Just wondering, because they have manny number one, but most of the time the fighters that have been ranked number 1 have gone to other's divisions and beaten them. RJJ, PERNELL, FLOYD, SHANE. Not once did either of them demand a catch weight.
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Just wondering, because they have manny number one, but most of the time the fighters that have been ranked number 1 have gone to other's divisions and beaten them. RJJ, PERNELL, FLOYD, SHANE. Not once did either of them demand a catch weight.
None of the fights that propelled Pacquiao to the top of most peoples P4P rankings were fought at a catchweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Rightly stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHNone of the fights that propelled Pacquiao to the top of most peoples P4P rankings were fought at a catchweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Like the fighters you mentioned, Manny has won the title in many divisions.
Aren't P4P Rankings all hypothetical? Why should weight even matter?
I think Pac should still be #1 p4p with the demanding of catchweights. I just don't think its even close to sensible for a weightclass title to be on the line when his team is demanding a catchweight for a title. That is a shenanigan that further sets boxing back. But what I do think this demanding of catchweights does is question his confidence and tarnish credibility. The all time greats went directly to the weight classes and fought the best in it. They never tried to gain an advantage by squeezing the bigger guy down to a weight determined by their team. If Pac's team was asking a small welterweight to a catchweight then thats reasonable. But they are going completely opposite. Roach has admitted his tactic by saying PBF is the only welterweight he would let Pac fight at 147 and that Mosley and Cotto have to meet at a catchweight. Leonard was way smaller than Hagler. He went to his weight class. That is all time greatness the fans want to see.
The catchweights are bullshit.
Theres no two ways about it.
I agree with that, but the fact that's he's demanding catchweights right now has no bearing on the fights that led to him being the #1 P4P fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
Why is there so much hate about catchweights?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?
The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.
If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.
They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.
We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.
That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.
What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.
Well its not pac that is yet schedule for a catchweight fight, the p4p #2 and former #1 is. Floyd and jmm is at a catchweight already scheduled. the question should be...can someone who claims to be p4p #1 g.o.a.t fight at a catchweight below his division to fight a fighter 2-3 division below? ;)
Plus have any of those other p4p guys ever gone up in weight as much as pac?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
I didnt think so.
catchweights have nothing to do with p4p rankings.
I have no problem with fighters that agree with each other fighting at whatever weight. As brought up before my only problem is the title that's on the line.
Manny never fought at catchweight though.
Weight or weight class? Because Jones went from JMW to HW..that's plus 40 pounds..Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius RainPlus have any of those other p4p guys ever gone up in weight as much as pac?Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
I didnt think so.
Manny went from 106 to 145 that's 39lbs ;D
Two thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
1) Floyd, RJJ, Pernell, and Shane never went up as many weightclasses as Manny has, and to this point Manny hasn't foughten anyone at a catch weight.
You mean the same Leonard that demanded Donny Lalonde to fight at 168 for his LHW title. That Leonard? How about JCC demanding Whitaker fight at a catchweight of 145 for his WBC ww title? Or how about Oscar demanding a 39 year old Hopkins come in at 158 for his MW titles? I thought you said the all time greats didn't demand catchweights?Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
Pacman isn't the first to demand catchweights, and there isn't any story out there saying that the WW titles are on the line.
Bad/pointless original post receive many response.
Have always thought the p4p a media frenzy...a tag line for quick consumption that is extremly subjective.A dominate and defending fighter meeting his biggest challenges in a given division is what we need. Shite....people focus on a catchweight prior to a bout but how about the actual "unofficial' weight of each fighter once the bell rings.A catchweight too and fro.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliHave always thought the p4p a media frenzy...a tag line for quick consumption that is extremly subjective.A dominate and defending fighter meeting his biggest challenges in a given division is what we need. Shite....people focus on a catchweight prior to a bout but how about the actual "unofficial' weight of each fighter once the bell rings.A catchweight too and fro.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Why does it really matter what weight the fight is at, what belt is on the line, what division (or not) that the fight is being held?
What's important is that the best fight each other.
If Manny were to fight Floyd, Shane or Miguel at a catchweight I don't care less. All I care about is that they fight at the best weight that will give us the best fight!
If Manny is too small at 147 let them fight at 143, I don't care if he's fighting for a world title really, it doesn't make the fight any less important, or more importantly entertaining, and that ultimately is all I care about.
