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Went down this road far two many times over many years and in the end it’s subjective.
I will say this though to the author of this thread. The A beat C and C beat B therefore A beats B premise does not work in boxing. In fact, it’s pretzel logic.
Since the structure of your argument is based on that false fact then all the conclusions you claim as fact throughout are also false or should I say not a fact.
Xept of d little fact that i make d distinction between a stoppage win and a robbery loss that should have been either a draw or a decision win , and some other major facts .
You are biasly defending Ramirez and no way was he an elite fighter Eric Morales who won the title against Zaragoza (who had just beaten Wayne McCullough so was not past his prime), Barrera (in a ATG fight), Jones, Kelly, In Jin Chin, etcQuote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank
Jose Luis Ramirez stopped Edwin Rosario and since i watched their 1st fight as well i can tell u that he didn;t lose that 1 either .Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterJose Luis Ramirez and Jose Luis Lopez were not better than Morales. Eric was an elite fighter these two were clearly not.Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrankI can't rank him above any of : Salvador Sanchez , Julio Cesar Chavez .Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I also think that both of d Jose Luis were better (Ramirez and Lopez) and despite I can bare ranking Morales above Marquez , I don't think like it .
So how and Y should i have rated Morales higher ? I ranked him above popular picks such as Olivares , Zarate , Saldivar and Ricardo Lopez . I also ranked him above Barera , despite Barera fighting Marquez and Hamed whereas Morales did not .
Ramirez loss 2 Chavez was by Technical decision due 2 Chavez' butting of him and although Chavez was ahead on points he was younger so it was Xpected and u don't know how it would've ended if d butting did not occur . Ramirez while clearly past his prime rightfully deserved d decision against Pernell Whitaker which is considered a robbery by most since they haven't watched it from start 2 finish @ original speed like i did .
Whitaker did nothing Xcept from retreating and escaping .
Ramirez also deserved d decision over Alexis Arguello , 99:98 was d least i could score it in favor of Ramirez .
I think that winning against Rosario , Whitaker and Arguello and going d distance with Camacho , Rosario and most probably with Chavez if it wasn't 4 d headbutt and then also Juan Martin Coggi surpasses 3 close fights with Barera , a KO over a probably drained Junior Jones and a decision over Kevin Kelley . Morales' close decision over Pacquiao was well reversed by 2 stoppage losses 2 him and got overrated .
Zaragoza was 42 years old by d time Morales stopped him . U claim that he was prime by then . George Foreman was even older (and n odd Xample 2 n older fighter winning a title @ such age) when he KOd Moorer . Was Foreman prime against Holyfield , 3 years prior 2 KOing Moorer and becoming "d champion" ? According 2u , he must have been , since it was years prior 2 him winning a title , or does 42 years old Foreman count as 2 green because of it ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ramirez' record consists of d best available 2 fight .
compare Chavez , Whitaker*2 , Rosario*2 , Camacho , Arguello , Mancini with Pacquiao*3 , Barera*3 , Junior Jones and tell me who were d tougher opponents as a whole .
Regarding Lopez look @ who he fought : Isufu Quartey , Aaron Davis , James Page and Luis Ramon Campas 4 what he's worth (i think Campas simply couldn't get d mediocre opponents 2 pad his record with and 2 get quality Xperience against , it was d hard way 4 him and bums in between . Also some of Campas' stoppage losses during his prime and a little past it were due 2 cuts which is less telling)
I was making a point that Zaragoza beat a vibrant McCullough just the fight before so he was not way past his best.
I left out Lopez deliberately he was a good fighter who under achieved. Quartey beat him with the jab and Page did too.
u did initially xplicitly claim that Morales was n elite fighter whereas Lopez was not . I forgot 2 give d reply about it (him) in my initial reply 4 that post .Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Lopez owned Page's S but got robbed . At times it made me wonder how they let that fight continue .
As 4 Quartey i haven't seen that fight yet , but 2-0 KDs while not getting awarded a victory reads like a robbery , even if i happened 2c worse robberies .
i haven't watched Zaragoza vs McCullough yet and don't know d story behind it , but i haven't seen a 42 years old man who could b even regarded as close 2 prime . I did read however that Zaragosa liked 2 party , which is 1 of d known prime shorteners .
Quartey was easily beating Lopez every round but had a couple of knock downs to make it close. I like Lopez, he beat one of my favourite fighters in Campus as you mentioned.
Seriously you are over estimating Lopez and Ramirez compared to Morales.
Morales got badly stopped twice . Lopez put formidable fighters in survival mode and look again @ who he fought : Quartey , Page , Davis . Morales' best opponents except from McCullough were destroyed b4 he fought them : Pacquiao , Barera & Junior Jones .
Whereas Jones & Barera in their 3rd fight at least , if not in d 2nd as well were clearly past their prime .
And i m not 1 of those who consider primes as being arbitrarily 2 years long .
Aaron Davis was also past his prime when Lopez beat him but retired unstopped as opposed 2 Barera , Jones & Pacquiao so it means something .
