After 10 pages you and Milmacas are still the two the forum is laughing at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
:LOLATYOU:
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After 10 pages you and Milmacas are still the two the forum is laughing at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
:LOLATYOU:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius RainAfter 10 pages you and Milmacas are still the two the forum is laughing at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
:LOLATYOU:
According to who is online right now the only one laughing is me, cause you got PacRoids balls in your mouth. I figured out Pac must be on Roids...cause his balls have shrunk enough that his ball lickers can mouth his balls and not gag and still type. You probably think that guy in your avatar has changed the country too lol
GB is completely and utterly wrong on this. Deflecting questions with questions of your own is an essential part of debating in the real world. Clearly he has never watched prime ministers question times, or witnessed a trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyYou missed the point completely. Answering a question with a question is done all the time in the real world. In your educated world, it is a rule you learned about in your "debating/speech class" that apparently has labeled people incorrectly outside of the structure in which you were taught. Inside of the rules you follow, the definition may work, but not outside of the rules. And It may very well be the guy you are talking about is a mindless idiot. however, I'm not defending him.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogYou do not answer a question with a question, just the basics of debating. You're talking about some sociology class you took, I"m talking about some debating/speech class that I took for my general ed years ago in college. 2 entirely different fields.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyI don't disagree that answering a question with a question is an incomplete response to the subject or premise behind the question. I mean to point out that it doesn't mean the responder is not a "critical thinker" or suggests the responder has "poor critical thinking skills".Quote:
Originally Posted by milesTo be fair to GB, I would argue that if a genuine question is asked, then you are obligated to provide an answer to the best of your ability. To have a question and then randomly retort a quick fire question back. Well, that does imply a complete lack of ability to come to terms with the question that was being asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyAnswering a question is 'not' poor critical thinking skills. It's just the basics taught in sociology by a structured thinkers. Answering a question with a question is complex thinking that implies an understood you. The fault of the understood you is that it assume all parties have the same evidence and premise. This is where comprehensive communication fails and why structured arguments are used in Law.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogNo it's the simple facts of debating. You don't answer a question by asking a question, it usually means the other party has no rebuttal or seriously lacks critical thinking skills. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
thats the biggest load of bosh ive ever heard soz
of all the crazy opinions on this thread / forum you have to come up with a corker thats not boxing related
Question: Are you going to eat that? Answer: Would you eat that? What is the "understood you"? Mold, fungus, aesthetically displeasing? Or perhaps "Would you eat that?" is really a command rather than a question.
Typically answering a question with a question is directed at the originator to think more about the original question, rather than the superficial.
You should provide a decent response and only then fire back with a question of your own. Your own post is interesting, but in terms of the back and forth from earlier, I see no reason why a decent response could not have been produced rather than a quickfire question back whence the response that GB himself gave. I'm taking no sides in the argument as I think Hornfinger has at times made good points, but a question followed by a question? It's not the best way to stimulate debate. "I'll ask you a question!". "Well, I will ignore your question and ask another one!". I would rather ignore the person after that kind of exchange.
Arguing is natural to everyone, and many people don't structure their arguments when 'writing' responses. A person can be very good at critical thinking and analysis but may have complex thoughts that are difficult to organize in a structured response. They may have lazy communication skills, making it difficult for them to get their point across and thus resort to that laziness by answering a question with a question. It can also mean as I've stated before questioned response that is by design. It does not imply that they are poor critical thinkers as sociology educators teach, i.e. that application is for a structured rules that are followed by the participants.
It seriously implies not being able to give a decent rebuttal on the question and a complete sidetracking of it in this case to another topic. And I'm pretty sure the guy I was debating with isn't some deep critical thinker.
I asked how come there were barely any outrage over other recent catchweight bouts and got fired right back with some question that has no relation at all to the topic. Now this topic has veered into Pacquiao taking drugs by the same guy who can't answer other people's questions, when the topic was originally about catchweights.
My point is, Answering a question with a question is common and has it's applications. It does not mean a person using this method of debating does not have critical thinking skills. Since you don't believe me, here is a general link about the methodology. Socratic method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. You can easily find others in a google search explaining the methodology and the history of the definition.
BTW: Debating and Speech are taught under the category of Social Sciences.
Sorry for the OT, Guys...
I agree with GB. If you deflect a question with another question then you don't really have much of a debate. If someone is going to avoid your question by asking another question then you might as well ask them another question back or even repeat your own original question. Maybe they would just repeat their question or else ask another one, but at the end of the day the discussion is effectively over. Who wants to listen to a bunch of people asking questions, but never actually answering anything? That isn't debating at all and indicates an inability to answer the question or at the least a refusal to engage in proper debate. It is silly.
Well in that case get back to your wikileaks thread and answer my qestions!Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
1.How have Israel been made to look bad by the wikileak revelations,give examples.
2.What revelelations about America have been damaging for them? I would argue that the leaks are mostly mundane apart from the insight into the true sentiment in the middle east, which is that the Arab nations hate each other as much as they hate the Jews, and that they regard Iran, NOT Israel as the biggest threat to the region.
3. You dismissed the views of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Egypt and Syria relating to Iran as being irrelevent because they are dictatorships and not democracies. What true democracies are there in the Middle East? I can only think of one...........but you they hate them worst of all ;D
i don't really care that a joke like you thinks my posts are rediculous. I wouldn't even regard you as a boxing fan because from what I've read you have no clue what your talking about and the fact this post i'm replying to is you running around chasing your tale shows that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Who has said it made no difference? We are saying that being weight drained was not a factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
There are many people on here arguing that if Marquez is to fight Manny the fight shouldn't be above 140 because Marquez doesn't carry the weight as well as Manny, and that it is fairer to fight at junior welter than welter as Marquez is not a welterweight.
The argument isn't that Manny will be weight drained at 140, he could make the weight no problem. It's just that he is suited to a lower weight class.