I agree that the best fights should be made, but if 143 is too light for the bigger guys then what?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliHave always thought the p4p a media frenzy...a tag line for quick consumption that is extremly subjective.A dominate and defending fighter meeting his biggest challenges in a given division is what we need. Shite....people focus on a catchweight prior to a bout but how about the actual "unofficial' weight of each fighter once the bell rings.A catchweight too and fro.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Why does it really matter what weight the fight is at, what belt is on the line, what division (or not) that the fight is being held?
What's important is that the best fight each other.
If Manny were to fight Floyd, Shane or Miguel at a catchweight I don't care less. All I care about is that they fight at the best weight that will give us the best fight!
If Manny is too small at 147 let them fight at 143, I don't care if he's fighting for a world title really, it doesn't make the fight any less important, or more importantly entertaining, and that ultimately is all I care about.
I admit I did complained when I thought the titles were on the line for the catchweight,but thinking about it now people like Bilbo has a point. I just want to see great fighters fight. So a healthy weight for both at a catch weight is fine.
I mean did anyone really complain when JCC fought Whitaker at a catchweight? Or how about Hopkins and Oscar DLH? How about Pavlik-Hopkins?
In this day and age when there are so many championships per division, it really doesn't matter anymore about a title. It just lost it's luster with so many champions per division.
well said. nice point.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Well my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhy is there so much hate about catchweights?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?
The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.
If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.
They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.
We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.
That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.
What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.
Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.
So are mouth pieces.
And rounds.
Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?
lol
The weight classes are there for a reason.
Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.
Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.
That is not the Christian way.
And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.
:coolclick::thumb::goodpost::beerchug: [/:appl: loved the sarcasm at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkWell my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhy is there so much hate about catchweights?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?
The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.
If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.
They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.
We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.
That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.
What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.
Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.
So are mouth pieces.
And rounds.
Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?
lol
The weight classes are there for a reason.
Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.
Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.
That is not the Christian way.
And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.
Nah I don't agree with that at all. There is no 'his' weight for any fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by HulkWell my JFAT Alliance brother, I must disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhy is there so much hate about catchweights?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I mean what's important is that the best fighters face each other, and do so at the weight that is healthiest for both of them?
The alphabet belts and even weights divisions don't mean anything in the great scheme of things, both are creations of man to help give the sport a sense of order but they are nothing more than that.
If Manny was to fight and beat Miguel Cotto at 143 for example it would make no difference at all to the merit of the win than were it fought at 140 or 147 imo.
They are still fighting each other, and 143 would be the best compromise.
We shouldn't let entirely man made organisational constructs like weight divisions and belts get in the way of making the best fights.
That's just letting beaurocracy blind your senses and stopping you from enjoying the great fights.
What matters in boxing is the best fighters fighting the best fighters. Belts and weight classes are there to help organise that process and provide a structure but they shouldn't supersede the main goal of putting on the best fights.
Boxing Gloves are man made contructions.
So are mouth pieces.
And rounds.
Why don't we just have them fight it out to the death to see who is TRULY the best?
lol
The weight classes are there for a reason.
Cotto has been fighting at 147 for a few years now and if Pacquaio wants to fight him, then he can fight him at HIS weight.
Not make him drain and starve himself down to a weight that gives pac man an advantage over him before they even step in the ring.
That is not the Christian way.
And Pacquaio is a devout Catholic from what I understand.
Your argument is kind of lost on me to be honest. The ONLY reason we have weight divisions and mouthguards is for health and safety. If all mankind weighed the same, or if the size and weight of humans made no difference to boxing performance we would have no weight classses at all, do you agree?
It would be like tennis, golf, chess etc with everybody competing against everybody, no allowances made for size. That would be preferable and ideal.
Unfortunately size does make a difference so the weight classes were invented purely to allow little guys to have fights and be competitive, a weight class for everybody to fight in.
But its man made and artificial. Mouthgaurds are only there for health and safety too, if they wern't needed we would get rid of them.
Shorts are there for public decency and to protect a mans bits from view (and harm) whilst the gloves, although originally for public safety are now very much a feature of how boxing is fought. It would fundamentally change the nature of how boxers fight if you took the gloves away, basically turning boxing into something else, bare knuckle fighting which is a different sport.
Back to the weights, as I said ultimately they are only there to serve man, to allow smaller guys to fight each other. They exist for NO other reason tham to facilitate competition between guys smaller than heavyweight.
So in a sense your argument is illogical as now you are seeking to prevent a fight taking place when the only reason weight classes exist is to allow these fights to happen.
