Calzaghe's win over B-Hop looks better all the time.......

[Violent Demise]

Again 1 of the few times I agree with Miles. People likes to shit all over JC's resume when B-Hops resume isn't all that sterling either. JC gets bashed for fighting old guys like RJJ and B-Hop, but B-Hop gets excused for beating up blownup Welterweights like Oscar and Tito or other smaller men like Pavlik, Wright, etc.

And now trying to use Sven Ottke as if the guy was some beast that JC avoided? That's like saying Pac and Mayweather are avoiding Jan Zaveck.

Calzaghe once said Ottke wouldn't make it past 5 against him. Said Woodhall and Reid were tougher. One of the reasons Ottke-Calzaghe doesn't happen is cuz Calzaghe didn't want to fight in Germany. Said he didn't want to get robbed. Why is that even a concern? The man won't make it past 5 against you? All of a sudden your worried about the judges?

Side-note: Calzaghe would go into Germany a couple of years later for a meaningless rematch against Mario Veit. A fighter he had previously stopped in 1

[marbleheadmaui]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

So who are you suggesting Calzaghe should have fought at 168 during his tenure as division chief?

Ottke, Liles, Jones, Nunn, Echols off the top of my head. Look, the notion that you cleaned out a division when there is another unbeaten guy 300 miles away is sort of silly.

And before the excuse making starts? I don't care. One either fights the fights or one doesn't.

Otke wouldn't go near Calzaghe, Jones Jr was a LHW all the time Calzaghe was a SMW, likewise Nunn was a CW/LHW. The Echols fight could have come off, but he was pretty much done by the time he reached SMW.

You are looking for holes that don't exist. Calzaghe kept his division clean just as Hopkins did, it's just that Calzaghes biggest wins were not against LMW's moving up.

LOL and the excuses begin! Ottke and Calzaghe were in the same division for what? nearly a decade? Nunn was in the division for three years when Calzaghe was, BTW, Nunn was middleweight champ, Echols was ranked in the top five in 2002, 2003 and 2004. Liles was ranked in the top five in 1997-1998.

The comparisons aren't even close.

So, you blame Calzaghe because one man doesn't want to fight? Do you realistically think a fighter like Ottke would even have a chance? Nunn was in the division whilst Calzaghe was a fledgling pro. How could they have fought? When Calzaghe was established Nunn was long gone. Echols had been stopped by Hopkins, was he now suddenly in line to face Calzaghe? Look at who Echols fought and beat in the years you mentioned, I really don't see why he would have been on the radar. Liles? Too long ago and clearly never one to remember.

The comparisons are close and it's a valid point that Hopkins two biggest wins were over smaller guys moving up from JMW. And let's not forget that the same pattern of calling out smaller men continued after beating Tarver. Wright and Pavlik were called up two divisions and Calzaghe himself was a man moving up for the first time.

I don't BLAME anybody for anything. Jones, Liles, Ottke, Nunn, Echols etc all have the gap of not facing Calzaghe on their resume as well. Do I think Ottke had a chance? I dunno. How about we ask Buster Douglas, Kirkland Laing, The Ragamuffin Man, Randy Turpin, Jorge Arce, Jimmy Braddock, Max Schmeling, Joe Walcott, Muhammad Ali, George Foreman, Vince Phillips, Hasim Rahman, Corrie Sanders and Carlos Baldomir for starters

When one guy wipes out a division so thoroughly one cannot come up with a single credible name they didn't fight and the other guy has five guys that can be named?

Those are NOT remotely the same thing.

[Gandalf]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

So who are you suggesting Calzaghe should have fought at 168 during his tenure as division chief?

Ottke, Liles, Jones, Nunn, Echols off the top of my head. Look, the notion that you cleaned out a division when there is another unbeaten guy 300 miles away is sort of silly.

And before the excuse making starts? I don't care. One either fights the fights or one doesn't.

Otke wouldn't go near Calzaghe, Jones Jr was a LHW all the time Calzaghe was a SMW, likewise Nunn was a CW/LHW. The Echols fight could have come off, but he was pretty much done by the time he reached SMW.

You are looking for holes that don't exist. Calzaghe kept his division clean just as Hopkins did, it's just that Calzaghes biggest wins were not against LMW's moving up.

LOL and the excuses begin! Ottke and Calzaghe were in the same division for what? nearly a decade? Nunn was in the division for three years when Calzaghe was, BTW, Nunn was middleweight champ, Echols was ranked in the top five in 2002, 2003 and 2004. Liles was ranked in the top five in 1997-1998.

The comparisons aren't even close.

