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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
This is why you have to be careful comparing different eras. in Ali's era, the vast majority of HW's are smaller than today. nowadays ,they also have much more high tech training facilities , various supplements (even the legal ones) that benefit athletes of today. Fuck me, they should be better Today!
Even in other sports this is the case . for example, Athletics, World Records get beat and times go down all the time. Jesse Owens wouldn't make an Olympic final now, does that mean a guy who finishes last in the final is greater than Jesse Owens? that's Bullshit!
and when it comes to Ali, I have to take issue a bit . I would say he is about the same size (6 foot 2 or 3 , 210LBS.) as Haye. I would wager that most people believe Ali would beat Haye. and that is despite the fact that Ali's prime was 45 years ago, he didn't have access to the training facilities and techniques that Haye did and didn't have the benefit of nutrition and supplement advances that Haye has.
With all those disadvantages Ali had , the only boxer who I can think of who succeeded in similar circumstances was Rocky vs Drago!!! :rolleyes:
there has to be a bit of licence for the era someone was born in, or it's pointless even talking about it.
Good one buddy, you compare featherfist Ali to knockout artist Haye. Haye has some of the most outstanding reflexes ever seen at HW ever. Ali was a human punching bag of unmatched disgrace. At any given weight, Haye is heaps faster than Ali, not to mention several times more powerful.
Ali would not last more than 3 rounds with David Haye, not under any circumstances!
What I like doin' is sittin' back, smilin', and watchin' some folks just out-do themselves at every turn.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
I just don't understand why so much stock is put into Haye at heavyweight based on beating up John Ruiz. It has to be that because he certainly has not done anything else there, literally.
Do not listen to Max. In his eyes Have beat Ali even David himself would disagree. ;D
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
I just don't understand why so much stock is put into Haye at heavyweight based on beating up John Ruiz. It has to be that because he certainly has not done anything else there, literally.
Do not listen to Max. In his eyes Have beat Ali even David himself would disagree. ;D
Yes I can just imagine David Haye being REAL intimidated by a guy who went balls to the wall with Doug Jones, got plastered by Henry Cooper and realistically got beaten by such luminary opponents like Bum Jimmy Young and bum beater Earnie "I can't even box" Shavers, for which they were robbed of their efforts.
Haye could not hold a candle to such overacheievers.
All his athleticism, speed, reflexes, elusiveness, counterpunching skills and power would be near worthless against those boys, but not Ali, he doesn't need any real skills, just heart and balls, the "unmeasurable" quantities.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Wlad lost to fucking bum when he was a younger man and few contenders from the 90's. He maybe better now but it not like the Hw division full of talent right now. The reason being is that there are sports that most of our big men play in now is Basketball and Football Boxing not there anymore well at least for bigger guys really. I mean ali got decked a dew times early in his career but he did not lose. Wlad early loses were against guys who did jack shit really before and after him kinda hurts the legacy and he wont fight best fighter in his era.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
At first glance this fight seems like a FOTY. In reality it would have been a shutout, with The Holy Man punishing Joe with gruesome combinations. Like the Tyson fight, but without the adversity that Tyson gave Evander.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
I just don't understand why so much stock is put into Haye at heavyweight based on beating up John Ruiz. It has to be that because he certainly has not done anything else there, literally.
Do not listen to Max. In his eyes Have beat Ali even David himself would disagree. ;D
Yes I can just imagine David Haye being REAL intimidated by a guy who went balls to the wall with Doug Jones, got plastered by Henry Cooper and realistically got beaten by such luminary opponents like Bum Jimmy Young and bum beater Earnie "I can't even box" Shavers, for which they were robbed of their efforts.
Haye could not hold a candle to such overacheievers.
All his athleticism, speed, reflexes, elusiveness, counterpunching skills and power would be near worthless against those boys, but not Ali, he doesn't need any real skills, just heart and balls, the "unmeasurable" quantities.
Carl Fucking Thompson - you ass wipe. ;)
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
I just don't understand why so much stock is put into Haye at heavyweight based on beating up John Ruiz. It has to be that because he certainly has not done anything else there, literally.
