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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
beenKOed
Legalization is the wrong way to go because then it's about who has the most money, knows the best chemist that makes the most effective drugs, that kind of thing.
There are a lot of people who just don't what drugs in their bodies period.
That's true, but isn't it already biased towards the rich without drugs being legal?
Wealthy boxers can afford to hire the best personal trainers and nutritionists, buy the best supplements, the best food (eating a lot of healthy food gets very expensive), bringing in the best sparring partners, hiring/getting more attention from the best boxing trainers, training at the best gyms, ect.
There are a lot of fighters (boxing and mma) who are coming up who have to work a full time job to support their boxing, and can only train when they get a chance.
Having more money = more resources and will always be a big advantage, regardless of whether or not drugs are legal.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
OK so if the steroid debate is going to be opened up we might as well ask "Did Lennox Lewis use PEDs?" We do know for certain Tommy Morrison did and odds are Holyfield did, but what of other fighters in that era?
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
If all else fails bring up peds.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
If all else fails bring up peds.
If someone is going to open that can of worms for Tyson then they should ask the same questions of Tyson's peers.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
If all else fails bring up peds.
If someone is going to open that can of worms for Tyson then they should ask the same questions of Tyson's peers.
Exactly. I always assume everyone is using. That way it stays out of the discussion instead of being used selectively.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Exactly. I always assume everyone is using. That way it stays out of the discussion instead of being used selectively.
Realistic way to look at it!
And PED's don't make a champion fighter. Holyfield got where he was to on the basis of his skill and heart. Steroids help for sure, but they can't tell you which punch to throw, which way to move, what strategy to use and make you able to take a punch.
Holyfield fuckin ruled!
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
James Toney used roids as a heavyweight and he looked like crap
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
ok then, you lot have sussed it, its not worth taking peds and on the evidence of james toney they dont enhance your performance they make it worse
yeah hollyfield moved up the weights and stayed champ on skill alone, he took roids but they never helped
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
yeah hollyfield moved up the weights and stayed champ on skill alone, he took roids but they never helped
Hahah I'm not saying PEDs don't help, if they didn't help no one would take them!
But it takes a lot more than that to make a champ and they don't help as much as people think... I've seen no evidence that they really improve a punch all that well either!
Watch Stefan Bonnar vs Anderson Silva from the UFC... Bonnar was roided to the gills and Silva was (as far as we know) clean. Silva ragdolled Bonnar and at one point let him have free punches on him that he laughed off. So this notion that steroids turn an average fighter into a killer is crazy IMHO!
And there's no real way to know that the other big names of the time weren't taking it, so it's kinda unfair and unrealistic to single Holyfield out as the only roider.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
yeah hollyfield moved up the weights and stayed champ on skill alone, he took roids but they never helped
Hahah I'm not saying PEDs don't help, if they didn't help no one would take them!
But it takes a lot more than that to make a champ and they don't help as much as people think... I've seen no evidence that they really improve a punch all that well either!
Watch Stefan Bonnar vs Anderson Silva from the UFC... Bonnar was roided to the gills and Silva was (as far as we know) clean. Silva ragdolled Bonnar and at one point let him have free punches on him that he laughed off. So this notion that steroids turn an average fighter into a killer is crazy IMHO!
And there's no real way to know that the other big names of the time weren't taking it, so it's kinda unfair and unrealistic to single Holyfield out as the only roider.
you cant compare one person against another only one person against themself
if my gran took roids she would be a better boxer than she is
in weight lifting roids make a massive difference to your performance, a man who can bench 80 kilos will bench 100, and thats dodgy sh1t from the man in the alley
imagine how these multimillion pound prefessional athletes would benefit from the roids they get :)
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
if my gran took roids she would be a better boxer than she is
I don't know if it would make her a better boxer... she'd probably sprout some nice thick chest hair though!