Well it's the same for Manny. Manny is not nearly as big as Antonio Margarito, and is considerably smaller than Miguel Cotto also. He's NOT a junior middleweight. He entered the ring against Margarito weighing 148lbs, compared to Margarito's 165.
If it wasn't a catchweight Margarito would have likely entered the ring at 170. That would be a 22lb weight advantage. That's a big difference!
How can you not see this? When two guys are different sizes they have find somewhere to meet, a weight to fight at. Against Cotto it was agreed 145, against Margarito it was agreed 150. You could make exactly the same argument for fighting Cotto at full welter, why not at 154? And why not fight Margarito at 160?
The higher they go the more it favours the bigger man because Manny isn't gaining weight. He's being massively outweighed.
I've said it many times but I will reiterate it. Your posts are ridiculous.
Now I'm going to rip your moronic post apart.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
Right there is a huge contradiction. Weight is a factor and does make a difference but weight drainage wasn't a factor. And my posts are rediculous? Yours are just all out dumb.
You're now saying dropping down the weight does make a difference and so pac is trying to weaken his opponants before getting in the ring. I thought you disagreed with me mr dildo? It seems you don't know which side of the arguement you're on
Again this is something that I have been saying. Manny has never made 147 on the scales at a weigh in, neither has marquez so why fight at 147? Again I thought you were arguing with my rediculous post? you're agreeing with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
The thread title, must I remind you is 'De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st'Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
No one is saying Manny Pacquiao will be drained at 140. the thread is if Manny Pacquioa beat ODH, Cotto and margarito legitly. And the answer is no because in each fight he either made his opponant go down to an unattainable weight class or fight them at a catch weight. And as you said in your first sentance of this moronic post 'no one has said it made no difference.'
TBH I actually feel like I'm explaining this to a retarded child....
SO DON'T TAKE THE FIGHT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
If you can't fight Antonio Margarito at 154 then don't get in the ring with him. If you're not a junior middle weight DON'T FIGHT FOR THE FUCKING JUNIOR MIDDLE WEIGHT TITLE! It's that simple. Cotto fights at 147 for a reason. That's the weight he fights best at. Not a pound below. Manny and his team knew that and thats why they made the catch weight.
Honestly Dildo are you fucking thick as pig shit? By the way that's rhetorical.
SEE ABOVE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
And why would Toni have entered at 170? because that's what his body naturally goes to function at. If Toni is normally around 170 in the ring but wasn't for the pacroid fight that tells me one thing. He was weight drained due to making the catch weight.
Many fighters have entered the ring with their opponant weighing 22 pounds + heavier and they've gone on and won the fight.
AGAIN IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE WEIGHT PARAMATERS OF A DIVISION DON'T FIGHT THERE!
This is rediculously silly. Every year fighters move up weight classes with no monaing complaining or catch weights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
If you can't compete at the higher weight class because the fighters up there are 'too big' then don't go up there.
HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT!?
THEN HE SHOULDN'T FIGHT AT THAT WEIGHT (how many times have I said that now? are you getting the message yet?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
:beat:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
I have just written up a fairly substantial response in the appropriate thread, though I didn't see this post so maybe didn't explain everything. Questions, bloody questions. In future I am just going to counter you with yet more questions! If it's good enough for Jesus....:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell in that case get back to your wikileaks thread and answer my qestions!Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
1.How have Israel been made to look bad by the wikileak revelations,give examples.
2.What revelelations about America have been damaging for them? I would argue that the leaks are mostly mundane apart from the insight into the true sentiment in the middle east, which is that the Arab nations hate each other as much as they hate the Jews, and that they regard Iran, NOT Israel as the biggest threat to the region.
3. You dismissed the views of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Egypt and Syria relating to Iran as being irrelevent because they are dictatorships and not democracies. What true democracies are there in the Middle East? I can only think of one...........but you they hate them worst of all ;D
C'mon people.
CATCHWEIGHT IS NOT AN ISSUE BETWEEN PACQUIAO AND MARQUEZ.
They have fought before and it is obvious they are of the same size.
The bout against Margarito was a LMW fight and Pacquiao didn't even weighed as a WW.
So as for Marquez-Pacquiao III, for fucckkk's sake let's get it on!
Be it at 140, 147, or 154..Marquez can weigh whatever weight he wants to put on.
Yeah yeah he did not look good at 140..but he was against Floyd!! and like I said, he doesn't need to put on any extra weight against Pac if he wants to..the important thing is he can shape up to his best form. 135 is fine. And so does Pacquiao. We just want two fighters at their best physical condition.
Why the hell demand the P4P king to go down in weight? Is he afraid of the 142-144 version of Pacquiao? Man up. Man up Marquez. No overpricing. No weight demands. You're not in position to do so.
Firstly, it's ridiculous, not rediculous, although it does not surprise me that you are consistently unable to spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfingeri don't really care that a joke like you thinks my posts are rediculous. I wouldn't even regard you as a boxing fan because from what I've read you have no clue what your talking about and the fact this post i'm replying to is you running around chasing your tale shows that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Who has said it made no difference? We are saying that being weight drained was not a factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
There are many people on here arguing that if Marquez is to fight Manny the fight shouldn't be above 140 because Marquez doesn't carry the weight as well as Manny, and that it is fairer to fight at junior welter than welter as Marquez is not a welterweight.
The argument isn't that Manny will be weight drained at 140, he could make the weight no problem. It's just that he is suited to a lower weight class.
Well it's the same for Manny. Manny is not nearly as big as Antonio Margarito, and is considerably smaller than Miguel Cotto also. He's NOT a junior middleweight. He entered the ring against Margarito weighing 148lbs, compared to Margarito's 165.
If it wasn't a catchweight Margarito would have likely entered the ring at 170. That would be a 22lb weight advantage. That's a big difference!
How can you not see this? When two guys are different sizes they have find somewhere to meet, a weight to fight at. Against Cotto it was agreed 145, against Margarito it was agreed 150. You could make exactly the same argument for fighting Cotto at full welter, why not at 154? And why not fight Margarito at 160?