Do not listen to Max. In his eyes Have beat Ali even David himself would disagree. ;D
Yes I can just imagine David Haye being REAL intimidated by a guy who went balls to the wall with Doug Jones, got plastered by Henry Cooper and realistically got beaten by such luminary opponents like Bum Jimmy Young and bum beater Earnie "I can't even box" Shavers, for which they were robbed of their efforts.
Haye could not hold a candle to such overacheievers.
All his athleticism, speed, reflexes, elusiveness, counterpunching skills and power would be near worthless against those boys, but not Ali, he doesn't need any real skills, just heart and balls, the "unmeasurable" quantities.
Carl Fucking Thompson - you ass wipe. ;)
Oh, yeah right! As if Carl Thompson was not a better opponent than most of Ali's early opponents.
OTNB logic, a boxer is a bum because they beat a great boxer which also makes him a bum. Real smart.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?
You get more stupidier everyday.
Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.
You were saying.....:)
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?
You get more stupidier everyday.
Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.
You were saying.....:)
I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.
Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!
Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.
It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.
Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ! :o
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?
You get more stupidier everyday.
Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.
You were saying.....:)
I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.
Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!
Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.
It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.
Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ! :o
no, lets all hang rubbish on Haye because he is so utterly inactive, arrogant, never fought anybody great, went in with an injured toe, backed out of fights, and talked trash.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brocktonblockbust
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
So now Carl Thompson was better than Ali's opponents?
You get more stupidier everyday.
Point being Ali may have got knocked down in his early days he never lost and got stopped. He also went on to become undisputed champion, beat the best fighters in the division and become a legend.
You were saying.....:)
I just said SOME early opponents because I cannot be bothered running an analysis comparison. Let's just say that Carl Thompson was a decent modern opponent for Haye at CW.
Without delving too far into speculation, I think it's a bit naïve of you to think that Carl Thompson couldn't beat maybe all of the 200lb and below opponents on Ali's record. Carl Thompson was a good boxer!
Now let's look at the actual fight. Haye was serving Thompson a thrashing, ahead on all score cards, when he was caught and TKOed on his feet. Cruiserweight is a heavy division. The punches really hurt other cruiserweights. It should come as no surprise that upsets can occur. Verdict? Haye proved in his loss that he was skilfully more adept than Thompson, and that he let his defences down and paid the price, simple.
It's obvious Haye>Thompson. Thompson does not bummify Haye.
Haye basically has NEVER been strictly "outboxed" if you will, as a professional apart from by Wladimir Klitschko. Let's all hang rubbish on Haye for losing only to the dominant HW champ! :o
no, lets all hang rubbish on Haye because he is so utterly inactive, arrogant, never fought anybody great, went in with an injured toe, backed out of fights, and talked trash.
That's better.. Except "Never fought great opponents". What level of competition would you define as great? Who should Haye have fought? How do you know that Haye's opponents were no good? Have you watched all of them? What about his opponents opponents records? What were the weight differentials when he fought unlimited (HW)?
Seems to me that David Haye has a pretty excellent little boxing record. And has some fought A LOT of great fighters if you accept great to mean they were "great boxers". After winning championship as CW (a real small feat that one) and beating top cruiserweights like Mormeck, he proceeded to then step up to HW where he, unfortunately because of the era, even at 6'3" and 220-210 lbs (the same size as Ali except much more ripped at that weight) had to ALWAYS face contenders that were taller and heavier. The guy outboxed 7'0" 320lb Valuev, the greatest size differential in any HW boxing fight. Proceeded to knock out 4 more good opponents in Harrison, Barret, Ruiz and Chisora and survive Wladimir Klitschko.
I wouldn't rubbish Haye's record because it's better objectively than the 70's version alone of George Foreman's!
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.
What a load of rubbish. Boxers fight, boxers bleed, they are happier when they win and sad when they lose. That much is ALWAYS the same from generation to generation. What the Klitschko's did is not normal, it is extraordinary. And most of their opponents are exceptional boxers, like David Haye for example.
Muhammad Ali's best win was vs a guy who COULD BARELY BOX at 218lbs who had absolutely nothing but a hard punch! Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skillset too to back it up.