So, you blame Calzaghe because one man doesn't want to fight? Do you realistically think a fighter like Ottke would even have a chance? Nunn was in the division whilst Calzaghe was a fledgling pro. How could they have fought? When Calzaghe was established Nunn was long gone. Echols had been stopped by Hopkins, was he now suddenly in line to face Calzaghe? Look at who Echols fought and beat in the years you mentioned, I really don't see why he would have been on the radar. Liles? Too long ago and clearly never one to remember.

The comparisons are close and it's a valid point that Hopkins two biggest wins were over smaller guys moving up from JMW. And let's not forget that the same pattern of calling out smaller men continued after beating Tarver. Wright and Pavlik were called up two divisions and Calzaghe himself was a man moving up for the first time.

I don't BLAME anybody for anything. Jones, Liles, Ottke, Nunn, Echols etc all have the gap of not facing Calzaghe on their resume as well. When one guy wipes out a division so thoroughly one cannot come up with a single credible name they didn't fight and the other guy has five guys that can be named?

Those are NOT remotely the same thing.

Long time belt holder in a relatively weak division. Calzaghe + Hopkins = Similar tenure as long time kingpins of a weak division.

The only half way credible name you have managed to draw is Ottke and he wouldn't travel and only beat people in dodgy points decisions. The other fighters are either meaningless or else impossible. You are scratching around trying to downplay Calzaghe's time at SMW, but at the same time the same kinds of arguments can EASILY be made about Hopkins too.

Obviously Hopkins went out of his to duck James Toney and clearly avoided Mike McCallum. It's just silly.

[marbleheadmaui]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

So who are you suggesting Calzaghe should have fought at 168 during his tenure as division chief?

Ottke, Liles, Jones, Nunn, Echols off the top of my head. Look, the notion that you cleaned out a division when there is another unbeaten guy 300 miles away is sort of silly.

And before the excuse making starts? I don't care. One either fights the fights or one doesn't.

Otke wouldn't go near Calzaghe, Jones Jr was a LHW all the time Calzaghe was a SMW, likewise Nunn was a CW/LHW. The Echols fight could have come off, but he was pretty much done by the time he reached SMW.

You are looking for holes that don't exist. Calzaghe kept his division clean just as Hopkins did, it's just that Calzaghes biggest wins were not against LMW's moving up.

LOL and the excuses begin! Ottke and Calzaghe were in the same division for what? nearly a decade? Nunn was in the division for three years when Calzaghe was, BTW, Nunn was middleweight champ, Echols was ranked in the top five in 2002, 2003 and 2004. Liles was ranked in the top five in 1997-1998.

The comparisons aren't even close.

So, you blame Calzaghe because one man doesn't want to fight? Do you realistically think a fighter like Ottke would even have a chance? Nunn was in the division whilst Calzaghe was a fledgling pro. How could they have fought? When Calzaghe was established Nunn was long gone. Echols had been stopped by Hopkins, was he now suddenly in line to face Calzaghe? Look at who Echols fought and beat in the years you mentioned, I really don't see why he would have been on the radar. Liles? Too long ago and clearly never one to remember.

The comparisons are close and it's a valid point that Hopkins two biggest wins were over smaller guys moving up from JMW. And let's not forget that the same pattern of calling out smaller men continued after beating Tarver. Wright and Pavlik were called up two divisions and Calzaghe himself was a man moving up for the first time.

I don't BLAME anybody for anything. Jones, Liles, Ottke, Nunn, Echols etc all have the gap of not facing Calzaghe on their resume as well. When one guy wipes out a division so thoroughly one cannot come up with a single credible name they didn't fight and the other guy has five guys that can be named?

Those are NOT remotely the same thing.

Long time belt holder in a relatively weak division. Calzaghe + Hopkins = Similar tenure as long time kingpins of a weak division.

The only half way credible name you have managed to draw is Ottke and he wouldn't travel and only beat people in dodgy points decisions. The other fighters are either meaningless or else impossible. You are scratching around trying to downplay Calzaghe's time at SMW, but at the same time the same kinds of arguments can EASILY be made about Hopkins too.

Obviously Hopkins went out of his to duck James Toney and clearly avoided Mike McCallum. It's just silly.

Yeah, Nunn (ranked in the division for three years while Calzaghe was there) a real reach, Liles (two years) a real reach, Ottke (a decade) a real reach, Echols (three years) a real reach.

Toney had gone to 168 by the end of 1992. McCallum moved up even before then.

Sheesh. Dance all you want, data is data.

[Gandalf]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

So who are you suggesting Calzaghe should have fought at 168 during his tenure as division chief?

