Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

I think the people overrating him do it far worse then the people underrating him. I mean you guys who are his fans say he it like number 1 heavyweight and only Ali beats him bit overboard. People underatting him say he is just out side the top ten because he lost all his big fights which is some what true and has facts to it because it happened. I think he is in the lower part of the ten he had good run which was short but got win over a older Larry who still did good things. The thing holds him back is he lost to Douglas while in his prime but took him lightly no excuse still lost, then lost his big fights with a way older Holyfeild with heart problems and Lewis who was also older then him. Then he went on to lose to cans before quitting on the ground which at that point i dont blame him the guy i forget who but he was not on the level.

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Originally Posted by Boxer4life

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Let's clear up the Cus D'Amato thing too where people say Tyson would've gone further if only Cus didn't die...

19 year old Mike Tyson had been a professional for only 8 months when Cus D'Amato died in Nov 1985.
At the time of Cus' death, Tyson was still fightin' no-hopers and never-wases with not a single ranked fighter on his entire 11 fight resume.

Tyson won a version of the title in Nov 1986, but many point to the 1988 Spinks fight as Tyson's peak when he won the LINEAL title.
1988 is a long ways from Cus' death in 1985 in fighter years and development.


The first time I ever saw Mike Tyson was on tv the month AFTER Cus died, Dec 1985, the Sam Scaff fight, and Tyson looked amazing.
Yeah, when Tyson the contender was just getting known, the old man had already passed by then. Tyson looked better AFTER Cus was gone, and against better competition too.

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i think it just lasted him for a while, after fame came, he discpline slipped and he kept beating guys only because of his strong foundation, i dont think , and this is purely opinion, that tyson was a complete project, i think he couldve develped further and possibly never have been beaten

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His style always had an expiration date on it

I think he would beat anyone he lost to in his prime except one person. Holyfield.

Holyfield is the one person that would take all his punches and still out work Mike.

If you watch the second Holyfield Tyson fight, Tyson looked pretty good. I would almost say prime Tyson. I would love to have seen that fight play out. Holyfield would have won on points probably but none the less a good fight.

Not to mention Holyfield was head butting the sht outta Tyson. Im not saying Tyson should have bit his ear off but the ref should have took a point away at least. And with Holyfield head butting like he was, Tyson's dumbass (sorry Mike) was bound to do something stupid.

Who ever says Tyson is just an over rated puncher doesn't know the game. His headmovment is probably the best of all time.

That last round where Tyson went into fury mode, hurt Holyfield but he could not sustain it as a prime version would have. That would have been good to see.

Mater disagree when it comes to Tyson but you make some points and Holyfeild vs Tyson in there pump would of been something. But when Holyfield looked out he just come back like he was never hurt i say he still takes a close win with his head and holding when he needed to.

Could Holyfield have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

When Holy was Cruiserweight Champ, the limit was 190 lbs, but Holyfield usually weighed in several lbs under at 186 lbs, 187, 188 lbs.
Holy wasn't sweating off lbs to make weight, he came in under, and he was like 25 years old at the time.

In April 1988, Holyfield scaled 190 lbs against Carlos DeLeon for his final Cruiserweight fight.
In Dec 1988, Holyfield scaled 212 lbs ripped against Pinklon Thomas.

Mr.Olympia legend Lee Haney was in charge of bulking up Holyfield back then.

Holyfield was a Great fighter, but how much did the steroids contribute? Steroids won't make a good fighter into a Great fighter, but I wonder how much did it contribute, and could he have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Could Holyfield have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

When Holy was Cruiserweight Champ, the limit was 190 lbs, but Holyfield usually weighed in several lbs under at 186 lbs, 187, 188 lbs.
Holy wasn't sweating off lbs to make weight, he came in under, and he was like 25 years old at the time.

In April 1988, Holyfield scaled 190 lbs against Carlos DeLeon for his final Cruiserweight fight.
In Dec 1988, Holyfield scaled 212 lbs ripped against Pinklon Thomas.

Mr.Olympia legend Lee Haney was in charge of bulking up Holyfield back then.