The higher they go the more it favours the bigger man because Manny isn't gaining weight. He's being massively outweighed.
I've said it many times but I will reiterate it. Your posts are ridiculous.
Now I'm going to rip your moronic post apart.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
Right there is a huge contradiction. Weight is a factor and does make a difference but weight drainage wasn't a factor. And my posts are rediculous? Yours are just all out dumb.
You're now saying dropping down the weight does make a difference and so pac is trying to weaken his opponants before getting in the ring. I thought you disagreed with me mr dildo? It seems you don't know which side of the arguement you're on
Again this is something that I have been saying. Manny has never made 147 on the scales at a weigh in, neither has marquez so why fight at 147? Again I thought you were arguing with my rediculous post? you're agreeing with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
The thread title, must I remind you is 'De La Hoya: Pacquiao makes fighters lose on the scales 1st'Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
No one is saying Manny Pacquiao will be drained at 140. the thread is if Manny Pacquioa beat ODH, Cotto and margarito legitly. And the answer is no because in each fight he either made his opponant go down to an unattainable weight class or fight them at a catch weight. And as you said in your first sentance of this moronic post 'no one has said it made no difference.'
TBH I actually feel like I'm explaining this to a retarded child....
SO DON'T TAKE THE FIGHT!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
If you can't fight Antonio Margarito at 154 then don't get in the ring with him. If you're not a junior middle weight DON'T FIGHT FOR THE FUCKING JUNIOR MIDDLE WEIGHT TITLE! It's that simple. Cotto fights at 147 for a reason. That's the weight he fights best at. Not a pound below. Manny and his team knew that and thats why they made the catch weight.
Honestly Dildo are you fucking thick as pig shit? By the way that's rhetorical.
SEE ABOVE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
And why would Toni have entered at 170? because that's what his body naturally goes to function at. If Toni is normally around 170 in the ring but wasn't for the pacroid fight that tells me one thing. He was weight drained due to making the catch weight.
Many fighters have entered the ring with their opponant weighing 22 pounds + heavier and they've gone on and won the fight.
AGAIN IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE WEIGHT PARAMATERS OF A DIVISION DON'T FIGHT THERE!
This is rediculously silly. Every year fighters move up weight classes with no monaing complaining or catch weights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
If you can't compete at the higher weight class because the fighters up there are 'too big' then don't go up there.
HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT!?
THEN HE SHOULDN'T FIGHT AT THAT WEIGHT (how many times have I said that now? are you getting the message yet?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
:beat:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dildo
And you are again missing the point totally. People weigh different amounts. When two fighters of different size fight each other for a fight to be fair it needs to take place at a weight where both are able to function effectively.
Manny, as you pointed out has never weighed more than 148 lbs, so fighting at any weight above that, his weight disadvantage will only increase. He won't be gaining any weight but his opponent's will be.
So he fought Margarito for the 154 lb title, whilst he weighed only 148 lbs, and Margarito weighed 165. The 24 hour weigh in as I have said many times favours the naturally bigger man as he is able to rehydrate far above the maximum weight limit within that time limit.
It's also NOT an established part of boxing tradition. A guick google search shows that 24 hours weigh in's were introduced in 1983 to appease the media companies who wanted to hype the weigh in themselves. This now allowed men naturally too big for a weight class to compete in it.
Back to Margarito. Margarito has been a career welterweight, fighting at 147 lbs. Against Margarito he weighed in at just over 146. He was not weight drained against Manny. That wasn't the factor.
That factor was that as Margarito is much bigger than Manny, given the 24 hour weigh in discrepency he would be able to rehydrate to up to 170 lbs for a 154 lb fight. Manny meanwhile would not even get up to 150lbs, so he would have been fighting somebody who weighed over 20 lbs more.
The cathweight evens it out. The truly fair thing would be to have fighters enter the ring at the weight at which they are fighting, which is what happens is horse racing and Formula One for example. Under these circumstances Manny would probably even be able to win the middleweight title.
The catchweight is there to stamp out an prexistent bias. Should he be allowed to have fought for a vacant title belt? Well I guess that depends on your opinion. Personally I would rather Manny and Margarito, two established multiple world champions got to fight for a vacant strap than two ranking contenders. To me having the p4p number one best fighter in the world as a world champion is more credible than letting it go to the winner of Vanes Maritroysan and Ryan Rhodes for example but I guess you can disagree.
But argument against Margarito or Cotto being weight drained is simply false. They were not. Neither has even hinted at it being the case.
The simple maths is as follows.
Manny weighs a max of 148 lbs. He is prepared to let his opponent weigh 165, but not 170 for a 154 lb title.
You want fairness, make them enter the ring at no more than 154. Then see who wins. I reckon Manny would even beat Martinez under those conditions. And guess what, that would be fair according even to you. If you can't fight effectively at the weight class limit, then you shouldn't be fighting there right, your words not mine. Manny will fight any fighter in the world at 154 who enters the ring against him at 154 lbs. And he would likely beat them all too.
Yes you should stick to correcting my spelling cuz you do a very bad job of debating boxing.
It's the job of the fighter going up in weight to accomodate the weight class.
IT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE WEIGHTCLASS TO ACCOMODATE THE FIGHTER COMING UP!
You're whole argument is irrelevant bullshit.
So now you want to go to same day weigh ins just to make it easier for manny pacquiao? What a load of crap.
The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
The sport is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboThe 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.
So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.
Simple.
I agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerThe sport is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboThe 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.
So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.
Simple.
Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerThe sport is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboThe 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.
So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.
Simple.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.
hornfinger,
no matter how much you and i try to explain to these guys, they can never understand that pacquiao has always looked for way to gain an unfair advantage. i guess the kool-aid gets addicting that they're going to have to go to rehab to get off it.
I ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerRight and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerThe sport is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboThe 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.
So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.
