Does anybody think Valuev won?

Normaly when there are controvercial judges score cards there are some who think they got it wrong and some who think they got it right.

Does anybody think they got it right last night?

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Normaly when there are controvercial judges score cards there are some who think they got it wrong and some who think they got it right.

Does anybody think they got it right last night?

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Soon as i find the fight on rapidshare to download i'll let you know mush

You can't even begin to make a case for Valuev, he did nothing at all the whole fight.

Evander bounced around on his toes and Valuev had no answer for it...............he never needed an answer though because he already had the fight in the bag:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Kel

You can't even begin to make a case for Valuev, he did nothing at all the whole fight.

Evander bounced around on his toes and Valuev had no answer for it...............he never needed an answer though because he already had the fight in the bag:rolleyes:

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Yes even though EH did not do much I think it was his footwork that did not let Valuev get his shots off.

there is no way in hell Valuev won. he didnt give off any shots, the only thing he did was get dizzy going round in circles following holyfield.

Wonder what the punch stats were?

I have to admit I thought it was a very close fight, literally due to NOTHING happening. It was maybe the worst fight ive ever seen. I'll also admit I had it 115-114 Valuev.

I was really confused by the American commentary thinking Holyfield was winning every round more or less, so I trawled the forums and found almost everybody had a similar result, which has led to me registering to post.

Lets be honest - both fighters threw f all and landed f all. So imo a lot of the rounds came down to how you interpret movement and aggression and all of that. The poster above, Kel, says 'Evander bounced around on his toes and Valuev had no answer for it'....but could this not be interpreted as Evander just backing off and running away refusing to engage...and therefore being the fighter on the backfoot and defensive? If thats the case no one threw anything really, then that would be giving rounds to Valuev would it not?

Obviously Valuev was extremely static, but he did own the centre of the ring and was providing more forward movement and lamely pawing out with the jab some. Imo its no good backing off and circling being on your toes IF you dont throw something as well, it just looks like youre scared to engage in combat. Its a shame cos I wanted Holyfield to win and it was really there for the taking if he just could have gone in and out a bit more (eg more than once a round).

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Wonder what the punch stats were?

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Did they show any? I don't remember seeing them:-\

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Originally Posted by liz

there is no way in hell Valuev won. he didnt give off any shots, the only thing he did was get dizzy going round in circles following holyfield.

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This comment also echoes my points I was trying to illustrate. If we can agree that neither fighter threw anything of substance in a lot of the rounds, then how is Holyfield winning the rounds by allowing Valuev to follow him around the ring (albeit bloody slowly).

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Originally Posted by J_C

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Originally Posted by liz

there is no way in hell Valuev won. he didnt give off any shots, the only thing he did was get dizzy going round in circles following holyfield.

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This comment also echoes my points I was trying to illustrate. If we can agree that neither fighter threw anything of substance in a lot of the rounds, then how is Holyfield winning the rounds by allowing Valuev to follow him around the ring (albeit bloody slowly).

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Cuz Holyfield was countering him

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Originally Posted by J_C

I have to admit I thought it was a very close fight, literally due to NOTHING happening. It was maybe the worst fight ive ever seen. I'll also admit I had it 115-114 Valuev.

I was really confused by the American commentary thinking Holyfield was winning every round more or less, so I trawled the forums and found almost everybody had a similar result, which has led to me registering to post.

Lets be honest - both fighters threw f all and landed f all. So imo a lot of the rounds came down to how you interpret movement and aggression and all of that. The poster above, Kel, says 'Evander bounced around on his toes and Valuev had no answer for it'....but could this not be interpreted as Evander just backing off and running away refusing to engage...and therefore being the fighter on the backfoot and defensive? If thats the case no one threw anything really, then that would be giving rounds to Valuev would it not?

Obviously Valuev was extremely static, but he did own the centre of the ring and was providing more forward movement and lamely pawing out with the jab some. Imo its no good backing off and circling being on your toes IF you dont throw something as well, it just looks like youre scared to engage in combat. Its a shame cos I wanted Holyfield to win and it was really there for the taking if he just could have gone in and out a bit more (eg more than once a round).

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To be honest I have been thinking if I let the commontators influnce my opinion.
I did not have a very good quality picture to watch it and might have missed bits.
I am hoping to watch it again.

I dont agree with what you posted but fair play to you for having the balls to go against the flow.;D

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Originally Posted by J_C

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Originally Posted by liz

there is no way in hell Valuev won. he didnt give off any shots, the only thing he did was get dizzy going round in circles following holyfield.

