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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.
Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.
I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.
Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds
Which one looks out of place???? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)
Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145
I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
captainanddew
someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.
Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds
Which one looks out of place???? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)
Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145
I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.
Well, what he does is that he weighs in at about 144-145 lbs for his fights. That's above the Light-Welter limit so he's a welterweight. His height or build has little to do with it. You've used fight night weights, but you've left out Mayweather who, according to Ring Magazine's July/August 2010 issue, came into the fight against Mosely at 149 lbs. Does that mean he's not a welterweight?
I believe Manny could make 140, but I doubt he makes 135 again, especially the amount of muscle mass he's put on. In fact, doesn't it show something when the 'biggest' of the guys you've posted is the one who has just moved up from 140 lbs. If Ortiz fought Clottey would you argue that the Ghanaian is just beating up on a bigger guy?
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
captainanddew
someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.
Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds
Which one looks out of place???? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)
Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145
I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.
Well, what he does is that he weighs in at about 144-145 lbs for his fights. That's above the Light-Welter limit so he's a welterweight. His height or build has little to do with it. You've used fight night weights, but you've left out Mayweather who, according to Ring Magazine's July/August 2010 issue, came into the fight against Mosely at 149 lbs. Does that mean he's not a welterweight?
I believe Manny could make 140, but I doubt he makes 135 again, especially the amount of muscle mass he's put on. In fact, doesn't it show something when the 'biggest' of the guys you've posted is the one who has just moved up from 140 lbs. If Ortiz fought Clottey would you argue that the Ghanaian is just beating up on a bigger guy?
what muscle mass? He's only 3 pounds bigger when he walks in the ring!!!
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
captainanddew
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
captainanddew
someone explain to me how Pac is a Welterweight.
He is beating welterweights but he is the same size as some of the bigger guys at 135 and smaller than most of the elite guys at 140.
Berto's weight when in the ring vs Ortiz (147 pound weigh in)-155
Ortiz's weight when in the ring vs Berto (147 pound weigh in)-161
Cotto's weight vs Urkal in 2007 (147 pound weigh in) -157 pounds
Clottey's weight vs Zab Judah (147 pound weigh in) 156 pounds
Pac's weight vs Margacheato- 148 pounds
Which one looks out of place???? Full fledged welter my ass. He just isn't dehydrating any and is eating up to the weigh in.
How about some lightweights (135 pound weigh in)
Brandon Rios's weight vs Peterson (135 pound weigh in) 151 pounds; Rios wasn't in great shape but he probably still comes into the ring around 147 or 148 even when in pretty good shape for 135
Marquez's weight vs Katsidis (135 pound weigh in) 145
I could waste my time looking for guys who have a weigh in limit of 140, but we all know many of them are going to weigh more than Pac does when he gets into the ring.
Well, what he does is that he weighs in at about 144-145 lbs for his fights. That's above the Light-Welter limit so he's a welterweight. His height or build has little to do with it. You've used fight night weights, but you've left out Mayweather who, according to Ring Magazine's July/August 2010 issue, came into the fight against Mosely at 149 lbs. Does that mean he's not a welterweight?
I believe Manny could make 140, but I doubt he makes 135 again, especially the amount of muscle mass he's put on. In fact, doesn't it show something when the 'biggest' of the guys you've posted is the one who has just moved up from 140 lbs. If Ortiz fought Clottey would you argue that the Ghanaian is just beating up on a bigger guy?
what muscle mass? He's only 3 pounds bigger when he walks in the ring!!!
He's not carrying 10 lbs of water weight, you can tell that looking at his body. Look at him in the ring for the Oscar fight compared to the Mosley one and he looks noticeably bigger. He's grown into the weight particularly over the last 18 months. Like I said, he could make 140, but not 135, at least not comfortably.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Well Mayweather comes in at 149 t0 150 fight night so how come he has to fight a cruiser weight. I mean i dont even like Mayweather but shit such a double standard its just in insane.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.
Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.
I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).
I can't comment on the amateur level because I know next to nothing about it, so it's not my place.
I commented on that even though Pac was not a grown man and I understand that looking at it from other points of views it may not be impressive moving up the weights, but Pac was still fighting grown men as a developing teen and managed to become a lineal champ at 19, only Marbleheadedmaui brought that up and I agree with him. So in no way was I dissing Amateurs, but on the other hand I also commented that even though the lower weight divisions had more weight classes and separated by 3 or 4 pounds it's not some easy task fighting at one division to another like it's some cakewalk and a guy can just go through those weight divisions like a hot knife through butter. Ricardo Lopez fought at 105 and 108, if it was easy he would have won alphabet titles and lineal titles all the way up to say 118 right? I mean it's only 13 pounds going from 105 to 118! So why didn't he fight all way up to bantamweight? Because it's not easy and these little fighters are physically different than higher weight fighters like say a 140 pound fighter going to 147. But some guy here on the previous page and it wasn't you, made it sound easy and insignificant with "hey these lower weights are separated by 3 or 4 pounds only!" Just some funny stuff and guy commented that he was an amateur boxer with serious knowledge on the fight game, but yet he's dissing the lower weights and Pac's acheivements.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Martinez is not the best fighter in the sport.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
I can't comment on the amateur level because I know next to nothing about it, so it's not my place.