Simple.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.
But the answer is no.
Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?
Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........
Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.
Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.
Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.
The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.
What part of this do you disagree with?
Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................
And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.
So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.
Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.
Hornfinger
Right and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.[/QUOTE]
But the 154 fighter did not fight at 154. He fought at 165. This is what Bilbo hs been saying about that 24 hour weight in. Those weren't the weight that they come in for the fight.
If Cotto thought that he could not beat Pacquiao at 145 then he would not have agreed to 145.
The ODLH fight should not even be debatable. Those were under Oscar's terms. And Manny had to go up 2 weight divisions!!!
And so what if Manny didn't think he could win those fights at those weights (and this is your opinion btw, unless you're going to tell us that you spoke to Manny), the thing is he won those fights at the weights that even his opponents didn't think are unreasonable for them to achieve without compromising their competitiveness.
The other side of this is that Pacquiao has always looked for a way for the opponent not to get an unfair advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
It genuinely baffles me how myopic the Pac critics are. They simply cannot see that stipulation to fight at an agreed weight works in both directions.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCornerThe other side of this is that Pacquiao has always looked for a way for the opponent not to get an unfair advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
If you are fighting for a 154 title, then I (and you) agree completely that they should fight at no more than 154, but not be restricted to having to weigh less.
But unfortunately, thanks to the modern preference 24 hour weigh ins, the maximum weight limit is no longer applicable. Fighters routinely weigh 5, 10, sometimes 15, and even 20lbs above the weight limit by the time they step over the ropes.
If losing weight is a disadvantage, how is gaining it not an advantage?
It's such a simple concept to grasp. Manny is happy to fight a 165 lb Margarito, bu he didn't want to face a 170lb Margarito seeing as he himself would only weigh 148 lbs in both instances.
As Margarito is a career welterweight I don't understand the claim that he was weight drained at all.
He must have been a corpse coming in at 146 against Shane Mosley. I wonder if Margarito and Manny fought at the full welterweight limit of 147 lbs that that people would complain even more?
Just the idea that Margarito was struggling to fight at an almost career high weight is really really baffling to me.
look, if pacquiao was willing to step on up with the bigger boys, it's his own damned fault he was the smaller man. what the hell does he expect? if he didn't think he could beat these bigger guys in the first place at the proper weight, then why is he challenging them for? the thing is this, for all you pactards, i'm going to say that his career record has been very impressive but it has also been questionable because of his insistence on draining bigger guys. and please do not tell me he hasn't ducked anybody! he's fought bigger guys who were very slow but on the other hand, he's ducked younger, fast, in their prime fighters and that even the pactardos cannot deny this. his career has been a bevy of contradictions from his signing two contracts with top rank and golden boy, being afraid of a simple blood test, (this after asking mayweather for many concessions). the only concession mayweather made was the blood test and he wouldn't do it. why? why do any of you pacquiao fans think he didn't want to take the damn test? because he didn't want mayweather dictating to him? that is BULLSHIT and you all know it. who in their right mind would turn down $40m because you're afraid of a little blood when this cat has his body covered with tattoos. i'm sorry but anybody who believes this shit is just so either blind or shallow. mayweather sr. just came out in a statement and said if pacquiao wants a fight, he'd have to agree to a blood test. and as usual, pacquiao has been silent. the fact is this, pacquiao and arum never had any intention to fight mayweather. it was their way of petering out because they know their boy is no match for the skills of mayweather.
He expects to put on a good show. That he did. Quite impressive for the smaller man to beat the bigger man. Actually demolishing them is the proper word. I doubt he had serious misgivings about winning when he signed the contracts against cotto/margo. Why blame it all on manny if cotto and tony signed their respective contracts? They didn't even complain of being weight drained after their fight. The only one who complained was oscar, and he was the one who insisted on the weights come fight night. For me, oscar's credibility when he mentioned that manny makes fighters lose on the scales 1st is nil.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
By the way, margo is slow. But didn't you pick him to win against manny? So basically if manny never fought tony, you'd be complaining about how he doesn't go up against big slow fighters. That about right? Talk about contradictions.
look arcanum, i did say margarito did have a heck of a chance to beat pacquiao but where did i ever make a prediction? you can't find an instance where i did. but listen, nobody is claiming pacquiao isn't a great fighter because i'd be lying if i said he wasn't. he is a great fighter and this may be a surprise to you, i actually admire and like the guy. what i don't like is his army of pactards claiming he's something he's not. just because he's "won" 8 division titles many of his fans think he's the greatest of all time! that is preposterous to say the least. look at opposition he's faced with today. do you actually think cotto, margarito, clottey, david diaz, and ricky hatton are HOFers? yes, he did beat cotto and that was pretty impressive. i didn't think he could. he did destroy margarito and was surprised at the way he did it. clottey? he's an absolute joke of a fighter. ricky hatton? one of the biggest hype jobs in boxing history. doesn't mean he wasn't any good at one time but he'll never sniff the HOF.
in beating an old, weight drained oscar, pacquiao didn't prove anything. you can't prove anything when the other fighter is not at their best and obviously, oscar wasn't! a prime oscar schools pacquiao every time but that's another story. let's talk about marco antonio barrera! imo, pacquiao would beat him up ten out of ten times. barrera, although a great boxer/puncher, didn't have a clue how to stop pacquiao's onslaught. what about morales! a 70% beat pacquiao convincingly even after he was coming off a loss to barrera, in an exhausting trilogy. what does pacquiao do? he rematches morales after morales lost badly to raheem. and why did pacquiao ever fight morales a third time if he knew he could already beat him?
now, let's talk about marquez! here's a featherweight and super featherweight who gave pacquiao all he could handle. not only did the U.S. boxing press think marquez won BOTH fights, so did the international press. the filipino press thought he lost their rematch. when the filipino press thinks pacquiao (their God) lost a fight, well........:rolleyes: here's the thing, nobody is disputing he's a great fighter but most of you pactards talk as if he's the only fighter that counts. he's not the first or the last great fighter boxing will produce. i truly believe, as do many boxing fans, that pacquiao has been carefully matched with the types of fighters he can beat. he's ducked many challengers from joan guzman, when guzman was a super bantamweight to just recently, marquez. i know you pactards don't like to read these kinds of things but someone has to shake you up a bit to remind you that he is great but not the GOAT!
one more thing arcanum, you'd better enjoy pacroido now because when he's done with boxing, who are you going to root for. you and probably most of the pactards, will probably go into the same oblivion you were in before pacquiao came unto the scene.