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This comment also echoes my points I was trying to illustrate. If we can agree that neither fighter threw anything of substance in a lot of the rounds, then how is Holyfield winning the rounds by allowing Valuev to follow him around the ring (albeit bloody slowly).

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Ok, Holyfield landed more punches than Valuev no doubt at all in my mind about that.

When rounds are slow with nothing much going on you can score that round on ring generalship. He took away Valuev's attack by using lateral movement, something he(Valuev) could not adapt to.

How did you manage to score the fight in Valuev's favour anyway?

I wanted to see Holyfield counterpunch believe me but I didnt hardly see that really I have to say. Not anything to do with Holy not countering when Valuev landed of course but EVRYTHING to do with the whole fight being fought out of range! There was nothing to counter cos nothing was happening! It was an absolutely bizzare fight, like Holyfield fought if he stayed out of range and circled enough eventually Valuev would get dizzy and hit the deck ;D

[/quote]Ok, Holyfield landed more punches than Valuev no doubt at all in my mind about that.

When rounds are slow with nothing much going on you can score that round on ring generalship. He took away Valuev's attack by using lateral movement, something he(Valuev) could not adapt to.[/quote]

I thought Valuev threw more, Holyfield landed more. Id be very interested in seeing the punch stats (where can we get hold of them?).

I totally see your point but the counter argument is that there is a fine line between executing this gameplan and just running away staying out of range. Is taking away Valuevs attack by ignoring your own enough to win a round. I totally see Holy's gameplan and it was executed well enough in some rounds, its just a shame he couldnt have gone in and out more as then there would have been a clear winner (in my eyes).

There were a bunch of rounds where Holyfield threw nothing and just circled staying out of harms way. Valuev followed him around slowly and pawed out the jab, rarely landing but pawing out all the same. Imo those are Valuev rounds.

Perhaps the judges misunderstood the scoring, they may have been using the Yehti rules (a common mistake in Russia) in which case Ring Generalship is swapped out for who has the most pronounced forehead, Clean Punches are changed out for hairiness, and good defense is put aside for height.......in which case Nicolay Valuev CLEARLY dominated Holyfield......by the Yehti rules of course, in boxing he got his big ass whupt

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Wonder what the punch stats were?

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I'm guessing something like this

Valuev 3/25

Holyfield 9/40

that's my best guess, honestly it wouldn't be that hard to count by hand on this one.

I don't know how anyone could give Valuev more than 3 rounds. It's not as if he was even throwing anything.

I don't know if this can happen but i had the fight a draw 0 - 0 is was that piss poor, best case 108 - 108 , no-one did enough to a single round

The HW scene is a disgrace having them 2 fight for a World Title

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Originally Posted by J_C

I have to admit I thought it was a very close fight, literally due to NOTHING happening. It was maybe the worst fight ive ever seen. I'll also admit I had it 115-114 Valuev.

I was really confused by the American commentary thinking Holyfield was winning every round more or less, so I trawled the forums and found almost everybody had a similar result, which has led to me registering to post.

Lets be honest - both fighters threw f all and landed f all. So imo a lot of the rounds came down to how you interpret movement and aggression and all of that. The poster above, Kel, says 'Evander bounced around on his toes and Valuev had no answer for it'....but could this not be interpreted as Evander just backing off and running away refusing to engage...and therefore being the fighter on the backfoot and defensive? If thats the case no one threw anything really, then that would be giving rounds to Valuev would it not?

Obviously Valuev was extremely static, but he did own the centre of the ring and was providing more forward movement and lamely pawing out with the jab some. Imo its no good backing off and circling being on your toes IF you dont throw something as well, it just looks like youre scared to engage in combat. Its a shame cos I wanted Holyfield to win and it was really there for the taking if he just could have gone in and out a bit more (eg more than once a round).

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It is a judges job to know something about the fighters participating in a title fight....ANY JUDGE who does not know about Evander Holyfield should not be judging a fight in boxing let alone a HW title bout....

The Evander of old was a fighter who liked to bounce before he struck look at any of his prime fights and you would know that...There is a difference between bouncing and being inactive and running....

Not as if Valuev was following him in a stalking manner EG_ Miguel Cotto wallking an opponent down to unleash is stalking to attack....

Following a man around with no idea what to do or how to handle the movement is not....

Ruslan Chagaev beat Valuev by using constant movement and basically jabbing him...That fight Valuev had no idea on what to do either.....

Ruslan was just more active then Evander is all...

Valuev had some moments with his jab in the later rds as evander was tired but certainly not enough to warrent a victory,,,absolutly not enough for the scors read...