You say Pacquaio should move up and fight at 147 to beat Cotto in HIS weight class but why? I personally couldn't care less if Manny beats Miguel at 147 lbs or 143 lbs, what matters is that they fight at an agreed weight.
If Cotto was too drained at 143 then he can reject the fight, likewise if Manny feels 147 is too big he can reject the fight but allowing them to fight at a catchweight at least gives them more leverage and the chance for this incredible fight to happen.
Weight classes is just a way to facilitate the possibility of arranging fights don't let it become a stumbling block!
Remember my Christian friend and take heed of the Jews who for almost two thousand years were commanded by God to carry out the sacrifices and rituals that made them aware of their sin and their need for salvation and a Saviour.
When their Saviour did come, Jesus the Christ, to free them from their bondage of ritual and sacrifice they rejected Him on account of him violating the very laws He created to make them aware of their sin and need for God's power to deliver them from it!
This is typical of mankind! Rituals (and weight classes) are created to serve our needs and we choose to become slaves to them and willingly enter in to bondage!
The weight that Cotto and Manny fight at IS NOT IMPORTANT, what matters is THAT THEY DO!
:soapbox: :)
Welcome to Saddoboxing mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ER-101
I agree that there is WAY too much emphasis on P4P. Maybe emphasis is the wrong word but the ratings just seems TOO Official these days...
They are re just a Magazine ratings... Ratings from a magazine that is owned by a Boxer come Promoter.
Its all very incestuous. :-\
Now onto Catchweights. They suck. They all ways have and always will. Weightclasses are there for a reason. I mean, as it is there are too many weightclasses in the lower divisions!
Health and safety aside, negotiating over 3 pounds is IMO very unmanly.
Again i bring up my point about the Heavyweights... How is it that there is a complete objection to introducing an intermediate weightclass to RE (Note the word RE) Bridge the gap between Heavyweight and Cruiserweight, yet so many of you think that it is perfectly fine to fight at catchweights?
Fighters these days strip down to their lowest weight to fight the smallest opponents possible (again something i find very unmanly but there you go.) so its safe to assume that if they could go lower, they would..
So I just dont understand... If we all know Cotto wont perform well at 143. And we all know its a huge risk to ask a 37 year old (Mosley) to strip even more poundage at this point in his career... Why make a point for Catchweight's if there CLEARLY not viable? ???
If the fight doesn't work, the fight doesn't work period.
We don't know that Cotto cannot make 143 or 144 lbs. He looked drained in his last fights at 140 but a halfway house might be a balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimboogieWelcome to Saddoboxing mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ER-101
I agree that there is WAY too much emphasis on P4P. Maybe emphasis is the wrong word but the ratings just seems TOO Official these days...
They are re just a Magazine ratings... Ratings from a magazine that is owned by a Boxer come Promoter.
Its all very incestuous. :-\
Now onto Catchweights. They suck. They all ways have and always will. Weightclasses are there for a reason. I mean, as it is there are too many weightclasses in the lower divisions!
Health and safety aside, negotiating over 3 pounds is IMO very unmanly.
Again i bring up my point about the Heavyweights... How is it that there is a complete objection to introducing an intermediate weightclass to RE (Note the word RE) Bridge the gap between Heavyweight and Cruiserweight, yet so many of you think that it is perfectly fine to fight at catchweights?
Fighters these days strip down to their lowest weight to fight the smallest opponents possible (again something i find very unmanly but there you go.) so its safe to assume that if they could go lower, they would..
So I just dont understand... If we all know Cotto wont perform well at 143. And we all know its a huge risk to ask a 37 year old (Mosley) to strip even more poundage at this point in his career... Why make a point for Catchweight's if there CLEARLY not viable? ???
If the fight doesn't work, the fight doesn't work period.
Cotto is much bigger than Manny so for Manny to fight him at 147 is to his disadvantage. 143-44 represents a compromise. And you could hardly call Manny of being unmanly. If he was a career junior welter weight then fair enough, suck it up and move up a division but this is a guy who has already stormed through 7 (SEVEN!!!!!!) weight classes, so cutting his some slack over a few lbs in order to allow a MEGAFIGHT to happen is hardly a big deal.
As for another weight class between cruiser and heavyweight I don't believe the boxers themselves want it. Very few heavyweights would want to move down to a halfway division and miss out on the glamour of being in the heavyweights if they can fight there, it represents the pinnacle of our great sport after all, the Premier Division so to speak, you win the heavyweight title you are the best boxer in the world, in an absolute sense.