Nobody here is saying he's the GOAT. Maybe you read that in some other boxing forums or in Youtube perhaps? I know this is gonna be hard for you to believe, but I don't think titles won at catchweight bouts are legit. At this point, I could care less how many belts manny has won or will win. I just enjoy him as a fighter and a gentleman, and only will reserve my judgment on whether or not in my eyes he's the GOAT or not after his career ends. And after I read up/study more about the other greats. Believe me I have a long way to go, although the journey has been truly enjoyable.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
That being said, the whole purpose of this thread is to discuss if manny does indeed weight drain his opponents prior to their bouts. You probably should post your own generic "I hate manny/pactardos" thread since the majority of your posts here concern other things unrelated to the weight draining issue. :)
I'd probably root for a fighter who has the same tenacity as manny inside the ring. Now you may find this impossibly hard to digest, but that guy doesn't have to be a Filipino. Doesn't matter who he is. I could care less if he's manny the mexican taco vendor in your neighborhood and or crackhouse.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Anyway. Thread's been a nice read and I have to admit I had fun debating with Hornfinger. At least the dude doesn't deflect the topic to manny's "other flaws" according to your thinking. Then you came. You obviously had no idea what the thread was all about but after seeing the name pacquiao on the title, you went into batshit crazy mode (much like Hulk does, except he's cool and sadly you're not) and then decided to unleash your awesomely accurate accusations and blind (or "myopic" - quoting Bilbo) fury to just about anyone on board except for hornfinger. Truly the work of a genius.
So you really admire "pacroido"? Ha.. could've fooled me. I'm gonna refer you to our conversation on page 9 and 10 for my complete rebuttal. You're actually no better than the trolls in youtube/other boxing forums. Probably explains why you've been banned here before. It's easy to imagine you've been chased off/banned/flamed to death repeatedly in other forums too. You're a pactardo, except in reverse.
If you gave Margarito a chance, then you think that the fight is fair. Why are you then making a big deal about the catchweight when Margarito isn't complaining?Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
And who among his fans has been claiming that he is the GOAT? They do mention him as being an ATG which you would probably agree that he is. It is just a question of where he is among the ATGs.Quote:
what i don't like is his army of pactards claiming he's something he's not. just because he's "won" 8 division titles many of his fans think he's the greatest of all time!
But instead of giving Manny credit for those you belittled those wins by putting the blame on the catchweights.Quote:
he did beat cotto and that was pretty impressive. i didn't think he could. he did destroy margarito and was surprised at the way he did it.
So even after beating Oscar, your contention is that Manny still hasn't proven himself above 135 lbs. Then this will make Manny convincingly beating up those heavier opponents more impressive.Quote:
in beating an old, weight drained oscar, pacquiao didn't prove anything. you can't prove anything when the other fighter is not at their best and obviously, oscar wasn't!
Is Pacquiao in his prime when he was beaten by Morales? If not, then Morales did not beat a 100% Pacquiao. So, how many % Pacquiao did he beat? For the record, I just see Morales as the better boxer in their first fight and there should not be any excuses given to Manny's loss.Quote:
what about morales! a 70% beat pacquiao convincingly even after he was coming off a loss to barrera
Manny is expected to fight Morales at some point in time to avenge his loss. If it were later, then you will still criticize him for fighting an older Morales. If Manny didn't fight Morales, then you will be gloating that Manny never beat Erik.Quote:
in an exhausting trilogy. what does pacquiao do? he rematches morales after morales lost badly to raheem.
That has already been an old argument that most people thought that JMM won those fights. How many people have you heard had the fight in favor of JMM? hundreds? thousands? hundred thousands? You may have heard opinions from not even a hundred and they are not representative of all the people who watched the fight, just like the 3 judges. It was such a close fight that could have gone either way and Manny got lucky to emerge the winner.Quote:
now, let's talk about marquez! here's a featherweight and super featherweight who gave pacquiao all he could handle. not only did the U.S. boxing press think marquez won BOTH fights, so did the international press. the filipino press thought he lost their rematch. when the filipino press thinks pacquiao (their God) lost a fight
Of course, he is not. No Pac fan said that he is.Quote:
he's not the first or the last great fighter boxing will produce
Unfortunately, Manny cannot fight them all. Did JMM fight Joan Guzman? So he must also be ducking him.Quote:
he's ducked many challengers from joan guzman, when guzman was a super bantamweight
You are free to write any criticisms of Pacquaio since this is a forum but it seems like you are the one who doesn't want to read about praises given to Pacquiao and a lot of them are not even coming from the pac fans.Quote:
i know you pactards don't like to read these kinds of things but someone has to shake you up a bit to remind you that he is great but not the GOAT!
I'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlightedQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboI ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerRight and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerThe sport is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.
So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.
Simple.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.
But the answer is no.
Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?
Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........
Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.
Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.
Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.
The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.
What part of this do you disagree with?
Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................
And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.
So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.
Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
Again, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerI'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlightedQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboI ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerRight and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerThe sport is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.
So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.
Simple.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.
But the answer is no.
Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?
Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........
Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.
Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.
Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.
The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.
What part of this do you disagree with?
Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................
And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.
So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.
Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.
Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.
If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?
All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.
No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.
You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.
BIGGEST LOAD OF TOSH I'VE HEARD!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboAgain, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerI'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlightedQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboI ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerRight and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerThe sport is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.
So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.