I commented on that even though Pac was not a grown man and I understand that looking at it from other points of views it may not be impressive moving up the weights, but Pac was still fighting grown men as a developing teen and managed to become a lineal champ at 19, only Marbleheadedmaui brought that up and I agree with him. So in no way was I dissing Amateurs, but on the other hand I also commented that even though the lower weight divisions had more weight classes and separated by 3 or 4 pounds it's not some easy task fighting at one division to another like it's some cakewalk and a guy can just go through those weight divisions like a hot knife through butter. Ricardo Lopez fought at 105 and 108, if it was easy he would have won alphabet titles and lineal titles all the way up to say 118 right? I mean it's only 13 pounds going from 105 to 118! So why didn't he fight all way up to bantamweight? Because it's not easy and these little fighters are physically different than higher weight fighters like say a 140 pound fighter going to 147. But some guy here on the previous page and it wasn't you, made it sound easy and insignificant with "hey these lower weights are separated by 3 or 4 pounds only!" Just some funny stuff and guy commented that he was an amateur boxer with serious knowledge on the fight game, but yet he's dissing the lower weights and Pac's acheivements.
I see his point however, I don't think it was in context of someone like Lopez who was very small, more guys like Pacquiao & Donaire who are 'bigger' than those weights and growing through them. Obviously those limits are there for a reason because they represent percentages of body weight. Blegit in my experience knows a lot about the sport & although he hasn't said so, I believe he competed to a pretty high level as an amateur. I still agree winning a lineal title at just 19 (not to mention he's the only fighter in history with 4 of them) is a hell of an achievement & I think a lot of fans don't realize how good Sasakul was.
My point regarding the amateurs is that they would have been fighting grown men as teens. Any amateur will have to fight grown men & that's still what it is, a fight. It's another reason that many great prospects look to burn out early because there's plenty of wear & tear from the amateurs. A guy like Jerry Page is a perfect example of this.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Now I can see the argument that since Pacquiao was not a fully developed man yet and started fighting at such a low weight and then rising through the weights may not be as impressive as a grown man. But what people here have not mentioned and that you did was that Pacquaio was fighting fully developed men as a growing teenager. Not only that but to win a lineal championship (the real title) in only his teenage years is massively impressive. Only 5 other boxers have done this in boxing history. I can only name Canzoneri and Benitez as the other 2, the other 3 just escapes my mind right now.
Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.
I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).
Nice post!
Fair point on high level amateurs facing grown men. But they are doing so while wearing headgear, with far more protective referees and only for 8-9 minutes (depending on what era we are talking about). So they do not face a huge number of the challenges pros do. Fighting while hurt, fighting while really exhausted, and it is impossible in 8-9 minutes of fighting to have to deal with the same number of adjustments as one will face over 30-36 minutes of fighting. Staying disciplined and focuised for that far longer period is enormously different. It just isn't the same thing. The difference between amateur and pro boxing are at least as big as the difference between college and pro football or Triple A Baseball and the Majore Leagues.
That is not to deny amateur accomplishments (I help out training them from time to time), it is merely to note the differences.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Well Mayweather comes in at 149 t0 150 fight night so how come he has to fight a cruiser weight. I mean i dont even like Mayweather but shit such a double standard its just in insane.
Except Mayweather doesn't come in at that weight. Hell he violated his contract with JMM and wouldn't even try to make 144 the day before the fight.
The Math is pretty straightforward. Manny has fought across ten divisions. Floyd began as a 130. Ten divisions would be 130, 135, 140, 147, 154, 160, 168, 175 (that's only eight).
Try it another way. Manny has fought up 39% from his initial weight. 39% from 129 (Floyd's lowest) would be 179.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
and all the other top 168 pound fighters? Since it is said in the boxing world with Floyd's indefinite hiatus because of legal problems and Pacquiao is cherry picking fighters, they are not worthy to be considered the best in the sport and have been supplanted by Martinez. And since Martinez has no challengers at 160 and he is hoping that those two would jump more weight classes to fight him, but it isn't happening because those 2 aren't taking the risks. Well how about a move up to fight the top 168 pound fighters? Like Andre Ward, Kessler, Froch, Bute, etc. Surely it's much better than trying to make a fight with a 1 hit wonder like Ishida or hoping to fight Chavez Jr. or reality tv boxer Manfredo?
So how about it? Shouldn't the best in the sport test himself against the best from another weight class? Since his weight class is devoid of challenges? And the 168 pound class is one of the deepest in the sport right now.
Did you know that Sergio Martinez's last 5 opponents before 2008 have a record of like 71 wins and 78 losses :D :p . Not sure from what fighter it starts but its there.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
CRUISERWEIGHT Actually :D
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.
I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).