How anybody cannot draw this comparison is outrageous!
And now you bummify the 80's era too by claiming today is only "marginally better" than that era?
It's unreal! Every objective person can see IMMEDIATELY that boxing only STARTED to become a professional sport, like basically every other sport too, in the 80's. Yet you will try to spin it that these guys couldn't hold a candle to previous eras?
Passing of the torch, it was OBVIOUS by the Lewis/Vitali fight that the Klitschko's are comparable. It was said of the 90's exactly when old Larry Holmes and old George Foreman stood strong in the 90's that imagine what they would have done in their primes vs guys like Lennox, Tyson and Holyfield. And it's the same that's being said now with the Klitschko's vs OLD Lennox Lewis. Haye vs OLD Thomson. Haye performing similar to OLD Holyfield vs Valuev.
What is overwhelming evidence for experience compensating somewhat for athleticism, and most often WEIGHT compensating as well, is being turned around as some sort of PROOF that every generation of boxers are getting worse!
NO generation is SPECIAL overall. The only thing that happens is that the sport itself evolves, and every generation of boxers gets better and better over time in general!
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Dude Haye best win at Heavyweight is a guy a 48 year old Holyfeild beat and got robbed. I think cw is good for what it is but he pretty much fought ok guys and a freak show. Wald is a good heavy and will make it in hall but his comp not much better then the 80's really a alot of kinda ok people fighting right now. I mean reason why this shit a problem is that there was no real passing of the torch because both brothers got beat by the last generation so i kinda fucked it up and is hard to gauge because of it.
What a load of rubbish. Boxers fight, boxers bleed, they are happier when they win and sad when they lose. That much is ALWAYS the same from generation to generation. What the Klitschko's did is not normal, it is extraordinary. And most of their opponents are exceptional boxers, like David Haye for example.
Muhammad Ali's best win was vs a guy who COULD BARELY BOX at 218lbs who had absolutely nothing but a hard punch! Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skillset too to back it up.
How anybody cannot draw this comparison is outrageous!
And now you bummify the 80's era too by claiming today is only "marginally better" than that era?
It's unreal! Every objective person can see IMMEDIATELY that boxing only STARTED to become a professional sport, like basically every other sport too, in the 80's. Yet you will try to spin it that these guys couldn't hold a candle to previous eras?
Passing of the torch, it was OBVIOUS by the Lewis/Vitali fight that the Klitschko's are comparable. It was said of the 90's exactly when old Larry Holmes and old George Foreman stood strong in the 90's that imagine what they would have done in their primes vs guys like Lennox, Tyson and Holyfield. And it's the same that's being said now with the Klitschko's vs OLD Lennox Lewis. Haye vs OLD Thomson. Haye performing similar to OLD Holyfield vs Valuev.
What is overwhelming evidence for experience compensating somewhat for athleticism, and most often WEIGHT compensating as well, is being turned around as some sort of PROOF that every generation of boxers are getting worse!
NO generation is SPECIAL overall. The only thing that happens is that the sport itself evolves, and every generation of boxers gets better and better over time in general!
How could it be otherwise!
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!
You are insane! They are not bums but turds.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
These threads are fun to read. It's starts off decently with a mythical matchup between a prime Holyfield and a prime Frazier..... and somehow gets derailed into Max claiming that David Haye (of all people) would beat Ali. Priceless shit!!!
First the topic at hand:
Joe was not the.... what was it.... "feather-fisted, blind, punching bag bum"..... that a couple of deluded posters on here disrespectfully make him out to be. That is beyond ludicrous. Joe Frazier was heavyweight champion of the world, and accumulated plenty of knockouts himself until he pretty much got ruined between his fights with Ali and his massacre at the hands of Big George Foreman.
I'd still have to favor Holyfield, if only because of Holyfield's size, chin, and heart. Frazier would've connected on Holyfield, and maybe wobbled him once or twice. But Holyfield's sheer physicality would've eventually worn out Frazier, for a late round TKO win.
Now on to Haye vs. Ali........
Are you mad?!?!?!?