Simple.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.
But the answer is no.
Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?
Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........
Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.
Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.
Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.
The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.
What part of this do you disagree with?
Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................
And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.
So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.
Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.
Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.
If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?
All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.
No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.
You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.
No he beat 150 pound man for the 154 title. No fighter in ANY weight division enters the ring at their weigh in weight. That argument is a complete nonsencical joke. I can't believe you've even tried to go that route. Absolute CRAP!
You can't be a fan of boxing because you are happy for a fighter to try and rewrite the rule book.
HOW CAN A 154 TITLE BE WON AT 150 POUNDS!? It's absurd. and the fact that that gets a pat on the back from you shows you have nothing but contempt for the integrity of the sport.
The fact you are happy and in favour of these handicap matches shows you don't give a shit about fairness in sport.
If I watch a fight I want to see both guys at 100%. Not one get at 100% and another guy at 80% or less.
Dildo as far as I'm concerned you are a complete joke. You have no passion for the sport. Hang your head in shame for that last post.
And again back to THE ISSUE OF THE THREAD!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
Bilbo, there is no reason why you cannot enjoy watching Manny fight but at the same time be critical of the continual use of catchweights. Just as you can appreciate that Israel is a democracy you can be extremely critical of government led state sponsored terrorism. They aren't exclusive ways of thinking.
I agree with Hornfinger in that there was no good reason not to fight Margarito at 154 and Cotto at 147. I will give Manny a pass with ODLH though as he was a big underdog and was jumping up 2 weight divisions for the first time. It was Oscar that wanted to play the weight game that night and he paid. And that's fair enough.
If Pac wants to fight the big guys it would be good for the sport to see him fight within the existing weight bands. If it is too much for him them he should really stay at JWW.
100% agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.
I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.
Yes, it does work both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCornerIf it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.
I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.
As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.
And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.
You will just have to deal with that.
That's a stretch. Margarito is a middleweight no argument here but he opted to fight in the welter division for much his career so he'd have the size and power advantage. Fighting Garcia was a stay busy fight while he was on exile. Margarito has had no problems making 147lbs, so why would making 150lbs be out of his comfort zone? He thought he'd have the same advantage and more against Pacquiao, but ended up with the beating he deserved.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesYes, it does work both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCornerIf it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.
I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.
As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.
And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.
You will just have to deal with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerBIGGEST LOAD OF TOSH I'VE HEARD!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboAgain, Manny didn't beat a 150lb man for the 154 lb title, he beat a 165lb man. If Margarito entered the ring at 154lb he likely would have lost even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerI'll stick to the key facts which I've already highlightedQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboI ahve actually covered this step by step in earlier posts. It's not my fault you havn't bothered to read them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerRight and so BACK TO THE ORIGONAL QUESTION OF THE TREAD which you are avoiding like the plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI agree, and catchweights are part of the sport. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by HornfingerThe sport is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
The 24 hour weigh in has a more recent history than catchweight fights my uninformed friend. Even Henry Armstrong fought at catchweight back in his day. They did not have 24 hour weigh in's however.
That is a feature of modern television, it's not part of boxing tradition. Catchweights have been around for a 100 years. The 24 hour weigh in only since the 80's.
As for the weight class accomodating him. Manny and Margarito's fight was sanctioned by the relevant governing bodies and the WBC belt organisation. What rules were broken exactly, apart from the ones in your head?
Before signing a fight. Fighters know what the weight divisions are and know the weigh in will take place 24 hours in advance. Right.
So if you can't adhere to those paramaters don't fight in a weightclass that's out of your depth.
Simple.
Did pacquiao beat his opponants on the sales?
The answer is... of course otherise he would have fought these guys at their most comfortable weight class.
Pac brings them down to a catch weight for a reason. To weaken them. THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLAINATION.
If he believed he could beat a 154 fighter he'd fight them at 154.
If he thought he could have beat cotto at 147 the fight would have been at 147.
If he thought he could beat ODH at 154 he would have fought at 154.
He didn't think he could win any of those fights at those weights. If he did he would have done them with out the catch weight. It's a no fucking brainer no matter how you try and rationalize it.
And finally mr dildo I take it you want to abolish all weight divisions and do avery fight at whatever the fighters argee.
But the answer is no.
Oscar held all the negotiating power against Manny. It wasn't a case of Manny dragging Oscar down to 147, it was Oscar dragging a little guy up three weight classes. All of the prefight criticism was levelled at Oscar. Do you disagree with this?
Margarito was a welterweight. Had they fought at welterweight would you have disapproved? He actually GAINED weight compared to the entire rest of his career. Mosley must have beat a really weight drained Margarito right, seeing as he weighed in 4lbs lighter than he did against Manny...........
Cotto lost 1lb. A single 1lb. I will say it again, 1 (one) lb.
Does that cause a man to physically drain. I really think not. I am sure there is a point where a pound can make a huge difference but that was not it for Cotto. He chose to weigh in against Clottey at 146. He voluntarily decided that 146 lbs was his optimum weight.
Nobody weight ranges from optimum to weight drained in the course of one single pound.
The difference from weighing 144 to 143 might be significant for Cotto, but not from 146 to 145.
What part of this do you disagree with?
Please state which fighters you think lost the fight at the scales and the evidence you use to demonstrate this.......................
And I completely disagree with you regarding weakening opponents. Manny's maximum weight is 148 lbs. We both acknowledge that he never weighs more than this.
So if a fighter wants to fight him, he wants them to fight around that weight limit. Margarito at a catchweight meant a weight differential of 148 vs 165, 17lbs. At no catchweight it might have been 148 vs 170. The point is Manny is not getting bigger, only his opponent.
Why would I want to abolish weight classes? You are the one who seems to insist that the bigger guy must be allowed to weigh as much as he likes. I'm in favour of setting an agree fight limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
24 hour weigh ins are not boxing tradition, they are modern media demanded invention. They unfairly favour the bigger fighter.