Ottke, Liles, Jones, Nunn, Echols off the top of my head. Look, the notion that you cleaned out a division when there is another unbeaten guy 300 miles away is sort of silly.

And before the excuse making starts? I don't care. One either fights the fights or one doesn't.

Otke wouldn't go near Calzaghe, Jones Jr was a LHW all the time Calzaghe was a SMW, likewise Nunn was a CW/LHW. The Echols fight could have come off, but he was pretty much done by the time he reached SMW.

You are looking for holes that don't exist. Calzaghe kept his division clean just as Hopkins did, it's just that Calzaghes biggest wins were not against LMW's moving up.

LOL and the excuses begin! Ottke and Calzaghe were in the same division for what? nearly a decade? Nunn was in the division for three years when Calzaghe was, BTW, Nunn was middleweight champ, Echols was ranked in the top five in 2002, 2003 and 2004. Liles was ranked in the top five in 1997-1998.

The comparisons aren't even close.

So, you blame Calzaghe because one man doesn't want to fight? Do you realistically think a fighter like Ottke would even have a chance? Nunn was in the division whilst Calzaghe was a fledgling pro. How could they have fought? When Calzaghe was established Nunn was long gone. Echols had been stopped by Hopkins, was he now suddenly in line to face Calzaghe? Look at who Echols fought and beat in the years you mentioned, I really don't see why he would have been on the radar. Liles? Too long ago and clearly never one to remember.

The comparisons are close and it's a valid point that Hopkins two biggest wins were over smaller guys moving up from JMW. And let's not forget that the same pattern of calling out smaller men continued after beating Tarver. Wright and Pavlik were called up two divisions and Calzaghe himself was a man moving up for the first time.

I don't BLAME anybody for anything. Jones, Liles, Ottke, Nunn, Echols etc all have the gap of not facing Calzaghe on their resume as well. When one guy wipes out a division so thoroughly one cannot come up with a single credible name they didn't fight and the other guy has five guys that can be named?

Those are NOT remotely the same thing.

Long time belt holder in a relatively weak division. Calzaghe + Hopkins = Similar tenure as long time kingpins of a weak division.

The only half way credible name you have managed to draw is Ottke and he wouldn't travel and only beat people in dodgy points decisions. The other fighters are either meaningless or else impossible. You are scratching around trying to downplay Calzaghe's time at SMW, but at the same time the same kinds of arguments can EASILY be made about Hopkins too.

Obviously Hopkins went out of his to duck James Toney and clearly avoided Mike McCallum. It's just silly.

Yeah, Nunn (ranked in the division for three years while Calzaghe was there) a real reach, Liles (two years) a real reach, Ottke (a decade) a real reach, Echols (three years) a real reach.

Toney had gone to 168 by the end of 1992. McCallum moved up even before then.

Sheesh. Dance all you want, data is data.

Haha, I was using those two examples as a way of mocking you. Nunn? Liles? Echols? That is la la land talk. As I say, impossible or else unknown. I have explained why and you just keep repeating their names. Take Nunn for instance, when was Calzaghe supposed to fight him? Nunn was gone from the division after Calzaghe's 5th pro fight!

Both of my suggestions were impossible ones to put your own extreme reaching into perspective. I give you Ottke though, it's a shame Calzaghe didn't beat on him.

[ICB]

Michael Nunn in his prime when he was beating up Frank Tate, Sumbu Kalambay, Juan Roldan, would of been a heck of a challenge for Joe Calzaghe. But when Joe Calzaghe was champion in 1997, Michael Nunn was on the downslide.

But he could of never of fought Joe Calzaghe anyway, he moved up in weight and his last fight at Super Middleweight. Was a razor thin close decision against John Scully.

The only way Joe Calzaghe could of fought better opposition, was either be born in a different era or he could of moved up.

[Majesty]

Joe Calzaghe was in his late 30s and 38 or so fights when he retired.


Andre Ward at the age of 27 in under 25 fights is on his way to building a better resume than Joe Calzaghe at super middleweight.

In 7 years Andre Ward has accomplished nearly as much if not more at Super Middleweight than Joe Calzaghe accomplished in 15 years at Super Middleweight and dismantled Mikkell Kessler who was the most skilled fighter at 168 even easier than Calzaghe did in his 21st fight.

Say what you will about how good Hopkins winning makes Calzaghe look. But the fact of the matter is Andre Ward is on the verge of putting himself ahead of Calzaghe in terms of history and resume before his 30th Birthday, or even before his 30th fight.

So say what you will about Calzaghe now, but there's someone in his division already close to eclipsing his accomplishments and biggest 'wins'.