Nice post!
Fair point on high level amateurs facing grown men. But they are doing so while wearing headgear, with far more protective referees and only for 8-9 minutes (depending on what era we are talking about). So they do not face a huge number of the challenges pros do. Fighting while hurt, fighting while really exhausted, and it is impossible in 8-9 minutes of fighting to have to deal with the same number of adjustments as one will face over 30-36 minutes of fighting. Staying disciplined and focuised for that far longer period is enormously different. It just isn't the same thing. The difference between amateur and pro boxing are at least as big as the difference between college and pro football or Triple A Baseball and the Majore Leagues.
That is not to deny amateur accomplishments (I help out training them from time to time), it is merely to note the differences.
I agree on the referees & the timing, although amateur bouts are generally fought at a quicker pace because of that time difference. Where I disagree is headgear as to my mind it makes no difference to the force of a blow & I find it inhibits my head movement as this is a game of inches & it adds a little. Although at least it does prevent your face getting smashed up by headclashes. I also disagree on having to fight when hurt, if anything I believe this is where many top pros first have to learn to do this. It was a point Richardson made before the Mayweather-Mosley fight that he'd seen Floyd hit hard in the ams & that's when as he called it 'the dragon comes out'.
What I'd argue is that being a top amateur is equivalent to the early fights in any pro fighter's career assuming they're matched against guys with in or around .500 records. I think that until Chokchai, Pacquiao hadn't faced anyone who should have been remotely a threat given his amateur record & natural gifts (ignoring Torrecampo obviously). I suppose my point is that you may well face better opponents as an amateur than you will early in your pro career.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
Here's the problem I have with that. People seem to assume that fighting in the amateurs is some delightful cakewalk where you fight 8 year old girls wearing pillows. In bouts you wear 10oz gloves just like the pros & anyone who boxes to international level will largely be up against full grown men, particularly from Cuba & the former Soviet states. People are trying to hurt you, there's a slightly different focus on scoring, but believe the punches still hurt. It's why I personally factor in amatuer achievements in how I rate someone. Most US boxers will not be teen champs simply for the fact the very best will almost certainly want to represent their country internationally. Not to mention that US boxers have to work about 5x as hard as any other country to win points at Olympics & have to deal with some shocking disruption tactics on the international amateur stage.
I'm not denying it's a tremendous achievement by Manny, but equally I don't think that guys who choose to represent their country in one of the biggest sporting spectacles in the world should have their positions ignored. That aside I agree with the points you & Marble are putting forward, it's ridiculous that he gets heat for not moving to 154 to challenge Martinez or that he's now catching shit for fighting Marquez. To me he's had 3 gimme fights in a row, but Marquez took him to hell so there's no way this is a gimme even if I heavily favour Pac to win (as I did in the Cotto fight, also no gimme).
Nice post!
Fair point on high level amateurs facing grown men. But they are doing so while wearing headgear, with far more protective referees and only for 8-9 minutes (depending on what era we are talking about). So they do not face a huge number of the challenges pros do. Fighting while hurt, fighting while really exhausted, and it is impossible in 8-9 minutes of fighting to have to deal with the same number of adjustments as one will face over 30-36 minutes of fighting. Staying disciplined and focuised for that far longer period is enormously different. It just isn't the same thing. The difference between amateur and pro boxing are at least as big as the difference between college and pro football or Triple A Baseball and the Majore Leagues.
That is not to deny amateur accomplishments (I help out training them from time to time), it is merely to note the differences.
I agree on the referees & the timing, although amateur bouts are generally fought at a quicker pace because of that time difference. Where I disagree is headgear as to my mind it makes no difference to the force of a blow & I find it inhibits my head movement as this is a game of inches & it adds a little. Although at least it does prevent your face getting smashed up by headclashes. I also disagree on having to fight when hurt, if anything I believe this is where many top pros first have to learn to do this. It was a point Richardson made before the Mayweather-Mosley fight that he'd seen Floyd hit hard in the ams & that's when as he called it 'the dragon comes out'.
What I'd argue is that being a top amateur is equivalent to the early fights in any pro fighter's career assuming they're matched against guys with in or around .500 records. I think that until Chokchai, Pacquiao hadn't faced anyone who should have been remotely a threat given his amateur record & natural gifts (ignoring Torrecampo obviously). I
suppose my point is that you may well face better opponents as an amateur than you will early in your pro career.
Don't disagree at all. But you are doing so in far less risky and therefore less demanding environment.
There are reasons that pros don't come right out of the gate with ten round fights.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Don't disagree at all. But you are doing so in far less risky and therefore less demanding environment.
There are reasons that pros don't come right out of the gate with ten round fights.
I agree, apart from it being less risky & demanding. When you're in there all you want is that win & it's always risk when someone is trying to punch your face off ;D
On your second sentence, that's one thing that really impresses me about Pacquiao. He was facing guys in 10 round bout from as early as his 6th fight or something. Granted most of them weren't seeing that bell, but still that's damn impressive.