Also, let me put an argument to rest right here and now:
The difference between Ali's opponents, Frazier's opponents, and Wlad's opponents is the following:
Neither Ali's opponents nor Frazier's opponents entered the ring already beaten, with a load of shit in their pants and empty space where their balls used to be. Wlad's opponents, Haye included, do a lot of talking and promising. But just like politicians, when they enter the ring all they have in mind is to find the nearest corner to lay down, or how to survive with the least amount of pain so they can collect their unearned checks.
What they don't realize is that Wlad himself is scared shitless of taking one on the chin, thus resulting in boring, pawing, grappling, clutching, mauling fights.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!
You are insane! They are not bums but turds.
Yes that is a very objective assessment right there.
Guys like Jerry Quarry is a quality opponent.
David Haye is a turd.
George Foreman had underrated skills..
But Bermane Stiverne is a piece of crap.
I know you don't believe any of it. It's unbelievable.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
These threads are fun to read. It's starts off decently with a mythical matchup between a prime Holyfield and a prime Frazier..... and somehow gets derailed into Max claiming that David Haye (of all people) would beat Ali. Priceless shit!!!
Holyfield vs Frazier and Haye vs Ali are total mismatches in favour of Haye and Holyfield. Objectively speaking there is no way possible that the oldies could beat these guys.
Quote:
First the topic at hand:
Joe was not the.... what was it.... "feather-fisted, blind, punching bag bum"..... that a couple of deluded posters on here disrespectfully make him out to be. That is beyond ludicrous. Joe Frazier was heavyweight champion of the world, and accumulated plenty of knockouts himself until he pretty much got ruined between his fights with Ali and his massacre at the hands of Big George Foreman.
Joe Frazier was part blind, undeniable fact.
Frazier was a hard puncher vs CW's, a featherfist vs HW's. Stats are facts.
Frazier was hit easily. Pull up any Frazier video where he faced a non-bummy opponent, randomly click on any time of the fight and see how long it takes him to get hit.
Frazier is not a bum. He had a good record. Were he to fight today he would be less than a bum at either CW or HW and would never be licenced to box anyway.
Joe Frazier was HW champion of the world in the early 1970's!!! The year is nearly 2015.
Joe Frazier scored plenty of knockouts vs CW's and bums. Vs HW's with decent records, Frazier managed to KO less than half of his opponents.
His fight with Ali, an even weaker featherfist, which he won and his first KO loss to Foreman who could barely box ruined him. Lennox Lewis was 2ce outboxed by lesser opponents and then knocked out. Wladimir Klitschko met demise 3 times. These guys came back to reclaim the title after being upset by very powerful boxers. But Frazier was done in by these guys? Get real!
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I'd still have to favor Holyfield, if only because of Holyfield's size, chin, and heart. Frazier would've connected on Holyfield, and maybe wobbled him once or twice. But Holyfield's sheer physicality would've eventually worn out Frazier, for a late round TKO win.
Holyfield was not the hardest boxer to hit. Frazier might land some punches. Holyfield would never flinch at a Frazier punch, the guy took millions of bombs from superheavyweight punchers and was rarely ever knocked down. He would demolish Holyfield so easily it would not be worthwhile.
It's obvious that Frazier would never enter the ring with Holyfield because he would lose to far worse opposition in his era before he ever reached Evander.
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Now on to Haye vs. Ali........
Are you mad?!?!?!?
Deadly serious of course. Declaring the opposite would be madness.
Haye is possibly the fastest HW in history, faster than Ali at any comparable weight.
Haye is ultra slick with possibly the most outstanding reflexes of any HW in history. Ali 1 was a runner who was hit by the slowest punches as soon as he stayed in range. Ali 2 was a slow plodding overweight who was smashed from pillar to post in nearly all of his fights.
Haye knocked out almost every opponent he ever faced and 4 boxers who significantly outweighed him as well. Ali never once scored a proper knockout over any decent opponent.
Haye was never outboxed ever except by WK who out-talled and outweighed him.
Ali was outboxed and in reality lost atleast 10 or 11 fights and was gift assisted/struggled in many others.
Haye fought much higher quality boxers than Muhammad Ali.