Holyfield was a Great fighter, but how much did the steroids contribute? Steroids won't make a good fighter into a Great fighter, but I wonder how much did it contribute, and could he have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

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Roids can definitely be the difference between a good fighter and a great fighter. You take any fighter and give them extra strength, speed and stamina and they will go up a level at least. Especially if they are a smart fighter.

Holyfield would have been great anyway but it could have been the difference in some fights as much as I hate to say it. IF he used roids I would loose much respect for him and that hurts me bad cause I LOVE Hoyfield.

I say "if he used roids" and I hope im not just in denial.

It really makes you think tho, how many ATG's have used roids?

Tommy Morrison was a good fighter, certainly Top 5 out of about a thousand licensed Heavyweight boxers. He didn't have that little extra bit of talent that makes a man Top 3 instead of top 5, and Morrison was on steroids.

Plenty of guys in MMA have tested positive, and they were not the outstanding fighters.

EDIT:
"If he used roids", :) Of course he used them!
From about 1988 till now, for 25 years, he's used them!

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Tommy Morrison was a good fighter, certainly Top 5 out of about a thousand licensed Heavyweight boxers. He didn't have that little extra bit of talent that makes a man Top 3 instead of top 5, and Morrison was on steroids.

Plenty of guys in MMA have tested positive, and they were not the outstanding fighters.

EDIT:
"If he used roids", :) Of course he used them!
From about 1988 till now, for 25 years, he's used them!

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I know Ive read about it, im in denial probably. I mean look at how hes built.

Yet Holyfeild has never been tested positive for a fight so if he has for 25 years and has not been caught then i am sure ever pro who does not do blood testing is on them. I mean if your career on the line and you can get better why not i honestly think they should be legal because everyone is using anyway. I mean with no retirement plan might as well take what you can get because fans only like you when you win and forget you when you lose. So if your a fighter i can see it being pretty easy chose to make to be honest with you.

Too many "what ifs" with Tyson. Pretty much excuses for the shortcomings the whole world saw during his career. Its like saying that if Hatton had a better defence he would have beaten Floyd and Manny and thus become an ATG. Truth is he didn't and Mike couldn't overcome his own hubris. That to me is the biggest nail in his coffin, when you try to say that he beats so and so. Ali, Foreman, Marciano, Louis, etc. were deep down bona fide bad motherfuckers and would not fall for all the street bullshit that worked on lesser fighters and carried away fans.

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Originally Posted by jahmez

Too many "what ifs" with Tyson. Pretty much excuses for the shortcomings the whole world saw during his career. Its like saying that if Hatton had a better defence he would have beaten Floyd and Manny and thus become an ATG. Truth is he didn't and Mike couldn't overcome his own hubris. That to me is the biggest nail in his coffin, when you try to say that he beats so and so. Ali, Foreman, Marciano, Louis, etc. were deep down bona fide bad motherfuckers and would not fall for all the street bullshit that worked on lesser fighters and carried away fans.

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Cant argue with that really. Doesn't take away from 44 KO's, 23 (I believe) in the first round tho. I don't even think Foreman could match 20+ first round KO's in his 80 fights.

Your right tho about the what if's. What if Tyson was mentally stronger? What if Tyson wouldn't have bit Holyfields ear off? What if Tyson would have came into the first Holyfield fight like he did the second? What if he didn't go to prison?

He could have been much greater that's for sure.

Hs first round "walking and talking knockouts" were just that!! Hand picked opponents who were doomed!!! If he couldn't dispatch those guys he was taking a step back!!! Alot of his early opponents came from the leading "trial horse" camp in the world!!! Those wins are for a record book, other than reading that crap once their worthless print!! Ray.

Tyson was good at smashing cans i give him that but he beat some good contenders as well and unified a divsion which is good. He just missd out on his big wins like Holyfeild and Lewis to be top guy of the 90's not to mention the lose to Douglas hurts him kinda bad.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Could Holyfield have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

When Holy was Cruiserweight Champ, the limit was 190 lbs, but Holyfield usually weighed in several lbs under at 186 lbs, 187, 188 lbs.
Holy wasn't sweating off lbs to make weight, he came in under, and he was like 25 years old at the time.