The same cannot, and will not ever, be said of Hopkins. Especially not less than 2 years after he retires

And if Ward beats Froch.. then there is no question really who has the better Super Middleweight resume.

Actually to be honest, lets say Ward beats Froch(or Johnson) and Bute two fights he is extremely capable of winning. I have a feeling Calzaghe would come "out of retirement" and try to make a comeback fighting Ward. if the stories about the money he crapped away are true, then I can see it happening.

[Mr140]

Could also say that ward is picking up on peoples left overs lest see him make as many defenses as Calzaghe before we say he going to sure pass him. Also to go 46 and be undefeated is pretty hard to the smw is packed right now and middle wasn't even packed when Hopkins fought there.

[generalbulldog]

We're talking about the Michael Nunn that fought Toney right? Michael Nunn - Boxer

So how was Calzaghe suppose to fight him when he was gone from the division when JC was starting out his pro career?

And when Calzaghe was ranked as a SMW, Nunn was ranked as a LHW. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1998 - Boxrec Boxing Encyclopaedia

Someone here is reaching.

[erics44]

Calzaghe once said Ottke wouldn't make it past 5 against him. Said Woodhall and Reid were tougher. One of the reasons Ottke-Calzaghe doesn't happen is cuz Calzaghe didn't want to fight in Germany. Said he didn't want to get robbed. Why is that even a concern? The man won't make it past 5 against you? All of a sudden your worried about the judges?

Side-note: Calzaghe would go into Germany a couple of years later for a meaningless rematch against Mario Veit. A fighter he had previously stopped in 1

are you saying ottke would have beaten calzaghi?

[Gandalf]

Could also say that ward is picking up on peoples left overs lest see him make as many defenses as Calzaghe before we say he going to sure pass him. Also to go 46 and be undefeated is pretty hard to the smw is packed right now and middle wasn't even packed when Hopkins fought there.

I would also argue the point that Andre Ward has nothing to do with this thread. Just seems like a smug way for Majesty to say that Ward has been fortunate enough to be in a division with a number of decent fighters. Has Kessler really been the same since Calzaghe? Plus Ward had to foul him to death to get the win too. Bika? Another easy Calzaghe left over. There is nobody on Wards resume that Calzaghe wouldn't have beaten and in far more impressive style too.

[Majesty]

Could also say that ward is picking up on peoples left overs lest see him make as many defenses as Calzaghe before we say he going to sure pass him. Also to go 46 and be undefeated is pretty hard to the smw is packed right now and middle wasn't even packed when Hopkins fought there.

I would also argue the point that Andre Ward has nothing to do with this thread. Just seems like a smug way for Majesty to say that Ward has been fortunate enough to be in a division with a number of decent fighters. Has Kessler really been the same since Calzaghe? Plus Ward had to foul him to death to get the win too. Bika? Another easy Calzaghe left over. There is nobody on Wards resume that Calzaghe wouldn't have beaten and in far more impressive style too.

Kessler had enough to beat Froch didn't he, and before you complain about the fouls, Kessler had already lost every round to Ward before the serious headbutts and cut. So that isn't the reason he lost, you shouldn't hold onto that for so long. Ward was/is just the better fighter than Kessler. Ward didn't have to foul his way to victory, he was already easily beating him before the huge fouls happened.

Mr140 said that he would like to see Ward have as many defenses as Calzaghe did at Super Middleweight before being on par, but then downplayed Hopkins Middleweight accomplishment by saying Middleweight wasn't packed when Hopkins was defending. So why give more of a credit to Joe when Super Middleweight wasn't exactly bombing either at the time.

Ward is fortunate enough to be in a division with a number of decent fighters, but he's also been fortunate enough to dominate them all as well.

Point is there is a boxer one can argue is about 2 or 3 fights away from having a better Super Middleweight resume than Calzaghe, and so soon after his retirement. You say there isn't any names on Ward's resume that Calzaghe wouldn't have beaten easier. Is there anyone really on Calzaghe's resume especially when he fought some of those names with the exception of Hopkins that would have given Ward a lot of trouble? His four biggest wins, are Kessler, Lacy, Jones and Hopkins.

After seeing Roy this weekend there's no doubt he should have got out long ago.
Think Lacy would trouble Ward?
Ward beat Kessler easily and was winning easily before the big fouls took place. it was Kessler's style and lack of ability to have a plan B that lost him the Ward fight(same thing that lost him the Calzaghe fight though it took Joe longer to figure him out)
Hopkins would give Ward issues as he would give anyone issues.

Of the four biggest wins of Calzaghe's career, only Hopkins would trouble Ward if we look at the times that Calzaghe fought them.