Also there is such a thing as critical mass and its been proven in countless fights in the heavyweight division over the years that beyond a certain point sheer size is simply no longer an advantage. The extra bulk comes at the cost of speed and mobility and even power, very few giant heavyweights have been one punch knockout artists.
So in the heavyweight division the difference between a man weighing 215 lbs (providing he is able to use his superior speed and mobility) and a man weighing even up to 300 lbs makes no difference in favouring one fighter over another. The better boxer will likely win, an example most would expect David Haye to smash Nikolay Valuev, certainly the 70 lbs or so he gave up would be offset by the much greater speed of the smaller man.
This simply isn't the case at lower weights where size matters more, although I do feel truly great fighters are able to overcome that to a greater degree.
But regarding catchweights, for someone like Manny who began at straweight I believe he's already proven himself man enough by tearing through 7 weight classes. We can definitely cut him some slack here and imo it's Cotto who is not the 'man' if he feels unable to cut 3 or 4 lbs compared to the 20 or lbs Pacquaio would have moved up in the past couple years.
If it was Hatton wanting a catchweight at 143 I agree gay as fuck, but Manny has earned the right and the 'machismo' burden to give something up to allow the fight to happen and prove he's the best falls very much on Cotto, Floyd or Mosely in this case imo.
I forgot to answer this directly towards you. Sugar Ray Leonard VS. Lalonde for the LHW championship at 168 and considering Sugar Ray was the #1 p4p. Julio Cesar Chavez VS. Pernell Whtaker at 145 for his Welterweight title and JCC was the #1 p4p. Oscar De La Hoya VS. Bernard Hopkins at 158 for the MW titles, even though Oscar at that time was not the #1 p4p but he was in the late 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And no one was complaining about catch weights with Hopkins-DLH, Hopkins-Wright, Hopkins-Pavlik, JCC-Whitaker, Floyd-Marquez, Leonard-Lalonde, Oscar-Pacman (And 99.99% of the people out there predicted DLH by KO).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Hey these guys don't have to fight Pac. If they want to stay at the weight that is comfortable for them, let them fight someone else. No one is holding a gun to their heads.
What I find incredible about this is that less than two years ago if anyone speculated that Manny could move up to knockout Oscar De La Hoya, destroy Ricky Hatton and then go and fight Miguel Cotto everyone would say that person was FUCKING INSANE!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciferTheGreatQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Hey these guys don't have to fight Pac. If they want to stay at the weight that is comfortable for them, let them fight someone else. No one is holding a gun to their heads.
Yet now these same people are now moaning because Manny doesn't want to move up to 147 lbs to face Cotto and instead wants the fight at 143-144 :vd:
Let me ask people this, if Bernard Hopkins chose to fight David Haye at an agreed weight limit of 210lbs would people be moaning that BHop was a coward in forcing Haye to shed pounds? (actually some probably would :rolleyes: ) but if they did they would be fucking idiots.
Haye vs Hopkins at 210-215 lbs would be a great matchup and a tremendous fight we'd all love to see, at heavyweight it simply couldn't happen as Hopkins would be giving up too much but if a catchweight allows for a potentially great fight to happen that otherwise wouldn't then let's use the flexibility of catchweights.
It's just about making weight issues work FOR us and not AGAINST us.
It's an interesting universal human trait for mankind to create traditions, rituals, beaurocracies and rules to help mankind and then for us to lose sight of why they were created in the first place and elevate the particular ritual, law, tradition, rule etc above the reason it was enacted in the first place.
Jesus was full of condemnation for the blindness of the Pharisees who did this, and we all see it in religion, people totally devoted to ritual and religious practice but completely missing the true meaning of why they are carrying these out in the first place. The rituals and rites become that persons true God.
That's what these opposing a catchweight are doing, using the weight divisions, which were created to help make fights between people of different weights, now to actually be a reason for stopping a fight taking place, its lunacy.
Well obviously if they feel that is too light they don't agree to fight there! It's all about increasing options. If Manny feels he's at too much of a disadvantage to fight guys like Cotto and Mosely at 147 lbs then the fight ain't going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI agree that the best fights should be made, but if 143 is too light for the bigger guys then what?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Why does it really matter what weight the fight is at, what belt is on the line, what division (or not) that the fight is being held?
What's important is that the best fight each other.