In April 1988, Holyfield scaled 190 lbs against Carlos DeLeon for his final Cruiserweight fight.
In Dec 1988, Holyfield scaled 212 lbs ripped against Pinklon Thomas.

Mr.Olympia legend Lee Haney was in charge of bulking up Holyfield back then.

Holyfield was a Great fighter, but how much did the steroids contribute? Steroids won't make a good fighter into a Great fighter, but I wonder how much did it contribute, and could he have done it at Heavyweight without the juice?

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Roids can definitely be the difference between a good fighter and a great fighter. You take any fighter and give them extra strength, speed and stamina and they will go up a level at least. Especially if they are a smart fighter.

Holyfield would have been great anyway but it could have been the difference in some fights as much as I hate to say it. IF he used roids I would loose much respect for him and that hurts me bad cause I LOVE Hoyfield.

I say "if he used roids" and I hope im not just in denial.

It really makes you think tho, how many ATG's have used roids?

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I actually just saw an inter view with Tyson where he said if he could do it all over again he would use steroids to enhance his ability, if he said that makes you think how many guys out there do it, considering most boxers have a whatever it takes mentality

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

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That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

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That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

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Then why wasn't shane mosley the best ever?
In boxing, it is still all about being ring smart and courageous (because to be a great fighter, to put it all together, you dare punches, go to them and let them miss by a hair) Big muscles don't give you big balls or big brains.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

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That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

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Then why wasn't shane mosley the best ever?
In boxing, it is still all about being ring smart and courageous (because to be a great fighter, to put it all together, you dare punches, go to them and let them miss by a hair) Big muscles don't give you big balls or big brains.

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Because most other people were doing them no doubt.I'm on the fence on this one because there are and have been fighters in the past and to a lesser extent today where steroids wont make a difference in the outcome. In an odd way that may be why they take them.They simply have no shot without them.

If they improve bat rotation, pitch speed and distance coverage by a short stop then they will improve power, hand speed and reflexes in boxing. Is that enough at the highest level? As you say probably not which makes boxing unique among sports.

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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No one said shit about JMM being on roids until he came out for the last Pac fight shredded. And what a coincidence, he finally got the ko.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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Morrison wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Lennox.
Vargas wasn't a cream of the crop fighter De La Hoya
Vinny Pazienza wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Roy Jones.
Sonnen wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Silva
Sean Sherk wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like BJ Penn.

Most of these guys wouldn't have made it to that level without roids.

So where does roids come into the picture when it comes to cream vs cream?

It does not because most of the cream is on the shit anyway i mean if all these people been using for so long never been caught. How are we to know that they never use if they never got caught during a fight. All the people were most caught after words not during or before the fight so shit hard to say right.

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Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

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Boxing isn't baseball, $#!tbrains...

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

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Originally Posted by Boxer4life

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

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You left out Mariusz Wach who also tried to use a glove that had padding removed from it...but that's cool.

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Originally Posted by Boxer4life

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

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I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

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Yep. In previous fights, Marquez had hurt Pacquiao and even staggered him with the right cross counter, even at 125 lbs, but he wasn't landing it exactly right. After 42 rds, he finally landed it exactly right. And, Boxer4Life, bigger muscles don't make you a better puncher...

without a doubt tyson was the most exciting thing that has happened in boxing in my memory

i doubt i will ever experience that kind of thril again

i think a prime tyson would have beaten Ali, im not sure he would have beaten the bigger fighters/champions since his reign but its a different era now

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Boxer4life

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

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I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

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Exactly, he had three previous fights in which he couldn't ko Pac. Then all the sudden he comes out shredded and gets the ko. Looks devious imo.

Who knows maybe JMM wasn't even on roids but one cant say that doesn't seem iffy.