We've gone right off topic here ;D
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JazMerkin
;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Don't disagree at all. But you are doing so in far less risky and therefore less demanding environment.
There are reasons that pros don't come right out of the gate with ten round fights.
I agree, apart from it being less risky & demanding. When you're in there all you want is that win & it's always risk when someone is trying to punch your face off ;D
On your second sentence, that's one thing that really impresses me about Pacquiao. He was facing guys in 10 round bout from as early as his 6th fight or something. Granted most of them weren't seeing that bell, but still that's damn impressive.
We've gone right off topic here ;D
LOL, don't we always? I remember in Ray Robinson's autobiography how he described his nerves before his pro debut. It took him two rounds before he understood he'd faced better guys in the amateurs and he relaxed and fought his fight.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
-
Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Dead on but there blind......
Pac has a history of eating 12,400 calories daily to make anything above 140...oh and what's his heaviest 144.5 against Margo. So Pac eats only 200 hot dogs a day instead of the usual 600. Hey we all seen what the special hot dogs do right? I mean Kobayashi went from skinny little dude to a buff little dude. Hey wait...maybe it's all in the hot dogs and not the roids....
-
Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
-
Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
What does your guess on Floyd not being able to make a 147lb same day weigh in have to do with ANYTHING?
-
Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
while Martinez has said that he can make 154 pounds but prefers not too as it does not play to his strengths.
DiBella – “Martinez would knock Pacquiao the **** out” | Boxing Dispatch - News, Features, Interviews, Videos, Chat
I was wrong Sergio did say he can make 154 but prefers not to because it does not play to his strengths. Meaning he could possibly be ineffective and/or weight drain. You know it would get crazy here and other boxing forums would be, "The cowardly Pacquiao has decided to weight drain another opponent at another catchweight and make Sergio ineffective, that's why he won. He should have been man enough to jump another 2 weight classes and fight Martinez at 160, his natural weight." ;)
To get back on topic, if Martinez can't find any decent opposition at 160 maybe it's time to move up and challenge the Wards, Butes, Frochs, Kesslers as I've said. Half of the boxing fans on this forum and other boxing forums have proclaimed Martinez the best of the best in this sport, so how about challenging the no. 1 fighter at 168 in Ward?
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mafiajoey
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
What does your guess on Floyd not being able to make a 147lb same day weigh in have to do with ANYTHING?
it's a direct comment on a comment made in the previous post. This reading thing too much for you?
-
Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
Day before weigh ins are what we have and those photos illustrate a lot. If you really don't think there is anything different between a Manny who weighs in at 130 and a Manny who weighs in at 147, then I really don't know what to say. The difference is night and day. One looks like he is dying of AID's the other is a figure of health. Just look at them. They are different beasts come fight night as a result. The healthy one would likely maul the malnutritioned one. By doing what he is currently doing, he is a proper WW, it's just that he doesn't rehydrate as much. If he wasn't a WW, then he wouldn't be weighing above 140.
I bet he could boil down to 135, but I am convinced he would suffer as a consequence. The guy is simply bigger than he used to be.
-
Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
Day before weigh ins are what we have and those photos illustrate a lot. If you really don't think there is anything different between a Manny who weighs in at 130 and a Manny who weighs in at 147, then I really don't know what to say. The difference is night and day. One looks like he is dying of AID's the other is a figure of health. Just look at them.
They are different beasts come fight night as a result. The healthy one would likely maul the malnutritioned one. By doing what he is currently doing, he is a proper WW, it's just that he doesn't rehydrate as much. If he wasn't a WW, then he wouldn't be weighing above 140.
I bet he could boil down to 135, but I am convinced he would suffer as a consequence. The guy is simply bigger than he used to be.
Nope. That's simply wrong. It is a temporary condition easily remedied. Why? Because it does NOT represent malnourishment, merely temporary deydration. These guys get roughly 30 hours to recover. That is plenty of time to normalize the body. How do I know I'm right? Manny at 130 the day before fights around 145. Manny who the day before is 145 fights at 147 or so. And both guys can go non-stop for twelve rounds without a problem.
-
Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
Day before weigh ins are what we have and those photos illustrate a lot. If you really don't think there is anything different between a Manny who weighs in at 130 and a Manny who weighs in at 147, then I really don't know what to say. The difference is night and day. One looks like he is dying of AID's the other is a figure of health. Just look at them.
They are different beasts come fight night as a result. The healthy one would likely maul the malnutritioned one. By doing what he is currently doing, he is a proper WW, it's just that he doesn't rehydrate as much. If he wasn't a WW, then he wouldn't be weighing above 140.
I bet he could boil down to 135, but I am convinced he would suffer as a consequence. The guy is simply bigger than he used to be.
Nope. That's simply wrong. It is a temporary condition easily remedied. Why? Because it does NOT represent malnourishment, merely temporary deydration. These guys get roughly 30 hours to recover. That is plenty of time to normalize the body. How do I know I'm right? Manny at 130 the day before fights around 145. Manny who the day before is 145 fights at 147 or so. And both guys can go non-stop for twelve rounds without a problem.