I'd say it's a landslide for Haye. He would totally clown and knockout any version of Ali who would never land a significant punch on him. Fact!
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Also, let me put an argument to rest right here and now:
The difference between Ali's opponents, Frazier's opponents, and Wlad's opponents is the following:
Neither Ali's opponents nor Frazier's opponents entered the ring already beaten, with a load of shit in their pants and empty space where their balls used to be. Wlad's opponents, Haye included, do a lot of talking and promising. But just like politicians, when they enter the ring all they have in mind is to find the nearest corner to lay down, or how to survive with the least amount of pain so they can collect their unearned checks.
Ah yes, of course, one after another, every boxer that has faced Klitschko and LOST just didn't try hard enough to win.
Of course that's the reason.
But all the opponents that faced Ali and Frazier and LOST it was because they were quality boxers but Ali and Frazier were too great.
Yeah that's gotta be it! LOL
Maybe it had something to do with the fact that Wladimir Klitschko has an almost invincible style+attributes and Frazier and Ali could barely box and were piss weak!
Quote:
What they don't realize is that Wlad himself is scared shitless of taking one on the chin, thus resulting in boring, pawing, grappling, clutching, mauling fights.
Oh, so TitoFan here KNOWS that Wladimir Klitschko is scared to take a punch on his weak chin but none of the opponents or their coaches are privy to such information who actually fight him. The solution is SO simple, just tap that chin and he's gone. Except HITTING Wladimir Klitschko is extremely difficult as evidenced by punch stats. Except almost every opponent has landed atleast 1 good+solid shot on Klitschko which has sent him to the canvas statistically one of the FEWEST times for any HW.
Maybe you should impart your wisdom to the next WK opponent then so we can see a change of the throne and save boxing from boring old Wladimir ;)
Rarely do I see such utter rubbish!
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!
You are insane! They are not bums but turds.
Yes that is a very objective assessment right there.
Guys like Jerry Quarry is a quality opponent.
David Haye is a turd.
George Foreman had underrated skills..
But Bermane Stiverne is a piece of crap.
I know you don't believe any of it. It's unbelievable.
Haye fought like a turd against Wlad.
Stiverne has not fought Wlad yet.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!
You are insane! They are not bums but turds.
Yes that is a very objective assessment right there.
Guys like Jerry Quarry is a quality opponent.
David Haye is a turd.
George Foreman had underrated skills..
But Bermane Stiverne is a piece of crap.
I know you don't believe any of it. It's unbelievable.
Haye fought like a turd against Wlad.
Stiverne has not fought Wlad yet.
Haye looks good against his other opponents..
Basically ALL of Wlad's opponents looked good against their other opponents, but not against Wladimir.
Conclusion= It's Wlad's credit that MAKES them look bad. Klitschko's style nullifies and shuts down the opponents style.
Obviously.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Max Power
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Almost EVERY Wladimir opponent has a hard punch and MOST of them have good skill set to to back it up!
You are insane! They are not bums but turds.
Yes that is a very objective assessment right there.
Guys like Jerry Quarry is a quality opponent.
David Haye is a turd.
George Foreman had underrated skills..
But Bermane Stiverne is a piece of crap.
I know you don't believe any of it. It's unbelievable.
Haye fought like a turd against Wlad.
Stiverne has not fought Wlad yet.
Haye looks good against his other opponents..
Basically ALL of Wlad's opponents looked good against their other opponents, but not against Wladimir.
Conclusion= It's Wlad's credit that MAKES them look bad. Klitschko's style nullifies and shuts down the opponents style.
Obviously.