Most of the reason you guys are giving me that steroids doesn't matter just proves that they do matter in my eyes. I don't know we must be on two different wave lengths.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

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Ok could Holyfield have beat Bowe in there second fight without roids? Ask an ATG, Hoyfield, if roids mean the difference between good and great.

I love Holyfield but if you research there is some serious evidence against him.

Yea camboy but your missing some points your self if Holyfeild was using steroids his whole career which is like a 26 year career and never tested positive for a fight. So if a guy that high profile was never caught in or before or after a fight then it does not really matter because if he can get away with it then everyone damn near can. I think most people today are on roids or other forums of it and have been for a long time. So when the top guys face one another it does not matter who using because good chance both are so who really cares.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Yea camboy but your missing some points your self if Holyfeild was using steroids his whole career which is like a 26 year career and never tested positive for a fight. So if a guy that high profile was never caught in or before or after a fight then it does not really matter because if he can get away with it then everyone damn near can. I think most people today are on roids or other forums of it and have been for a long time. So when the top guys face one another it does not matter who using because good chance both are so who really cares.

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I see that point but to say who really cares because everyone is on it is bad logic I believe.

I'll tell you why I care is because its cheating. What would the fighter have been without it. Take a smart fighter who is a journey men level fighter and give him roids and he could be a top contender.

Take a contender give him roids and all the sudden hes fighting in championship fights.

If you give an athlete PED's its gonna take him up a couple levels just like if you take those PED's away its gonna bring them down a couple levels.

Take Barry Bonds 70 some home runs in a season and take that down to 60. Take a fighter who uses PED's SD victories and turn those into UD losses.

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Originally Posted by cambay411

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Boxer4life

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

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the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

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I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

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Exactly, he had three previous fights in which he couldn't ko Pac. Then all the sudden he comes out shredded and gets the ko. Looks devious imo.

Who knows maybe JMM wasn't even on roids but one cant say that doesn't seem iffy.

Most of the reason you guys are giving me that steroids doesn't matter just proves that they do matter in my eyes. I don't know we must be on two different wave lengths.

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I wouldn't be at all surprised if Marquez(or most anyone) is/was on roids, but to attribute the Pac KO to that alone is nuts man. PAcquiao got reckless with seconds left in the round having had JMM hurt himself, and JUMPED into the punch. You never ever see that in top fights, his feet were both off the ground when it landed! I'm not sure my mother wouldn't knock some guys out if they tried that. Otherwise it's exactly the same kind of counter Marquez hit him with plenty throughout the first 3 fights. If those two could fight in exactly that same form 50 times, that would have only happened the one time. Nothing iffy about the KO whatsoever.

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Take a smart fighter who is a journey men level fighter and give him roids and he could be a top contender.

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No other way to say it, this is just absolute nonsense...

One of the main reasons that fighters use steroids is for fast recovery from injuries in an injury-plagued sport.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

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Take a smart fighter who is a journey men level fighter and give him roids and he could be a top contender.

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No other way to say it, this is just absolute nonsense...

One of the main reasons that fighters use steroids is for fast recovery from injuries in an injury-plagued sport.

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A smart fighter who lacks athleticism will benefit from the strength, speed, endurance, reflex and etc boost than a fighter who is already gifted in those areas. That's why I said smart fighter.

Anyone, one of the main reasons that fighters use performance enhancing drugs is for the strength, speed and etc boost. Of course they use it for fast recovery too.

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Originally Posted by erics44

without a doubt tyson was the most exciting thing that has happened in boxing in my memory

i doubt i will ever experience that kind of thril again

i think a prime tyson would have beaten Ali, im not sure he would have beaten the bigger fighters/champions since his reign but its a different era now

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He did beat Frank Bruno twice....and we all know how you feel about him

Ftr I also do not believe that Marquez's new chiseled look means he was juicing. When a guy of his stature goes on a special diet and hits the weights and tones up, a couple of pounds looks much more pronounced then the same weight gained by bigger men.

In addition his weight gain from the third fight was minimal and in fact only a pound. He actually dropped 2 pounds prior to the 4th fight against Fedchenko. If the guy was juicing surly he would put more weight on then a pound.