I mean c'mon man this was booed in Switzerland

I just wish that Wladimir would get a shot at Valuev...Valuev SAYS he wants to fight the best but he never TRIES to fight the best.

Evander had to make the fight as best he could without taking any risks against the much bigger guy. It was as bad a fight as it was because Holyfield was waiting for Valuev to make a move so he could counter and find openings. Valuev didnt do anything so this made Evanders job a lot harder. Valuev made no effort to defend his titles and Evander, who most people thought was going to get annihilated, stuck to a smart gameplan that enabled him to overcome the size difference and take rounds from the giant by using lateral movement and throwing conservative combonations when he did get inside, and ultimately winning a decision, which he should have. 46 y/o Holyfield was on his toes for 12 rounds, in complete control of the pace of the fight and his opponent from the beginning, making Valuev look like an amateur and completely uncomfortable and clueless, few thought he could do any of those things. Those people saying that Valuev won must be immpressed with Valuevs size and figure that being in the middle on the ring, doing nothing, gives Valuev the edge because of his "ring generalship" and imposing shadow. He must be even more of a defensive genius than Willie Pep because Pep only won one round without throwing a punch. Valuev could actually will himself a victory. Truly astonishing feat by the Russian.

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Originally Posted by J_C

I wanted to see Holyfield counterpunch believe me but I didnt hardly see that really I have to say. Not anything to do with Holy not countering when Valuev landed of course but EVRYTHING to do with the whole fight being fought out of range! There was nothing to counter cos nothing was happening! It was an absolutely bizzare fight, like Holyfield fought if he stayed out of range and circled enough eventually Valuev would get dizzy and hit the deck ;D

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Orrr....He fought like a man who was outweighed by 100 + lbs,an 11 year age diference,and has been on the down slide for more than a few years,yet he still maintained enough activity to make/keep Valuev overthinking things and apparently deficiant in enough confidence to fight as a Heavyweight Champion.The fight was a bore.....but when does the Fav. and Champion shoulder some responsibility for stinking out the place?If he can not catch up to the old man who is throwing minimal counters and force a taxing pace on him with the age,weight,height advantages he had....Thats on him.Vauev fought like a 2nd rate challenger.

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Normaly when there are controvercial judges score cards there are some who think they got it wrong and some who think they got it right.

Does anybody think they got it right last night?

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Dont know,i was total drunk then i saw the fight:lol::drinker:

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

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Originally Posted by J_C

I wanted to see Holyfield counterpunch believe me but I didnt hardly see that really I have to say. Not anything to do with Holy not countering when Valuev landed of course but EVRYTHING to do with the whole fight being fought out of range! There was nothing to counter cos nothing was happening! It was an absolutely bizzare fight, like Holyfield fought if he stayed out of range and circled enough eventually Valuev would get dizzy and hit the deck ;D

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Orrr....He fought like a man who was outweighed by 100 + lbs,an 11 year age diference,and has been on the down slide for more than a few years,yet he still maintained enough activity to make/keep Valuev overthinking things and apparently deficiant in enough confidence to fight as a Heavyweight Champion.The fight was a bore.....but when does the Fav. and Champion shoulder some responsibility for stinking out the place?If he can not catch up to the old man who is throwing minimal counters and force a taxing pace on him with the age,weight,height advantages he had....Thats on him.Vauev fought like a 2nd rate challenger.

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EXACTLY..

that's something like what i was going to say..

directed towards J_C.. Holyfield was not running, he was being smart.. He knows he's not going to win a brawl with someone SO MUCH bigger than him, and was trying to get in and out as much as possible.. Running would have been if Valuev actually attempted to put Evander on the ropes, or walk him into a corner, and Evander was trying to escape instead of fight back.. This was not the case..

You do not get points or an advantage for coming into the ring the bigger guy, and the fight should not be scored that way..

Hey guys,

Me and my mate who is also into boxing analysed this fight this afternoon for about an hour and a half. Pretty sick and sadistic I know as it was such a bad fight but we disagreed on the outcome (he had Holy winning by a few points) and we wanted to settle our dispute. We counted everything thrown and everything landed (which isnt quite as time consuming as it may sound due to the lack of activity in the fight). Obviously theres some margin for error but I think we did a good job.

