws more punches and lands more punches than they do on average each round. He'll try and make this a boring fight. He'll plan to box Vitali for 12 rounds and hope the giant loses a step in the middle to late rounds and then he can begin to win some of the rounds on points. I wouldn't be super surprised if he lost the fight in a 116-112 kind of manner.

I can see them thinking that if he runs all night he might survive to see the final bell. I can even see them thinking that he'll outland an old and quickly fading Vitali, but even if that's the case Vitali is going to land the more telling blows and control the center of the ring. It just don't see anything about Adamek that makes me think he can beat any of the big three at heavyweight. He'll, I'm not even sure he could beat Eddie Chambers.

Alright I completely disagree with you there. Vitali and Wlad may be too big of a bite to chew for Adamek. Who are you considering #3? If it is Povetkin, I'd give Adamek a solid shot to win. If it is Haye, same. Remember: Adamek did more at cruiserweight than Haye did, and honestly, basically just as much at heavyweight or at least close.

I was referring to Haye as the third guy. He might not have accomplished as much as Adamek, but - like Jaz says - his skillset neutralizes Adamek's advantages and he's a much better athlete. I don't think Adamek sees the final bell if they fight.

[Rantcatrat]

Alright I completely disagree with you there. Vitali and Wlad may be too big of a bite to chew for Adamek. Who are you considering #3? If it is Povetkin, I'd give Adamek a solid shot to win. If it is Haye, same. Remember: Adamek did more at cruiserweight than Haye did, and honestly, basically just as much at heavyweight or at least close.

I would sig bet that Haye KOs him in 8 rounds or less were they to fight. Adamek's advantages against other HWs (speed, skill) wouldn't be there against Haye. All he is more durable, but he doesn't have Haye's athleticism, & if nothing else Haye has a special kind of power. Apparently Adam Booth was chomping at the bit to get Haye in with Adamek because of how easy a fight he thought it was & I definitely agree. Not cause Adamek is bad, it's just at HW, he's a terrible match-up for Haye. His people probably know that Vitali's age & lack of movement make him the best of the beltholders for Adamek. He still will struggle to win a round.

Won't sigbet on that because Haye should be favored going into that fight. But, I don't believe the disparity in talent is as wide as you do. I also believe Adamek has done more with his career than Haye has. Haye picked the perfect heavyweights to fight so far just like Adamek has. Adamek would have beat Ruiz and Valuev too. To me, and I know a lot of people on this board disagree, but I believe at heavyweight, it is Wlad and Vitali, then the rest. That was my point in that last post. Povetkin, Haye, and Adamek are the next group, and then there's the Tony Thompson's etc.

I'd be tempted to agree with the part in bold, but the difference is that I feel Haye is just a weight-class bigger naturally. Adamek was a big LHW who became the best at CW. Haye was a big CW (also The Man at the weight) who has become a quality HW.

Like I said earlier, I feel Haye is quicker, stronger & the better boxer. Adamek is more durable & I reckon has a better chin, but I think Haye is all wrong for him. I also think the Klitschkos are definitely better, but the fact is I believe Haye 'could' (not would or is likely to) beat both. I don't think Adamek could beat either. Let's say that fight gets made, I'll sigbet that Haye has him out of there in 8. If Adamek wins or even lasts longer, then I lose

Alright. Let me think about it. A lot is possible in between the fight. If Haye is clobbered and demoralized by Wlad, we may never see him in a ring again; he has, lest we forget, claimed he is retiring soon. Same goes for Adamek.

One more thing about Adamek and Vitali. Isn't the fight planned to be at this new stadium in Warsaw? Maybe he'll take a few rounds on the cards as a result. Just sayin'.

How do you feel about Povetkin and Haye. See that is a match that I think is very even at least with Povetkin on a good day because Povetkin has a chin and Haye doesn't.

[badr_hari]

Haye and Adamek have very hard fights against the Klitschko's next. A loss will probably mean end of career for both of them, so don't even expect to see a clash between these two EVER.

How do you feel about Povetkin and Haye. See that is a match that I think is very even at least with Povetkin on a good day because Povetkin has a chin and Haye doesn't.

Povetkin is better than both, Haye and Adamek.