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
if my gran took roids she would be a better boxer than she is
I don't know if it would make her a better boxer... she'd probably sprout some nice thick chest hair though!
actually better boxer is probably a bad way of saying it
my roided gran would batter my non roided gran
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
my roided gran would batter my non roided gran
Not really. Steroids help you to better recover from workouts and use the food you eat to better service your body. If your granny shot up steroids without any training regimine or clean eating, she'd put on fat, her blood pressure and cholesterol would go through the roof and she'd be bloated from water retention.
They aren't the magic bullet that people think they are.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
my roided gran would batter my non roided gran
Not really. Steroids help you to better recover from workouts and use the food you eat to better service your body. If your granny shot up steroids without any training regimine or clean eating, she'd put on fat, her blood pressure and cholesterol would go through the roof and she'd be bloated from water retention.
They aren't the magic bullet that people think they are.
naa man
if my gran did steroids and didnt train after several weeks of her cycle she would be able to bench press more than she would have done not on the cycle, perhaps only a few lbs if she didnt train correctly
steroids improve your performance
not training on steriods doesnt make you fat unless you eat more than normal, you might appear bigger because of water retention
colesterol, blood pressure, heart rate may all increase depending on her reaction
long term steroids arent a magic bullet unless you take them and approach it right, you dont automatically get bigger muscles unless you eat right and train right, whilst taking steroids tho you will be able to lift more
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Exactly. I always assume everyone is using. That way it stays out of the discussion instead of being used selectively.
Realistic way to look at it!
And PED's don't make a champion fighter. Holyfield got where he was to on the basis of his skill and heart. Steroids help for sure, but they can't tell you which punch to throw, which way to move, what strategy to use and make you able to take a punch.
Holyfield fuckin ruled!
But PED's give a champion fighter an edge over a champion fighter who doesnt use them.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
yeah hollyfield moved up the weights and stayed champ on skill alone, he took roids but they never helped
Hahah I'm not saying PEDs don't help, if they didn't help no one would take them!
But it takes a lot more than that to make a champ and they don't help as much as people think... I've seen no evidence that they really improve a punch all that well either!
Watch Stefan Bonnar vs Anderson Silva from the UFC... Bonnar was roided to the gills and Silva was (as far as we know) clean. Silva ragdolled Bonnar and at one point let him have free punches on him that he laughed off. So this notion that steroids turn an average fighter into a killer is crazy IMHO!
And there's no real way to know that the other big names of the time weren't taking it, so it's kinda unfair and unrealistic to single Holyfield out as the only roider.
you cant compare one person against another only one person against themself
if my gran took roids she would be a better boxer than she is
in weight lifting roids make a massive difference to your performance, a man who can bench 80 kilos will bench 100, and thats dodgy sh1t from the man in the alley
imagine how these multimillion pound prefessional athletes would benefit from the roids they get :)
Exactly
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
my roided gran would batter my non roided gran
Not really. Steroids help you to better recover from workouts and use the food you eat to better service your body. If your granny shot up steroids without any training regimine or clean eating, she'd put on fat, her blood pressure and cholesterol would go through the roof and she'd be bloated from water retention.
They aren't the magic bullet that people think they are.
Here energy levels, endurance and intensity would increase, allowing her to immediately batter her old self with one dose.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Here energy levels, endurance and intensity would increase.
How do you figure that would happen without training, mate?
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
if my gran did steroids and didnt train after several weeks of her cycle she would be able to bench press more than she would have done not on the cycle,
How did you reach that conclusion?
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
When was Evander Holyfield’s prime?
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
James Toney used roids as a heavyweight and he looked like crap
Botha and Tarver too. Then you have a Vargas for example who looked like a mini Mr. Universe. I mean shit, Mike Ayala fought while on heroin?! I'm not sure what the understood definition of PED is anymore.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
James Toney used roids as a heavyweight and he looked like crap
Botha and Tarver too. Then you have a Vargas for example who looked like a mini Mr. Universe. I mean shit, Mike Ayala fought while on heroin?! I'm not sure what the understood definition of PED is anymore.
heroin would not be PED would it?
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Here energy levels, endurance and intensity would increase.
How do you figure that would happen without training, mate?