Here are the punch stats...(Round - Valuev - Holyfield)

1 - 37/2 - 19/6
2 - 21/2 - 13/6
3 - 23/2 - 11/7
4 - 32/6 - 18/8
5 - 24/2 - 19/5
6 - 51/7 - 13/6
7 - 37/9 - 13/7
8 - 40/9 - 27/6
9 - 29/5 - 20/4
10 - 35/3 - 17/5
11 - 30/4 - 18/7
12 - 43/1 - 15/3

Valuev 52/402 13%
Holyfield 70/203 34%

As I suspected and said earlier in the thread Valuev threw more but Holyfield landed more. Valuev threw twice as many infact although it really has to be said the majority of those were very weak jabs that never found the target whatsoever. The fact still remains that Valuev threw more in all 12 rounds. Holyfield connected more in 8 from the 12 rounds.

We fully agreed that Holyfield won rounds 2,3,5 and 11 and Valuev won rounds 6,7 and 8.

The other 5 rounds there could all be some debate on and were hard to score. It should be noted that Holyfield did score more connects in 4 of those 5 however.

Upon rewatching the fight I scored it 116-115 in favour of Holyfield. Still very very close though! And I 100% dispute anyone who says it was a clearcut shutout type win still.

Does anybody think Valuev won?

Not me

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Originally Posted by J_C

Hey guys,

Me and my mate who is also into boxing analysed this fight this afternoon for about an hour and a half. Pretty sick and sadistic I know as it was such a bad fight but we disagreed on the outcome (he had Holy winning by a few points) and we wanted to settle our dispute. We counted everything thrown and everything landed (which isnt quite as time consuming as it may sound due to the lack of activity in the fight). Obviously theres some margin for error but I think we did a good job.

Here are the punch stats...(Round - Valuev - Holyfield)

1 - 37/2 - 19/6
2 - 21/2 - 13/6
3 - 23/2 - 11/7
4 - 32/6 - 18/8
5 - 24/2 - 19/5
6 - 51/7 - 13/6
7 - 37/9 - 13/7
8 - 40/9 - 27/6
9 - 29/5 - 20/4
10 - 35/3 - 17/5
11 - 30/4 - 18/7
12 - 43/1 - 15/3

Valuev 52/402 13%
Holyfield 70/203 34%

As I suspected and said earlier in the thread Valuev threw more but Holyfield landed more. Valuev threw twice as many infact although it really has to be said the majority of those were very weak jabs that never found the target whatsoever. The fact still remains that Valuev threw more in all 12 rounds. Holyfield connected more in 8 from the 12 rounds.

We fully agreed that Holyfield won rounds 2,3,5 and 11 and Valuev won rounds 6,7 and 8.

The other 5 rounds there could all be some debate on and were hard to score. It should be noted that Holyfield did score more connects in 4 of those 5 however.

Upon rewatching the fight I scored it 116-115 in favour of Holyfield. Still very very close though! And I 100% dispute anyone who says it was a clearcut shutout type win still.

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Wow Valuev averaged 4.3 landed punches per round!! That's horrible. And the exclamation point is the championship round he landed one punch!!
Just out of curiousity what did Valuev do that made you give him rounds 6,7 and 8, was it just activity?

J_C you definately put the effort into judging the fight objectively, and came out with a different result. I comend you for that cause I know you had Valuev winning originally. I still think Holy won 10-2 or 9-3 based on his better percentage landed and more punches landed. The close rounds I couldnt give to give to Valuev based on him only landing 3 or 4 punches and Holyfield landing more while staying a step ahead and making Valuev miss. Still low numbers but enough to win the rounds. No masterpiece by any means but Evander should have won.

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Originally Posted by Kel

Evander bounced around on his toes

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Hes not back on reality telly in a ball room dancing competition unfortunately, Valuev did outland him, Holyfield did bugger all other then skirt around the ring:rolleyes:

Way past time for Holyfield to retire. Valuev won.

The judges actually was doing Holyfield a favor, IMO. Sending him a message to hang it up while he still can, and before getting seriously hurt.

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Originally Posted by Preme

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Normaly when there are controvercial judges score cards there are some who think they got it wrong and some who think they got it right.

Does anybody think they got it right last night?

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Soon as i find the fight on rapidshare to download i'll let you know mush

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Dont bother mate lifes too short.watch just one round and take it from there.

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by Kel

Evander bounced around on his toes

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Hes not back on reality telly in a ball room dancing competition unfortunately, Valuev did outland him, Holyfield did bugger all other then skirt around the ring:rolleyes:

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According to the punch track stats Holyfield outlanded Valuev, Holyfield effectively countered Valuev and fought his fight all 12 rounds. Horrible fight, but Holyfield based on any scenario other that missed punches won this easily. Here is the criteria for scoring a round


clean punching. Knowing that Valuev landed 13% and indeed during the bout Valuev landed one meaningful shot the entire match. I would give a maximum 3 rounds to Valuev based on this criteria.

effective aggressiveness. Did not exist in this bout IMO I could not award this category to either combatant because of lack of activity.

ring generalship. Clearly Holyfield wins here, he fought his fight all 12 rounds, Valuev did nothing but clumsily pivot and throw wide shots on the occasion that he threw at all, Holyfield CHOSE the range, tempo and angles.

defense. Holyfield was landing when he threw and Valuev wasn't. Holyfield owns this too.
I don't understand how anyone could give this fight to Valuev..