1. Manny Pacquiao - 4 Lineal (112,126,130,140), 2 legit belts ( 122,147), 2 Paper titles
2. Pancho Villa ( Francisco Guilledo) - Voted as Flyweight of the Century
3. Gabriel 'Flash Elorde - Undefeated @130 for 7 yrs, 20 defenses in all, 1 titlist per division
4. Luisito Espinosa - 2 Division ( 126, 118 9 defenses in all )
5. Nonito Donairre - 3 Division ( 112, 118, 122)
6. Gerry Penalosa - 2 Division ( 118,122)
7. Ben Villaflor - 2 time champion 6 defenses
8. Dodie Boy Penalosa - 2 Division ( 108, 112 )
9. Donnie Nietes 2 Division - 105 5 defenses, 108
10. Brian Villoria - 2 Division ( 108, 112 )
Morales was well passed it when he was stopped, and he's become the ONLY Mexican 4 division champ (even if you don't want to count his title at 140, he was blatantly robbed against Diaz at 135), it's all about resume and his resume is better than both Ramirez and Lopez, and for the record no way in hell did Ramirez beat Whitaker in their first fight in France, I have the original recording of the fight and Whitaker dominated, Ramirez won the fight cause he was the crowd favorite due to the fact that he was living in France at the time of the fightQuote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank
I watched it twice and Whitaker did not dominate anything but d running contest . How is constantly avoiding contact , doing no damage and always giving ground can b called a domination is a mystery 2 me . Ramirez deserved 2 win .Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesMorales was well passed it when he was stopped, and he's become the ONLY Mexican 4 division champ (even if you don't want to count his title at 140, he was blatantly robbed against Diaz at 135), it's all about resume and his resume is better than both Ramirez and Lopez, and for the record no way in hell did Ramirez beat Whitaker in their first fight in France, I have the original recording of the fight and Whitaker dominated, Ramirez won the fight cause he was the crowd favorite due to the fact that he was living in France at the time of the fightQuote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank
how does flailing your arms around and hitting nothing but air make you the winner, that's all Ramirez didQuote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrankI watched it twice and Whitaker did not dominate anything but d running contest . How is constantly avoiding contact , doing no damage and always giving ground can b called a domination is a mystery 2 me . Ramirez deserved 2 win .Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesMorales was well passed it when he was stopped, and he's become the ONLY Mexican 4 division champ (even if you don't want to count his title at 140, he was blatantly robbed against Diaz at 135), it's all about resume and his resume is better than both Ramirez and Lopez, and for the record no way in hell did Ramirez beat Whitaker in their first fight in France, I have the original recording of the fight and Whitaker dominated, Ramirez won the fight cause he was the crowd favorite due to the fact that he was living in France at the time of the fightQuote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank
Ramirez came forward and was still being hit with jabs on the back foot, then Whitaker would get into the inside and bang the body and counters
i don't remember him getting hit with anything , especially if u refer 2 their 1st fight .Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleshow does flailing your arms around and hitting nothing but air make you the winner, that's all Ramirez didQuote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrankI watched it twice and Whitaker did not dominate anything but d running contest . How is constantly avoiding contact , doing no damage and always giving ground can b called a domination is a mystery 2 me . Ramirez deserved 2 win .Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesMorales was well passed it when he was stopped, and he's become the ONLY Mexican 4 division champ (even if you don't want to count his title at 140, he was blatantly robbed against Diaz at 135), it's all about resume and his resume is better than both Ramirez and Lopez, and for the record no way in hell did Ramirez beat Whitaker in their first fight in France, I have the original recording of the fight and Whitaker dominated, Ramirez won the fight cause he was the crowd favorite due to the fact that he was living in France at the time of the fightQuote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank
Ramirez came forward and was still being hit with jabs on the back foot, then Whitaker would get into the inside and bang the body and counters
Seems like u refer 2 their 2nd 1 in which Whitaker barely did any better .
Ramirez was also past his prime by their 1st fight .
Whitaker is not all of Ramirez' record though . U forget Ramirez deserved 2 win against Arguello in their 1st fight but got robbed . Even Rosario in their 1st fight did not deserve d decision .
Ramirez fought : Chavez , Rosariio*2 , Camacho , Whitaker*2 , Arguello , Mancini , Olivares , Juan Martin Coggi .
Ramirez is d 3rd greatest Mexican fighter of all times , 5th @ worst .
A bit Harsh on Olivares, he beat up on Castillo in the 3rd fight and Herrera just had his measure. How was Castillo robbed? If Olivares wasn't his era's best bantamweight 1968-1972 then who was? His style was always going to be risky in fights, he kept on coming forward and fought some wars. I'm not seeing anyone better than him in that era. Herrera just didn't go on with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrankZarate's resume is weak . I don't even count his "losses" 2 Pintor and Gomez as losses but look @ who he beat : Zamora and this is about where it ends . And Zamora wasn't great or near great anyway . Zamora's loss 2 some1 like Zarate counts against him more than Zarate's win over Zamora counts in his favor . Both r almost totally unproven . 2 1 hit wonders .Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANBoth Olivares and Zarate are way to low, they both could've been crowned King Of Mexico at some point in their career they were that popular. I have them both ahead of Palomino and Ramirez and top 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank
As 4 Olivares he is proven , but look @ his outcomes against Castillo & Herrera . 4 me he lost 2 each 1 of them in each 1 of their encounters . He was floored in his "winning" efforts against Castillo and was stopped due 2 cuts in another 1 of their encounters .
Olivares was not even Mexico's greatest bantamweight of his era , it's 2 close between himself , Castillo & Herera and if only d 3 of them had existed and their fights would have ended Xactly d way they had , i'd have them ranked like this :
1. Castillo (stopped Herera , cut Olivares and actually beat Olivares twice more but got robbed)
2. Herera (stopped Olivares twice but was stopped by Castillo)
3. Olivares (could just never beat Castillo or Hererra in 5 overall opportunities)
Whenever a KD occur , i tend 2 score d whole fight as if it was a single rd in regards of d question of who won .Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
Also , even when scoring fights RBR , i m not shy of scoring rds as 10-10 and then of d little that i did watch of 1 of their fights , Olivares looked a bit flashier but certainly did not look like beating Castillo .
Olivares was d better of d 3 outside of their fights against each other , but as far as their fights against each other went , he was clearly d worst .
Now take in2 consideration that he was d youngest of d 3 , and he does even worse if ages r hypothetically reversed against him (or even prime vs prime) .