So you are trying to tell me that a dehydrated Manny Pac would have just as much a chance of beating a more healthy looking, more muscular Manny at a day in weight of let's say 148 pounds? Hmm, I can't say I agree with that.
The dehydration is a factor and many fighters have complained about having to cut weight to fight and have spoken of the negative impact upon their own performances. Corrales, Morales and Toney spring readily to mind, but there are countless others that can be cited with a little consideration. In fact Manny himself looked quite drained and fought like it against Barrera the second time out. He was able to fight only in spurts and his last close fight was against Marquez. Since being free of draining he has shown greater rates of activity and looked like an energizer bunny. He slowed against Mosley, but has cited an injury.
Both pre drain and post drain Pac would come in at similar weights, but I have to differ with your conclusion that they are different beasts. Pac more recently at the lower weights had started to look a bit like a beatable fighter and the cutting quite obviously didn't help. The current one looks sharper, stronger and just as fast.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Not different beasts I mean, sorry was typing in a hurry as I don't have much time.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
Day before weigh ins are what we have and those photos illustrate a lot. If you really don't think there is anything different between a Manny who weighs in at 130 and a Manny who weighs in at 147, then I really don't know what to say. The difference is night and day. One looks like he is dying of AID's the other is a figure of health. Just look at them.
They are different beasts come fight night as a result. The healthy one would likely maul the malnutritioned one. By doing what he is currently doing, he is a proper WW, it's just that he doesn't rehydrate as much. If he wasn't a WW, then he wouldn't be weighing above 140.
I bet he could boil down to 135, but I am convinced he would suffer as a consequence. The guy is simply bigger than he used to be.
Nope. That's simply wrong. It is a temporary condition easily remedied. Why? Because it does NOT represent malnourishment, merely temporary deydration. These guys get roughly 30 hours to recover. That is plenty of time to normalize the body. How do I know I'm right? Manny at 130 the day before fights around 145. Manny who the day before is 145 fights at 147 or so. And both guys can go non-stop for twelve rounds without a problem.
So you are trying to tell me that a dehydrated Manny Pac would have just as much a chance of beating a more healthy looking, more muscular Manny at a day in weight of let's say 148 pounds? Hmm, I can't say I agree with that.
The dehydration is a factor and many fighters have complained about having to cut weight to fight and have spoken of the negative impact upon their own performances. Corrales, Morales and Toney spring readily to mind, but there are countless others that can be cited with a little consideration. In fact Manny himself looked quite drained and fought like it against Barrera the second time out. He was able to fight only in spurts and his last close fight was against Marquez. Since being free of draining he has shown greater rates of activity and looked like an energizer bunny. He slowed against Mosley, but has cited an injury.
Both pre drain and post drain Pac would come in at similar weights, but I have to differ with your conclusion that they are different beasts. Pac more recently at the lower weights had started to look a bit like a beatable fighter and the cutting quite obviously didn't help. The current one looks sharper, stronger and just as fast.
If you do know cutting too much weight is bad for a fighter, then why are you so vehemently against JMM fighting Pac at above 140? Why do you want it below 140? Since JMM and Pac wouldn't have to dehydrate that much at all wouldn't this be good for both of them? When they are especially much healthier on fight night and more than likely would be around 2 to 3 pounds of each other?
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
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So you are trying to tell me that a dehydrated Manny Pac would have just as much a chance of beating a more healthy looking, more muscular Manny at a day in weight of let's say 148 pounds? Hmm, I can't say I agree with that.
The dehydration is a factor and many fighters have complained about having to cut weight to fight and have spoken of the negative impact upon their own performances. Corrales, Morales and Toney spring readily to mind, but there are countless others that can be cited with a little consideration. In fact Manny himself looked quite drained and fought like it against Barrera the second time out. He was able to fight only in spurts and his last close fight was against Marquez. Since being free of draining he has shown greater rates of activity and looked like an energizer bunny. He slowed against Mosley, but has cited an injury.
Both pre drain and post drain Pac would come in at similar weights, but I have to differ with your conclusion that they are different beasts. Pac more recently at the lower weights had started to look a bit like a beatable fighter and the cutting quite obviously didn't help. The current one looks sharper, stronger and just as fast.
Here's what I am trying to tell you. I have spoken with enough boxing, MMA and wrestling coaches and competitors in the last 30 years that I am persuaded that proper dehydration followed by a proper rehydration done over a 24 or more hours leads to performance indistinguishable from not cutting at all. If it didn't? People would choose not to cut and would fight at higher weights. My view is entirely informed by dozens and dozens of conversations with those guys and them relaying their experiences. Fighters get into trouble because they don't train properly and try to do things all at once or because they simply are no longer a (pick the weight). They have literally outgrown the division.