Just watched a couple rounds. Valuev is beyond a joke now. Chagaev needs to up the pace and try and KO him next time, so we're rid of him. He was a curiousity at first, and is a naturally tough guy, but should not be champ of the world.

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by Kel

Evander bounced around on his toes

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Hes not back on reality telly in a ball room dancing competition unfortunately, Valuev did outland him, Holyfield did bugger all other then skirt around the ring:rolleyes:

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He made Valuev look as poor as he always has been. Valuev can't hit a moving target for shit!..He ain't got the speed to land one. Holyfields ring generalship won rounds, Valuev could not mount any form of attack.

[quote=killersheep;657823][quote=ross;657295]

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Originally Posted by Kel

According to the punch track stats Holyfield outlanded Valuev

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Id like to know where you got the stats from because Ive seen so many people give Holyfield the first and last rounds on punches landed and its just bullshiit.

I say he first and last because they were the only 2 I could be bothered to rewatch and count and Holyfield is outpunched, someone on here claimed to have counted the first round punches and Valuev only had 2!! Rubbish, he didn t land a great deal more but he did land more.

Also, ring generlship is not running around, controling the centre of the ring and bossing a fight is, thats why its called general....ship.

Im more annoyed with Valuev for not putting more of an effort in because in the late rounds he could have quite easy just pushed the old drug cheat over;D

[quote=ross;657877][quote=killersheep;657823]

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Originally Posted by ross

Id like to know where you got the stats from because Ive seen so many people give Holyfield the first and last rounds on punches landed and its just bullshiit.

I say he first and last because they were the only 2 I could be bothered to rewatch and count and Holyfield is outpunched, someone on here claimed to have counted the first round punches and Valuev only had 2!! Rubbish, he didn t land a great deal more but he did land more.

Also, ring generlship is not running around, controling the centre of the ring and bossing a fight is, thats why its called general....ship.

Im more annoyed with Valuev for not putting more of an effort in because in the late rounds he could have quite easy just pushed the old drug cheat over;D

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According to the 1929 Rules of the New York State Athletic Commission, for example, “ring generalship” comprised "such points as the ability to quickly grasp and take advantage of every opportunity offered, the capacity to cope with all kinds of situations which may arise; to foresee and neutralize an opponent’s method of attack; to force an opponent to adopt a style of boxing at which he is not particularly skillful."

[quote=ross;657877][quote=killersheep;657823]

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Originally Posted by ross

Id like to know where you got the stats from because Ive seen so many people give Holyfield the first and last rounds on punches landed and its just bullshiit.

I say he first and last because they were the only 2 I could be bothered to rewatch and count and Holyfield is outpunched, someone on here claimed to have counted the first round punches and Valuev only had 2!! Rubbish, he didn t land a great deal more but he did land more.

Also, ring generlship is not running around, controling the centre of the ring and bossing a fight is, thats why its called general....ship.

Im more annoyed with Valuev for not putting more of an effort in because in the late rounds he could have quite easy just pushed the old drug cheat over;D

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Ring generalship involves neutralising your opponents offence, Holyfield did plenty of that in my opinion, using his movement.

[quote=killersheep;657882][quote=ross;657877]

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Originally Posted by killersheep

According to the 1929 Rules of the New York State Athletic Commission, for example, “ring generalship” comprised "such points as the ability to quickly grasp and take advantage of every opportunity offered, the capacity to cope with all kinds of situations which may arise; to foresee and neutralize an opponent’s method of attack; to force an opponent to adopt a style of boxing at which he is not particularly skillful."

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And what he said ;D

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Originally Posted by killersheep

force an opponent to adopt a style of boxing at which he is not particularly skillful."

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You mean like Valuev forcing Evan Fields in to his Fred Astair routine;D

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by killersheep

force an opponent to adopt a style of boxing at which he is not particularly skillful."

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You mean like Valuev forcing Evan Fields in to his Fred Astair routine;D

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Holyfield's strategy was to keep Valuev turning and counter when Yeti got close. He did that, Valuev looked unskilled in the chase. Tell me ross, what was Valuev's strategy?