Name some opponents that have looked good? Conversely they may have looked good because they were fighting poor opposition.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Holyfeild was fucking 48 not everyone is Hopkins you should not be that competitive near that age against a fucking champ. Haye in his prime best outing at hw that was beat by a fucking man at the end of 26 year career who started at fucking lhw. Max you are a idiot say all shit i am not even saying this eras that bad but you want that extreme saying its tha best bullshit. The Older brother got his face turned into a vag by a 38 year old Lewis who was out shape last time he was in that shap fucking rahman knocked him the fuck out. Wald lost to total bum in Purty and then got lit up by Sanduars who was top 10 nothing in the 90's and did really nothing but golf after he beat Wald. Bewster fucking lost his title to a man who got knocked out by fucking Briggs telling this is the best we have had come the fuck on.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Holyfeild was fucking 48 not everyone is Hopkins you should not be that competitive near that age against a fucking champ. Haye in his prime best outing at hw that was beat by a fucking man at the end of 26 year career who started at fucking lhw. Max you are a idiot say all shit i am not even saying this eras that bad but you want that extreme saying its tha best bullshit. The Older brother got his face turned into a vag by a 38 year old Lewis who was out shape last time he was in that shap fucking rahman knocked him the fuck out. Wald lost to total bum in Purty and then got lit up by Sanduars who was top 10 nothing in the 90's and did really nothing but golf after he beat Wald. Bewster fucking lost his title to a man who got knocked out by fucking Briggs telling this is the best we have had come the fuck on.
Holyfield at 48 had lost former speed and athleticism and workrate. But he maintained those other qualities. Fortunately, he had still more of these qualities to be able to match the giant Valuev. I thought it could have been a draw. Judges thought he lost!
Haye clearly beat Valuev. The problem with rating any boxer vs Valuev is that it is always a game of hit and run because of the size disparity. And any boxer is going to be fast enough to hit him. It is simply a test of tactics over 12 rounds. Of Haye, Chagaev and Holyfield, only Haye had a moment there where he nearly put the giant down.
Haye rocked up to the HW division the smallest competitor and started whacking giant boxers around and out like it was his own weight class. Basically never seen before!
Vitali punched the living shit out of Lennox at ONLY 38 which is not old, the heaviest and most experienced version of Lewis. Lennox was incredibly lucky to slash some freak cuts of VK and get stoppage. Obviously he could not beat Vitali under concventional means in a rematch and retired.
So you make excuses for LEnnox vs Rahman when no excuses exist. He was outboxed and knocked out, but you will rubbish Klitschko's for losses when there are circumstantial factors in all if them. Extreme bias.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Lennox was landing pretty well in last few rounds of the fight did not go very long. 38 is fucking old dude not prime or close to it name a top guy not named the Klitschko that is good who is 38 dude. I am biased how funny that is coming from you dude Wald is your fucking god man i said he was top 10 were is my biases at. There was no passing of the torch so to say for this division at least Tyson knocked the champs out before him. Also say what you want about Larry but he beat Mercer and McCall but was robbed. Fact is there was no torch passed because Vitali failed and at his age Lewis does not owe jack shit. Wald the champ now lost fucking Purty garbage fighter and Sanders who was a contender went off to golf after owning Wald then Brewster who was out boxed sub par guys knocks out Wald then lose to a guy who got his ass knocked out of the ring by fucking Briggs yea there way ahead of there time. Vaule being a champ is a joke in it self and if you scored that fight for anyone not named Holyfeild do not know what to say because Holyfeild landed more accurate shots and doge every thing that was thrown at him.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Lennox was landing pretty well in last few rounds of the fight did not go very long. 38 is fucking old dude not prime or close to it name a top guy not named the Klitschko that is good who is 38 dude. I am biased how funny that is coming from you dude Wald is your fucking god man i said he was top 10 were is my biases at. There was no passing of the torch so to say for this division at least Tyson knocked the champs out before him. Also say what you want about Larry but he beat Mercer and McCall but was robbed. Fact is there was no torch passed because Vitali failed and at his age Lewis does not owe jack shit. Wald the champ now lost fucking Purty garbage fighter and Sanders who was a contender went off to golf after owning Wald then Brewster who was out boxed sub par guys knocks out Wald then lose to a guy who got his ass knocked out of the ring by fucking Briggs yea there way ahead of there time. Vaule being a champ is a joke in it self and if you scored that fight for anyone not named Holyfeild do not know what to say because Holyfeild landed more accurate shots and doge every thing that was thrown at him.
Yeah Lennox was landing pretty well in the last couple of rounds, but nothing at all significant in the first few.