Because thats what it does. Ask a user. They take it right before a work out to get pumped and work out longer.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
James Toney used roids as a heavyweight and he looked like crap
Botha and Tarver too. Then you have a Vargas for example who looked like a mini Mr. Universe. I mean shit, Mike Ayala fought while on heroin?! I'm not sure what the understood definition of PED is anymore.
heroin would not be PED would it?
I don't know, dulls everything I'd imagine. Pain threshold? Depends on the individual, usage etc. Never used that one.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
James Toney used roids as a heavyweight and he looked like crap
Botha and Tarver too. Then you have a Vargas for example who looked like a mini Mr. Universe. I mean shit, Mike Ayala fought while on heroin?! I'm not sure what the understood definition of PED is anymore.
heroin would not be PED would it?
Yes it would, if someone takes enough to not get trashed it will block pain. That of course can be huge in a fight.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
James Toney used roids as a heavyweight and he looked like crap
Botha and Tarver too. Then you have a Vargas for example who looked like a mini Mr. Universe. I mean shit, Mike Ayala fought while on heroin?! I'm not sure what the understood definition of PED is anymore.
heroin would not be PED would it?
Yes it would, if someone takes enough to not get trashed it will block pain. That of course can be huge in a fight.
When your being punched in the face by Little Red Lopez that had to be a plus. Even Eric's Gran couldn't stand up to that ;D
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Because thats what it does. Ask a user. They take it right before a work out to get pumped and work out longer.
The key phrase is "before a work out"... because they don't offer any benefits if you aren't training. That was my only point: it's not like you just inject steroids, do nothing and they do great things for you. They are just a tool to help you get more out of workouts.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Because thats what it does. Ask a user. They take it right before a work out to get pumped and work out longer.
The key phrase is "before a work out"... because they don't offer any benefits if you aren't training. That was my only point: it's not like you just inject steroids, do nothing and they do great things for you. They are just a tool to help you get more out of workouts.
And help you recover after workouts so you can hit the gym harder the next day.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Peds are just a supplement that most pro use if not all and it does not make that big of a difference to me if they used them or not. For all i know most of the heavyweights today use them as for every other weight class. Why not use them give me a reason if most people use them already why keep it banned it goes against progress. As your question Master Holyfeilds prime was over after the second Bowie fight he started having hart problems and also think got hep b as well after that fight some time after. I mean he was already fighting for 10 years and with bigger guys for most and was in his 30's.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Because thats what it does. Ask a user. They take it right before a work out to get pumped and work out longer.
The key phrase is "before a work out"... because they don't offer any benefits if you aren't training. That was my only point: it's not like you just inject steroids, do nothing and they do great things for you. They are just a tool to help you get more out of workouts.
And help you recover after workouts so you can hit the gym harder the next day.
Yeah! More gains when you do stuff... but to get any gains, you have to do something! Haha, it'd be great if you could just give yourself a shot of steroids and the next day look like Arnold circa 1978. I'd do it!
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Yeah! More gains when you do stuff... but to get any gains, you have to do something! Haha, it'd be great if you could just give yourself a shot of steroids and the next day look like Arnold circa 1978. I'd do it!
Agreed
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Yeah! More gains when you do stuff... but to get any gains, you have to do something! Haha, it'd be great if you could just give yourself a shot of steroids and the next day look like Arnold circa 1978. I'd do it!
Agreed
Not if it meant you have a small dick and die young of a heart attack.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Because thats what it does. Ask a user. They take it right before a work out to get pumped and work out longer.
The key phrase is "before a work out"... because they don't offer any benefits if you aren't training. That was my only point: it's not like you just inject steroids, do nothing and they do great things for you. They are just a tool to help you get more out of workouts.
What im saying is they take it right before their workout because it provides an energy rush. You take it and your zooming ready to take on anything.
That in itself would give an extra push in a sport but thats the least of the advantages roids give someone.