My own personal experience with my own body is limited to two occasions, a very minor cut before a weightlifitng meet where I set a personal best (not meaningful in my view as it represented only 2% of my bodyweight). The other was a case of food poisoning on a Thursday of my senior year. I vomited so much my bodyweight went from 245-226 in a few hours and finally as low as 219 in the middle of Thursday night at the hospital. Then I began to be able to hold fluids and by drinking and with IV's by Saturday morning I was 240 and played a football game with no discernible dropoff in performance according to the coaches grades. And no I don't think that is typical or desireable, it's just what happened to me. I will note with that however that after the game? I completely fell apart, began vomiting again and ended up back with Mr. IV :(
The thing I think you are leaving out of manny in comparing him at 130 and now at 144 is the skill improvements. I think a useful right hand, better balance and better footwork explains a lot of the visual difference.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
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Originally Posted by
miles
Not different beasts I mean, sorry was typing in a hurry as I don't have much time.
No sweat. Always appreciate your thoughts!
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Too much quoting going on here.
GB, I have answered this before. Too much cutting is not a good thing and that's why I am not suggesting anything as mad as cutting to 135 to make the fight. All I have suggested is a compromise whereby one goes up a bit and the other comes down.
In suggesting that you have give and take in order to accomodate two fighters who are used to different weigh in's.
I don't see how that can be considered in any way unfair or unreasonable. However, all you get are the 'Pac is god and Marquez must kneel if he wants the fight' arguments. That to me is grotesquely unfair.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
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Originally Posted by
miles
Not different beasts I mean, sorry was typing in a hurry as I don't have much time.
No sweat. Always appreciate your thoughts!
Cheers, you too.
I'm nearly running late now, damn you GB, for forcing me to reply with another lengthy post! I'm out of here, later folks.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miles
Too much quoting going on here.
GB, I have answered this before. Too much cutting is not a good thing and that's why I am not suggesting anything as mad as cutting to 135 to make the fight. All I have suggested is a compromise whereby one goes up a bit and the other comes down.
In suggesting that you have give and take in order to accomodate two fighters who are used to different weigh in's.
I don't see how that can be considered in any way unfair or unreasonable. However, all you get are the 'Pac is god and Marquez must kneel if he wants the fight' arguments. That to me is grotesquely unfair.
My own view seems to have gotten lost here. Let me summarize.
1) Best fight would be for the 135 lineal belt and I think Manny could make it without hurting his performance. Given that, 140 won't impair Manny either and so it serves no incremental purpose I can see.
2) Under any weight limit we've mentioned, these two men will fight in the ring withing 3-4 pounds of one another anyway so a lot of this is much ado about nothing
3) 140 vs. 144 I think is immaterial and I'm equally unhappy with either :)
Now what were we arguing again?
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
My own view seems to have gotten lost here. Let me summarize.
1) Best fight would be for the 135 lineal belt and I think Manny could make it without hurting his performance. Given that, 140 won't impair Manny either and so it serves no incremental purpose I can see.
2) Under any weight limit we've mentioned, these two men will fight in the ring withing 3-4 pounds of one another anyway so a lot of this is much ado about nothing
3) 140 vs. 144 I think is immaterial and I'm equally unhappy with either :)
Now what were we arguing again?
He said fight should be at 140 and you object :)
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
[QUOTE=miron_lang;972214]
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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui;972207
My own view seems to have gotten lost here. Let me summarize.
1) Best fight would be for the 135 lineal belt and I think Manny could make it without hurting his performance. Given that, 140 won't impair Manny either and so it serves no incremental purpose I can see.
2) Under any weight limit we've mentioned, these two men will fight in the ring withing 3-4 pounds of one another anyway so a lot of this is much ado about nothing
3) 140 vs. 144 I think is immaterial and I'm equally unhappy with either :)
Now what were we arguing again?[/QUOTE
He said fight should be at 140 and you object :)
Really? Geeze I was a real moron when I did that huh?
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
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marbleheadmaui
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mafiajoey
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marbleheadmaui
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miles
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marbleheadmaui
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miles
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marbleheadmaui
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miles
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generalbulldog
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miles
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marbleheadmaui
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miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
If Manny had turned pro at 21 after an amateur career like other fighters, he would not have started at such low weights. By the time he would have been fighting for a belt he would have been significantly heavier. Too much emphasis is placed on Manny starting at 4 ounces or whatever it was. He started so low because he was a hungry kid, that was all. He is a proper WW today. Just look at how starved he looks against Marquez in their last weigh in and compare it to today.
There is absolutely no reason why he couldn't test himself and try to fight Martinez at 154. The Marquez comparison is absurd.
Martinez is on record saying he can't make 154, he says it would have to be at MW and he would oblige with a catchweight around 157-160. But we all know how you hate catchweights right, Miles?;)
And so what if Pacquiao doesn't want to jump another 2 weight classes into MW territory to fight Martinez? Is he a coward?
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? :)
I have also read recently that Martinez is considering the possibility of moving back to 154 because of the dearth of competition at 160. I would only be comfortable with the fight at 154, and as you point out, I am quite well known for my dislike of CW's. The possibility of that happening is not something I wish to consider.