It's almost too stupid to point out, but possibly the most serious front to all Lennox afficinados with regards to TKO6 is that it stands to reason that the debilitating performance of Vitali in those later rounds is obviously attributed to the worsening injuries he was sustaining to his face. The fact he managed to maintain parity with Lewis with half a face in those rounds is testament to how much better he could have smashed LEnnox had he not been cut. And I don't think anybody could seriously argue that Vitali would be cut again in the rematch.
So it comes back to the cuts. You can see clearly how they occurred, because Vitali was pushing it on Lewis so furiously, LEnnox was swiping like a wild jungle cat without any recourse to technique as he was overwhelmed. Fortunately these slashing shots from Lennox managed to slice VK open. It's boxing. Vitali has to wear that loss. Just as he has to wear the Byrd loss. But it's also obvious these are un-conventional and in-conclusive stoppages which in no way prove LEnnox or Byrd's worth over Vitali at time of bout.
Both Klitschko's were good at 38. Lennox Lewis was good at 38 (he destroyed Tyson and Rahman 1-2 years earlier. Rahman being his very best performance. A 38 yr old Holyfield was a top competitor. Larry Holmes and George Foreman were top competitors in their 40's and had some of their best wins at this time. Bernard Hopkins just retired at age 50. Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pac are still the best in their eras at this age too. And so on...
38 is not old for a fighter. Take the average 20 year old, put him against the average 38 year old boxer down any gym and the older bloke usually beats them up due to strength and experience. Obviously!
The main elements that are prime in the 20's are speed and athleticism. Strength, stamina, weight, power, ring IQ and experience are all much later.
What is generally referred to as PRIME, the athletic prime, occurs near the beginning of a boxers pro career. The REAL prime occurs much later when the most attrinbutes combine together to produce the ost formidable boxer. In my opinion this is at about 35 on average. Later for long range technical boxers.
Torch passing is a purely OTNB argument, same with ATG, HOF, number of world title wins etc etc. I deal with only objective analysis, so I'll simply hand wave that one.
Wladimir bashed the crap out of Puritty who only survived because of an iron chin. Wlad gassed because he was still green, despite 20 fights, most of them had been early round KO's, he'd never even been in those rounds before and learned the hard way that a giant boxer must pace himself. Puritty's experience also played a huge factor here and he had the punching power to exploit the exhausted Wlad.
Brewster was a similar situation but involved a serious medical condition so wasn't even really legitimate, despite being almost in a coma, he still managed to one sidedly bash Brewster until the very end.
Sanders got Wladimir, Sanders was extremely dangerous vs any boxer in the first rounds. Clearly Wladimir underestimated Sanders and didn't treat him seriously, almost exactly the same as LEnnox with McCall. Except close inspection reveals there was a massive sandwich headbutt punch which initiated the entire thing.
Where are the corresponding issues with LEnnox's losses? Or Larry's losses? Or Muhammad's losses?
These guys were all outboxed. Wladimir was never outboxed, even in the fights that he LOST! Same with Vitali! The Klitschko's HAVE NEVER BEEN OUTBOXED! (Unless you want to call the Sander's incident outboxing strictly). It's plainly obvious that Wladimir is much better than any of his conquerers, as was LEnnox.
Mentioning Puritty as a bum is a valid point, but that was one very big, tough, strong, powerful and experienced bum. Conversely you overlook that Muhammad Ali lost to 2 CRUISERWEIGHT BUMS! Jimmy Young and LEon Spinks, who were utter fetherfists. Puritty had a punchers chance, these guys could not punch through the surface tension of water. They simply outboxed Muhammad Ali.
Mike Tyson lost to another featherfist bum in Buster Douglas.
It is understandable how one can lose a fluke to a bummy puncher. But not understandable how a great boxer can lose to a bum by being outboxed unless they weren't as great as you thought they were.
Valuev is one of the slowest boxers of all time and awkward due to his weight with only limited skillset. That's a given. Although his competition is not great, he still went 50-2 and was never stopped. His enormous SIZE obviously COMPENSATES for many things and Valuev would obviously be a major factor in any era because of it!
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Vitali got beat by Lennox get over it. It was punches that caused the damage get over it.