So if dude had a clone of his grandma and gave one roids and pitted them against each other, the one who took roids would likely easily win considering she has a testsoterone rush off roids with a much higher level of energy and intensity.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
if my gran did steroids and didnt train after several weeks of her cycle she would be able to bench press more than she would have done not on the cycle,
How did you reach that conclusion?
its just a fact, there are short term immediate benefits to taking steroids
you start a cycle today, you could take dbol and it would kick in after a week or two
do a bench press before you start see how much you can lift
do nothing else, eat macdonalds and pizzas everyday, do nothing but watch TV
after a couple of weeks of the cycle do another bench press see how much your lift has improved, continue taking it, add a bit of test to your cycle, do another bench press, when the test kicks in do another bench press
see how much more you can lift
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
Because thats what it does. Ask a user. They take it right before a work out to get pumped and work out longer.
The key phrase is "before a work out"... because they don't offer any benefits if you aren't training. That was my only point: it's not like you just inject steroids, do nothing and they do great things for you. They are just a tool to help you get more out of workouts.
What im saying is they take it right before their workout because it provides an energy rush. You take it and your zooming ready to take on anything.
That in itself would give an extra push in a sport but thats the least of the advantages roids give someone.
So if dude had a clone of his grandma and gave one roids and pitted them against each other, the one who took roids would likely easily win considering she has a testsoterone rush off roids with a much higher level of energy and intensity.
all due respect fellas people tend to take steroids before a work out because the workout will help pump the stuff around your body, im not sure it will improve your lifts immediately after an injection
there could be drugs you take that give you an immediate gain but i havent heard of any
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
So master would you agree that Holyfeilds prime was pretty much after the second Bowie fight. I say that is the best answer after that he started to have a lot of hart problems and got hep b as well. He was also in his 30's and been fighting for 10 years so i say that was his prime really if you can not find out.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
its just a fact, there are short term immediate benefits to taking steroids
you start a cycle today, you could take dbol and it would kick in after a week or two
do a bench press before you start see how much you can lift
do nothing else, eat macdonalds and pizzas everyday, do nothing but watch TV
after a couple of weeks of the cycle do another bench press see how much your lift has improved, continue taking it, add a bit of test to your cycle, do another bench press, when the test kicks in do another bench press
see how much more you can lift
I've never seen any science or even any first-hand info from roid users that would support that.
Taking steroids and sitting at home doing nothing and eating shitty will make you a fat motherfucker, it's not going to help you.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cambay411
What im saying is they take it right before their workout because it provides an energy rush. You take it and your zooming ready to take on anything.
Energy rush? What substance are we talking about?
Steroids help you recover quicker from a workout and experience bigger gains. I've never heard of a steroid that you inject right before a workout that gives you an energy rush.
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
its just a fact, there are short term immediate benefits to taking steroids
you start a cycle today, you could take dbol and it would kick in after a week or two
do a bench press before you start see how much you can lift
do nothing else, eat macdonalds and pizzas everyday, do nothing but watch TV
after a couple of weeks of the cycle do another bench press see how much your lift has improved, continue taking it, add a bit of test to your cycle, do another bench press, when the test kicks in do another bench press
see how much more you can lift
I've never seen any science or even any first-hand info from roid users that would support that.
Taking steroids and sitting at home doing nothing and eating shitty will make you a fat motherfucker, it's not going to help you.
not taking steroids and sitting at home doing nothing and eating shitty will make you a fat motherfucker, its not going to help you
steroids dont make you fat, eating too much and not excersizing makes you fat
steroids improve your performance and you dont have to do anything other than take steroids to improve your performance
if you take steroids and have the right exercise/diet plan the effects can be long term
and i dont even know why we are talking about this anyway, professional boxers do have the right training plan and diets so they will make the most of the roids
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Re: Lets end the Mike Tyson debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
steroids dont make you fat, eating too much and not excersizing makes you fat
steroids improve your performance and you dont have to do anything other than take steroids to improve your performance
We're talking about this because the statements you are making (like the ones above) are simply not true. Steroids promote the retention of water and fat.
Muscle is formed from the breaking down of the muscle (caused by exertion of the muscle through exercise) and the rebuilding. If you don't do anything, you're not going to have any gains and you'll suffer through the side effects anyway.