Also Manny has only insisted on catchweight fights after rising through 10 (TEN!!!!) weight classes.
If Sergio Martinez fought Jean Pascal at 173lbs you would be outraged?
If Nonito Donaire fought Juan Guzman at 138lb you would be outraged?
If Jean Pascal fought David Haye at 215lbs you would be outraged?
All of these fights sound like massive massive massive risks for the smaller man.
No other fighter in the history of boxing has done what Manny has done, even allowing for two catchweights. He has done more to raise interest for the sport worldwide than any other currently active fighter.
You are simply not a fan of boxing if you are not a fan of Manny Pacquaio.
No he beat 150 pound man for the 154 title. No fighter in ANY weight division enters the ring at their weigh in weight. That argument is a complete nonsencical joke. I can't believe you've even tried to go that route. Absolute CRAP!
You can't be a fan of boxing because you are happy for a fighter to try and rewrite the rule book.
HOW CAN A 154 TITLE BE WON AT 150 POUNDS!? It's absurd. and the fact that that gets a pat on the back from you shows you have nothing but contempt for the integrity of the sport.
The fact you are happy and in favour of these handicap matches shows you don't give a shit about fairness in sport.
If I watch a fight I want to see both guys at 100%. Not one get at 100% and another guy at 80% or less.
Dildo as far as I'm concerned you are a complete joke. You have no passion for the sport. Hang your head in shame for that last post.
And again back to THE ISSUE OF THE THREAD!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornfinger
Manny has had 57 fights. Two have been at a catchweight.
Manny has won world titles from flyweight junior middleweight, a span of 10 weight divisions. In all that time he has had only one catchweight fight at welter, and one at junior middleweight.
Manny is not a junior middleweight, welterweight or probably even a light welter. At best he's now a natural lightweight, and yet to get better competition he has moved up well, well, well beyond the comfort zone of ANY other fighter in history. No other man who has ever laced up a pair of gloves has risen up through as many weight classes as him.
In his own natural weight classes, from flyweight to super featherweight, he fought everybody, no catchweight, no 'unfair' advantages or anything.
How far does a man have to go before he is cut some slack?
You never answered my questions (as you cannot they simply expose you for what you are) but if ANY other fighter attempted to do what Manny has been doing, the matchups they would have to fight sound ridiculous (or rediculous as you would say).
Martinez vs Pascal at 173 lbs, Pascal vs Haye at 215lbs, Darchinyan vs J M Marquez at 135lbs. According to your criteria, all of these fights would be unfairly skewed in favour of the smaller man, and that just sums up how utterly utterly cretinous you are.
It would be huge if any of the smaller fighters took these fights.
Weight loss doesn't automatically kill a fighter. Glen Johnson moved down, not just a couple pounds but a whole division, well past 40 years old and knocked out Allan Green. Shane Mosley moved down a whole weight class and became a world champ again all over, Bernard Hopkins, now fighting at light heavyweight, got down to 156lbs to knock out Oscar De La Hoya, who clearly wasn't trying to make B Hop lose on the scales :rolleyes:
Have I mentioned you are a cretin?
Where are your threads complaining about Juan Manuel Marquez for dragging Floyd down to 145 lbs?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesYes, it does work both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCornerIf it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.
I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.
As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.
And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.
You will just have to deal with that.
What about Sergio Martinez fighting for and retaining his WBC middleweight crown at a catchweight of 158 against Paul Williams. Of course, you havn't forgotten about this or blacked it out, but I also haven't seen you complaining.
And correct me if I'm wrong but Martinez has only ever fought in 3 weight classes and already he is having catchweight fights. Manny didn't have his first catchweight fight until he had move up 10 (TEN!) weight classes.
Floyd, J M Marquez, Oscar, Hopkins, Williams, Martinez have all organised catchweight fights in the last few years. In all these cases the bigger man won anyway.
Why you so angry with Pac?
I am never less than consistent. I disctinctly recall criticising Williams for fighting Martinez at a catchweight and I was extremely critical of Mayweather for fighting Marquez way outside of his weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhere are your threads complaining about Juan Manuel Marquez for dragging Floyd down to 145 lbs?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesYes, it does work both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCornerIf it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.
I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.
As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.
And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.
You will just have to deal with that.
What about Sergio Martinez fighting for and retaining his WBC middleweight crown at a catchweight of 158 against Paul Williams. Of course, you havn't forgotten about this or blacked it out, but I also haven't seen you complaining.
And correct me if I'm wrong but Martinez has only ever fought in 3 weight classes and already he is having catchweight fights. Manny didn't have his first catchweight fight until he had move up 10 (TEN!) weight classes.
Floyd, J M Marquez, Oscar, Hopkins, Williams, Martinez have all organised catchweight fights in the last few years. In all these cases the bigger man won anyway.
Why you so angry with Pac?
There is no need for it and as long as it happens I shall be against it.
Why were you critical of Floyd? It was Marquez who demanded Floyd cut weight and got him to agree to come in like a corpse at 145lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI am never less than consistent. I disctinctly recall criticising Williams for fighting Martinez at a catchweight and I was extremely critical of Mayweather for fighting Marquez way outside of his weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhere are your threads complaining about Juan Manuel Marquez for dragging Floyd down to 145 lbs?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesYes, it does work both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCornerIf it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.
I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.
As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.
And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.
You will just have to deal with that.
What about Sergio Martinez fighting for and retaining his WBC middleweight crown at a catchweight of 158 against Paul Williams. Of course, you havn't forgotten about this or blacked it out, but I also haven't seen you complaining.
And correct me if I'm wrong but Martinez has only ever fought in 3 weight classes and already he is having catchweight fights. Manny didn't have his first catchweight fight until he had move up 10 (TEN!) weight classes.
Floyd, J M Marquez, Oscar, Hopkins, Williams, Martinez have all organised catchweight fights in the last few years. In all these cases the bigger man won anyway.
Why you so angry with Pac?