Of course Pac wouldn't be a coward for not jumping 2 weight classes up to MW. That would likely be a step too far, but a single weight division is just that. It's less than what Marquez is currently having to jump through. People say 'oh but they will be a similar weight on the night'. Sure, but Manny will have a frame that he has had time to work with and practiced it against other opposition.
Marquez has only got that heavy after draining and rehydrating. Quite different things. Still that's a different argument really.
But THAT isn't true either! In JMM's last fight he weighed in at 145 before the fight after weighing in the day before at 133 and change. In other words JMM's optimal weight at fight time is within 2-3-4 pounds of Manny's.
And again, you saying "it's only one division" means none of the prior steps have meaning. You are arguing Manny moving a division after already moving across ten is the same thing as a fighter moving one to move3 into his second, third or fourth. Yet thousands of guys have done the latter and only a handful the former. I wonder why that is? ;)
Marquez's optimal fighting division is 135 and Manny's 147. Those are the facts. They both weigh in similarly come fight night, but prepared to fight quite different types of fighters. Marquez prepares for guys who drain and rehydrate. In fighting Manny he will be fighting someone who really doesn't do that. In fighting Manny, Marquez will be facing something quite different. Manny will come in at his regular weight. He will weigh in much the same as he will fight on the night. Marquez has no history of doing that.
LOL, did you really say JMM "trains for guys who dehydrate and rehydrate" like that is a style or something? How does one train for those guys? More swimming? Train in the rain? Work with water filled heavy bags? ;)
JMM fights guys who weigh in the high 140's on fight night. Manny weighs in the high 140's on fight night. All JMM need not do is dehydrate. Right?
Let me simplify. If we had same day weigh-ins? These guys are both welterweights, right?
Thanks for your thoughts, I'm out for a while.
Well, let's make this very simple for you.
Look at the weigh in photos of Pacquiao versus Marquez the second time out and look at the weigh in photos of Pac against Mosley. You will see two very different fighters. One is extremely drawn as he has boiled down to the weight, the other is a figure of health and strength as he didn't. Both guys come into the ring at a pretty similar weight.
Marquez is used to fighting in a slightly boiled down state and adding weight through rehydration. His opponents do likewise. Manny doesn't bother to boil down and just comes in relatvely natural, as a WW. Which IS his weight no matter how you want to look at it. You fight for two years at a weight, then you are that weight. Just as Floyd is a fully fledged WW too.
The point is that Marquez is used to fighting under those conditions and Pac is used to fighting under his own. In that sense it is obvious that the advantages are Pacs. Sure they might end up coming into the ring at relatively equal weights (maybe), but if Marquez bulks up it will be forced and if he just boils down and adds fluids Pac will be significantly stronger. He has no real history of fighting WW's.
The only way to make it a somewhat fair fight was for it to be at 140.
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
What does your guess on Floyd not being able to make a 147lb same day weigh in have to do with ANYTHING?
it's a direct comment on a comment made in the previous post. This reading thing too much for you?
Not at all....reading is just fine. But it really is irrelevant. Simple strategy of a Pactard is to make a comparison to something in regards to Floyd when justifying something about Pac. I wonder what Pacs nut huggers would do if they couldn't "use" Floyd in every sentence. Hes gone and on vacation and isn't relevant remember?
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
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Originally Posted by
mafiajoey
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
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Originally Posted by
mafiajoey
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
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Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
But he can fight for the 154lb title just not against someone who won't stand in front of him as a punching bag?
He fought Margo for the WBC light middleweight title 154lb
LOL, yeah like THAT piece of junk means something.
So if it means something then Pac can't do it? But if it means nothing and it's a cherry pick catch weight blah blah then it's ok for him to do it? And then you guys all praise him. Double standard the Pac fans use with Margo and Martinez...
Manny fighting bigger men is extremely impressive. But the Margarito fight didn't mean much outside of that did it?
A fight with Sergio Martinez is nothing short of a suicide mission. The equivalent would be JMM fighting a 168 or Floyd fighting a cruiserweight. THAT would be how many divisions Manny would have jumped.
Would it secure him a place in boxing's top 10-15 all-time if he won? Yup.
But given that you can't name ten men in history who have had the success across ten of today's divisions that Manny has, why do you find it useful to say if he doesn't he's being unreasonable?
Before you complain about him, doesn't logic require you to complain about the 99.999% of all figthers who have never tried to fight acrosds ten divisions?
You say the Margo fight didn't mean much? Are you kidding? It's your claim to fame for Manny so you can remind us he has won titles in as many divisions as he has. Since it didn't mean much I will give you permission to dock one number from the number you use when describing how many titles hes won. You said it yourself...it didn't mean much.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miron_lang
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
My own view seems to have gotten lost here. Let me summarize.
1) Best fight would be for the 135 lineal belt and I think Manny could make it without hurting his performance. Given that, 140 won't impair Manny either and so it serves no incremental purpose I can see.