You post crap. It is something we tolerate from you. We have to get over that.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
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Originally Posted by
Master
Vitali got beat by Lennox get over it. It was punches that caused the damage get over it.
You post crap. It is something we tolerate from you. We have to get over that.
Hmm yeah, that's why everyone demanded a rematch, because Vitali was clearly beaten right.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
"What is generally referred to as PRIME, the athletic prime, occurs near the beginning of a boxers pro career. The REAL prime occurs much later when the most attrinbutes combine together to produce the ost formidable boxer. In my opinion this is at about 35 on average. Later for long range technical boxers."
are you sure? this doesn't convince me. Let's talk about in speed and timing only
But note that the decline of all baseball or basketball players that are 38 years old in homeruns and average is enormous. My doubt is How can this be infinitely different for boxers if they are also athletes and human beings?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4AJTrC30jCN3dg
are you still sure that a boxer at 38 years old can be the same? i mean a boxer, that is to say an athlete who besides of being old recieves lots of punches to the head can ever be comparable to one of 28? I think that experience is overrated. There might be exceptions but what is the probability of exceptions appearing? 4% maybe? That's what I think
Note: I understand your other arguments though but what i for now think is that age influences a lot more that what you can see but that might be only until you explain me why boxers don't decline a lot but just a little because it might also be that a 48 years old boxer is dominating because the state of teh division is not the same than when he was 29 or so
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Just talking out of his ass there have been very few champs that have been that old. At 38 you lose alot of your speed and stamina which is huge deal to a lot of fighters experience can go only so far. Most fighter are done by 33 to 35 a few make it to there late 30's like 38 very few do.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fairyrak
"What is generally referred to as PRIME, the athletic prime, occurs near the beginning of a boxers pro career. The REAL prime occurs much later when the most attrinbutes combine together to produce the ost formidable boxer. In my opinion this is at about 35 on average. Later for long range technical boxers."
are you sure? this doesn't convince me. Let's talk about in speed and timing only
But note that the decline of all baseball or basketball players that are 38 years old in homeruns and average is enormous. My doubt is How can this be infinitely different for boxers if they are also athletes and human beings?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4AJTrC30jCN3dg
are you still sure that a boxer at 38 years old can be the same? i mean a boxer, that is to say an athlete who besides of being old recieves lots of punches to the head can ever be comparable to one of 28? I think that experience is overrated. There might be exceptions but what is the probability of exceptions appearing? 4% maybe? That's what I think
Note: I understand your other arguments though but what i for now think is that age influences a lot more that what you can see but that might be only until you explain me why boxers don't decline a lot but just a little because it might also be that a 48 years old boxer is dominating because the state of teh division is not the same than when he was 29 or so
Yes I am sure. Because we see boxers of 38 champions across the board, and even older boxers who are still atleast competitive. Why the difference?
Because Baseball is fully reflex/timing dependant, which I have read makes a decline in the early 30's, other than that it isn't a really athletic sport. Basketball is a highly athletic sport and heavily reliant on agility and speed which begin to decline even earlier in the 20's.
The difference with boxing is that these qualities do decline, but what might be termed "ring-craft", "ring-IQ", or "boxing-brain" adds a dimension to boxing which is not so prevalent in these other sports.
Sometimes the young athletic lion of 20 fights will beat the veteran of 60 fights.
But sometimes the veteran of 60 fights experience will be able to overcome the young lion as well.
It can also be explained like this. Young boxers fight WITH their athleticism. Older boxers fight more with their head almost trying NOT to be athletic.
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Re: Prime Holyfield vs prime Joe Frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr140
Just talking out of his ass there have been very few champs that have been that old. At 38 you lose alot of your speed and stamina which is huge deal to a lot of fighters experience can go only so far. Most fighter are done by 33 to 35 a few make it to there late 30's like 38 very few do.
Historically yes..
As time marches forward you might as well get used to it, because the so called "prime" age for a boxer, and the "competitive" ages are going to keep getting older and older all the time. Come back in ten years when 40+ yr old competitors and champs in boxing are common and then tell me the same thing.