There is no need for it and as long as it happens I shall be against it.
Your logic is totally inconsistent. Manny is from the same weight class as Marquez and he's fighting guys at 147 and Margarito even higher than that. And he's kicking their asses. But in his case he's being the bully? I'm lost.
I was critical of Floyd for taking a fight with a LW. It was a mismatch. There should have been no fight, let alone catchweights. Of course Floyd ignored the CW anyway, so perhaps he agrees about CW's. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhy were you critical of Floyd? It was Marquez who demanded Floyd cut weight and got him to agree to come in like a corpse at 145lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI am never less than consistent. I disctinctly recall criticising Williams for fighting Martinez at a catchweight and I was extremely critical of Mayweather for fighting Marquez way outside of his weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhere are your threads complaining about Juan Manuel Marquez for dragging Floyd down to 145 lbs?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesYes, it does work both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCornerIf it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.
I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.
As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.
And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.
You will just have to deal with that.
What about Sergio Martinez fighting for and retaining his WBC middleweight crown at a catchweight of 158 against Paul Williams. Of course, you havn't forgotten about this or blacked it out, but I also haven't seen you complaining.
And correct me if I'm wrong but Martinez has only ever fought in 3 weight classes and already he is having catchweight fights. Manny didn't have his first catchweight fight until he had move up 10 (TEN!) weight classes.
Floyd, J M Marquez, Oscar, Hopkins, Williams, Martinez have all organised catchweight fights in the last few years. In all these cases the bigger man won anyway.
Why you so angry with Pac?
There is no need for it and as long as it happens I shall be against it.
Your logic is totally inconsistent. Manny is from the same weight class as Marquez and he's fighting guys at 147 and Margarito even higher than that. And he's kicking their asses. But in his case he's being the bully? I'm lost.
As for Pac, we have already seen that he is unnatural and somehow able to carry the weight. The request for CW's is just not justified. Just fight them in their own weightclasses and be done with it. Otherwise there will always be detractors.
I happen to think Manny is a great too, so would much rather he just stay within the existing weight parameters and stop playing games at the scales.
It's not that he carries the weight mate, it's that he is so good he is able to beat people despite being smaller!Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI was critical of Floyd for taking a fight with a LW. It was a mismatch. There should have been no fight, let alone catchweights. Of course Floyd ignored the CW anyway, so perhaps he agrees about CW's. :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhy were you critical of Floyd? It was Marquez who demanded Floyd cut weight and got him to agree to come in like a corpse at 145lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by milesI am never less than consistent. I disctinctly recall criticising Williams for fighting Martinez at a catchweight and I was extremely critical of Mayweather for fighting Marquez way outside of his weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhere are your threads complaining about Juan Manuel Marquez for dragging Floyd down to 145 lbs?Quote:
Originally Posted by milesYes, it does work both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by InTheNeutralCornerIf it's too much for Pacquiao's opponents, then they should not have agreed to the fight. I am not saying that it's his opponent's fault nor is it Manny's fault. It goes both ways. They agreed to the fight knowing that they are still capable of beating Manny. If they knew that such catchweight is detrimental and that they are sure they can't win the fight and yet agreed to it, then they are the ones who are crazy and would be at fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
If the catchweight is allowed by the boxing association, then why would someone fault the boxer for using it. Blame it on those boxing organizations. Have them abolish the catchweight.
I wished Pacquiao fought Cotto without a catchweight. Margarito is a different story. Several boxers fought at a catchweight: Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar dela Hoya, Roy Jones, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bernard Hopkins, etc. The catchweights didn't tarnish these boxers reputation. I don't even think the general public remembers that they fought at a catchweight. Manny's catchweight fights would not even be remembered as such several years after he retires.
As a man of principles I wouldn't sell out, but it seems in professional boxing it is all too common. If you were offered a 12 round fight to secure your retirement, then you most likely would. And in the process would you then quibble over a pound or two that the richest fighter in the world argued about? No you would take the money and run and so that is what these opponents have done. Sure, they have fought Pac, but they have fought him at weights neither of them were used to. Not even Margarito.
And yes we could blame the administrations. But this is boxing. Have you suddenly entered the Nobel peace prize commitee? And even they can get it very wrong. You say that people will not remember. Okay, Bilbo has blacked out the past. But people like me don't and there are a lot of us. Sure Pac is exciting, but there are question marks and people who aren't into propaganda will question him.
You will just have to deal with that.
What about Sergio Martinez fighting for and retaining his WBC middleweight crown at a catchweight of 158 against Paul Williams. Of course, you havn't forgotten about this or blacked it out, but I also haven't seen you complaining.
And correct me if I'm wrong but Martinez has only ever fought in 3 weight classes and already he is having catchweight fights. Manny didn't have his first catchweight fight until he had move up 10 (TEN!) weight classes.
Floyd, J M Marquez, Oscar, Hopkins, Williams, Martinez have all organised catchweight fights in the last few years. In all these cases the bigger man won anyway.
Why you so angry with Pac?
There is no need for it and as long as it happens I shall be against it.
Your logic is totally inconsistent. Manny is from the same weight class as Marquez and he's fighting guys at 147 and Margarito even higher than that. And he's kicking their asses. But in his case he's being the bully? I'm lost.
As for Pac, we have already seen that he is unnatural and somehow able to carry the weight. The request for CW's is just not justified. Just fight them in their own weightclasses and be done with it. Otherwise there will always be detractors.
I happen to think Manny is a great too, so would much rather he just stay within the existing weight parameters and stop playing games at the scales.
He didn't carry any extra weight against Margarito. He climbed over the ropes weighing 148lbs, which incidently is the same as he weighed when climbed over the ropes to face Juan Manuel Marquez.
He hasn't bulked up and added loads of weight. He's basically stayed the same size and just fought bigger and bigger men. He's won because of skill and speed, nothing to do with carrying extra weight better because he is hardly carry any extra weight.
He dominates them becuase he is brilliant.