2) Under any weight limit we've mentioned, these two men will fight in the ring withing 3-4 pounds of one another anyway so a lot of this is much ado about nothing
3) 140 vs. 144 I think is immaterial and I'm equally unhappy with either :)
Now what were we arguing again?
He said fight should be at 140 and you object :)
Haha, that's it in a nutshell. ;D
I just think it was the fairest thing to do. It would appease all sides. What we have is Manny dictating everything and so the forums get disgruntled people. All I want as a fan is fair, decent scraps and considering both fighters personal and recent history, 140 just seemed the logical place to have it.
Still, it hasn't happened and what is just is. I would have preferred that to what we have, but at the end of the day Marquez is making the decisions and he has gone through with it. I worry that he might get blasted away at this weight and that isn't very fun or fair. The closer the weight to LW is the better for Marquez, 140 would have been fair on both men. 144 is in favour of Manny.
I see Marbleheads argument and he makes good points, but as the fight stands, it doesn't meet my idea of fair simply because both men fight in different divisions and have fought different types of opponents for 2 years. Marquez simply isn't a WW, whilst Manny is much more a WW.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Wait a minute are you comparing weigh-in photos? Those tell you nothing. They are the day before a fight.
Unless you are arguing dehydrating and rehydrating somehow makes a fighter better? Shouldn't JMM not having to do that help him in this case? I mean both guys will weight more or less thae same while fighting, right? JMM should NOT bulk up. He just sahouldn't dehydrate.
Again, you defining a guy by who he fights rather than what he actually weighs (or more exactly, could weigh) means Harry Greb was a light heavy (never the way he is thought of). Let me try it this way. Henry Armstrong when he was welterweight champ fought his first seven defenses at 135 or under. You think the right way to describe him then was as a welter? Nope. The best way is a lightweight fighting welters and holding the welter crown. Manny simply forgoes the advatage of day before weigh-ins which would allow him to fight smaller guys. He is no more a welter than JMM. Here merely fights them.
My guess is Floyd could not make 147 with a same day weigh-in. We know for sure he can't make 144 the day before right? I mean he violated his contract with JMM.
Now having said all this I don't think it's a great fight either. I don't think 140 makes much of a difference in this case. It means Manny skips a meal and a day of water and that's it. 135 would be special.
As I mentioned earlier, Mayweather's fight night weight for the Mosley fight was 149, so he could almost certainly do a same day weigh-in. I think him not making 144 comes down to Floyd being a dick & wanting to assert his position to GBP & Oscar particularly rather than anything else. Even that night he only re-hydrated up to 152, which was apparently his highest ever fight night weight. I don't buy that he's significantly bigger than Manny.
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Re: If Martinez is the best fighter in the sport how about fighting Ward, Kessler, Fr
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Originally Posted by
mafiajoey
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
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Originally Posted by
mafiajoey
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
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Originally Posted by
mafiajoey
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Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
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Originally Posted by
miles
I don't see why he couldn't do that, but likewise I don't know why Pac couldn't fight him at 154 either. Marquez goes up two, but Pac can't go up one properly? Hmm. Double standards there methinks.
Martinez would be a smaller SMW, but it isn't a particularly mad thing to consider doing.
This is SUCH bullspit! Manny is in his TENTH division and you want him to go up more?
The equivalent for JMM would be for him to go to 168 or 175!
But he can fight for the 154lb title just not against someone who won't stand in front of him as a punching bag?
He fought Margo for the WBC light middleweight title 154lb
LOL, yeah like THAT piece of junk means something.
So if it means something then Pac can't do it? But if it means nothing and it's a cherry pick catch weight blah blah then it's ok for him to do it? And then you guys all praise him. Double standard the Pac fans use with Margo and Martinez...
Manny fighting bigger men is extremely impressive. But the Margarito fight didn't mean much outside of that did it?
A fight with Sergio Martinez is nothing short of a suicide mission. The equivalent would be JMM fighting a 168 or Floyd fighting a cruiserweight. THAT would be how many divisions Manny would have jumped.
Would it secure him a place in boxing's top 10-15 all-time if he won? Yup.
But given that you can't name ten men in history who have had the success across ten of today's divisions that Manny has, why do you find it useful to say if he doesn't he's being unreasonable?
Before you complain about him, doesn't logic require you to complain about the 99.999% of all figthers who have never tried to fight acrosds ten divisions?
You say the Margo fight didn't mean much? Are you kidding? It's your claim to fame for Manny so you can remind us he has won titles in as many divisions as he has. Since it didn't mean much I will give you permission to dock one number from the number you use when describing how many titles hes won. You said it yourself...it didn't mean much.
Yup, it didn't mean much. For the mentally impaired (like you Joey ;)) Manny's greatest accomplishment is winning four legitimate lineal crowns, the only man in history to do so.
The straps at 122, 135, 147 and 154 mean nothing. Lineal or as i call them THE MAN titles are all that carry any weight. The rest are merely a function of how corrupt a given alphabet group feels on a given day.