But when it comes to Hopkins, no one is gonna be saying that about a "hopkins successor" in a long long time. So my point is that while people say Calzaghe's win over B-Hop looks better every day. if you look at where history is gonna place them, Calzaghe's reign and resume is already in danger, whereas Hopkins' will be untouched for a very long time, you can't compare the two or try to use Calzaghe's win to jumpstart over what Hopkins has done and is doing.

[Fenster]

Check this out for pure nerdness. In Hopkins last 9 fights he landed LESS on Calzaghe than any other fighter ( for the record - Calzaghe hit him more than any othr fighter too).

This is Hopkins punches landed.

Hopkins - Taylor 130/317 (35%)
Hopkins - Tarver 133/417 (32%)
Hopkins - Winky 152/640 (24%)
Hopkins - Calza 127/468 (27%)
Hopkins - Pavlik 172/530 (32%)
Hopkins - Ornel 205/497 (41%)
Hopkins - Jones 185/526 (35%)
Hopkins - Pascal 171/445 (38%)
Hopkins - Pascal 131/409 (32%)

Fact.

now tally up how many of those "shots" that Calzaghe "landed" were on the gloves and arms

and then add up how many shots B-Hop landed flush

the only thing you can applaud White Nose Joe on in that fight is that he finally gained the courage to come out the closet and grind up on Hopkins

My figures show Hopkins success rate against his last nine opponents. They have nothing to do with how many times he was hit.

I counted Hopkins landing around 7 solid righthands in that video. The actual punch-stats show that he landed 127 punches. So Hopkins landed 120 non-flush punches. Your video shows Hopkins did worse than I thought. Damn...

I'm just providing the stats. Don't shoot the statman. Fact.

[Fenster]

Check this out for pure nerdness. In Hopkins last 9 fights he landed LESS on Calzaghe than any other fighter ( for the record - Calzaghe hit him more than any othr fighter too).

This is Hopkins punches landed.

Hopkins - Taylor 130/317 (35%)
Hopkins - Tarver 133/417 (32%)
Hopkins - Winky 152/640 (24%)
Hopkins - Calza 127/468 (27%)
Hopkins - Pavlik 172/530 (32%)
Hopkins - Ornel 205/497 (41%)
Hopkins - Jones 185/526 (35%)
Hopkins - Pascal 171/445 (38%)
Hopkins - Pascal 131/409 (32%)

Fact.

A staggering 4 punch diff between the 2nd Pascal fight and Calzaghe...

Mickey, mickey, mickey...

1. Hopkins threw 59 more shots against Calzaghe but landed less. Which clearly shows Calzaghe's superior defense/ring craft to Pascal.

2. Punches landed - Pascal landed 70/377 (19%). Calzaghe landed 232/707 (33%). This clearly shows Calzaghe's superior offence/ring craft to Pascal.

3. What do the figures suggest? That's right, Hopkins beat Pascal comfortably. Hopkins LOST against Calzaghe.

I'm just providing the stats. Fact.

[Fenster]

Yep thats gotta be his best win, out of the 3-4 good fighters he's faced in 46 fights.

You're right Calzaghe should have played it like B-Hop, beat up blownup Welterweights to make a name for himself early in his career.

You can argue who won the fight, but that whiteboy didn't make it easy for B-Hop. THis whole B-Hop won 4 or 5 more rounds is ridiculous.

and Calzaghe made his name beating up on has beens (Jones and Eubank) pretenders (Sheika, Bika and Manfredo Jr), or given gift decisions (Hopkins and Reid), his only stand out non controversial wins that deserve any real praise are his wins against Kessler and Lacey

as always it works both ways

Yes it goes both ways homey. The same people shitting on JC, his resume, and fighting ability, mysteriously excuse Hopkins for everything else.

Here is one major difference. BHOP really did wreck the middles from 1994-2004 didn't he? Was there any obvious guy he didn't face? With JC at 168 the story just isn't the same.

Here is another major difference. Hopkins didn't leave America for one single fight during that period. Between 1994 and 2004 he fought 18 opponents. 16 were American based. 1 was Canadian. So the only guy travelling from outside North America was - Hakkar. An average French alphabet ranked no.1 contender.

Calzaghe lived in Britain.
Ottke lived in Germany.
Liles/Nunn/Echols lived in America (these are pretty poor choices really).

It's blatantly obvious that matching fighters from different countries is far more problematic than when everyone is operating in the same place. Especially when these fighters are posing as "world" champion with their different pieces of alphabet.

It's fine to say no excuses these guys should have met. But it's clearly not that simple.