If Manny were to fight Floyd, Shane or Miguel at a catchweight I don't care less. All I care about is that they fight at the best weight that will give us the best fight!
If Manny is too small at 147 let them fight at 143, I don't care if he's fighting for a world title really, it doesn't make the fight any less important, or more importantly entertaining, and that ultimately is all I care about.
BUT if there is the possibility of the two fighters negotiating an agreed weight between themselves the chances of the fight happening are greatly increased!
I can understand the argument that fighting in a proper weight class is the ideal but why on earth would anyone put the importance of fighters sticking to weight classes above the fights happening in the first place, as I said before it's such a ridiculous mindset!
In all seriousness if the fights can't happen at 147 lbs because Manny feels he's too disadvantaged are some of you guys saying you would rather not have the fight at all then let the fighters agree a weight suitable to both so the fight can happen???
If any of you really value the importance of fighting in strict weight classes over the importance of the best fights being made at all I put it to you in the nicest possible way that you are freaking nuts! :D
I'm just not up for watching another pac v delahoya..that was some bullshit and if there's a chance that any of the welters could come in looking like that then I'd rather manny stick to 140 or below and the WW's fight each other...there are still good and better fights to be made at WW without manny..soQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell obviously if they feel that is too light they don't agree to fight there! It's all about increasing options. If Manny feels he's at too much of a disadvantage to fight guys like Cotto and Mosely at 147 lbs then the fight ain't going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI agree that the best fights should be made, but if 143 is too light for the bigger guys then what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
BUT if there is the possibility of the two fighters negotiating an agreed weight between themselves the chances of the fight happening are greatly increased!
I can understand the argument that fighting in a proper weight class is the ideal but why on earth would anyone put the importance of fighters sticking to weight classes above the fights happening in the first place, as I said before it's such a ridiculous mindset!
In all seriousness if the fights can't happen at 147 lbs because Manny feels he's too disadvantaged are some of you guys saying you would rather not have the fight at all then let the fighters agree a weight suitable to both so the fight can happen???
If any of you really value the importance of fighting in strict weight classes over the importance of the best fights being made at all I put it to you in the nicest possible way that you are freaking nuts! :D
Asking Cotto to give up 4 maybe even just 3 lbs is hardly another De La Hoya. Oscar came down an entire weight class that he hadn't fought in for 8 years! In fact he didn't even go down to 147, he weighed in at 142!!Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherI'm just not up for watching another pac v delahoya..that was some bullshit and if there's a chance that any of the welters could come in looking like that then I'd rather manny stick to 140 or below and the WW's fight each other...there are still good and better fights to be made at WW without manny..soQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell obviously if they feel that is too light they don't agree to fight there! It's all about increasing options. If Manny feels he's at too much of a disadvantage to fight guys like Cotto and Mosely at 147 lbs then the fight ain't going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
BUT if there is the possibility of the two fighters negotiating an agreed weight between themselves the chances of the fight happening are greatly increased!
I can understand the argument that fighting in a proper weight class is the ideal but why on earth would anyone put the importance of fighters sticking to weight classes above the fights happening in the first place, as I said before it's such a ridiculous mindset!
In all seriousness if the fights can't happen at 147 lbs because Manny feels he's too disadvantaged are some of you guys saying you would rather not have the fight at all then let the fighters agree a weight suitable to both so the fight can happen???
If any of you really value the importance of fighting in strict weight classes over the importance of the best fights being made at all I put it to you in the nicest possible way that you are freaking nuts! :D
Cotto was fighting at 140 only 3 years ago and being 7 years younger than Oscar doesn't have the slowed metabolism that Oscar has.
It's no way comparable, not even close.
IMHO if PAC was not succesful in destroying both ODLH and Hatton this catchweight topics will not even be brought up. Obviously alot of people is threatened by PAC. Give the guy a break he will lose too, sometime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.
A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans
Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWe don't know that Cotto cannot make 143 or 144 lbs. He looked drained in his last fights at 140 but a halfway house might be a balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimboogieWelcome to Saddoboxing mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ER-101
I agree that there is WAY too much emphasis on P4P. Maybe emphasis is the wrong word but the ratings just seems TOO Official these days...
They are re just a Magazine ratings... Ratings from a magazine that is owned by a Boxer come Promoter.
Its all very incestuous. :-\
Now onto Catchweights. They suck. They all ways have and always will. Weightclasses are there for a reason. I mean, as it is there are too many weightclasses in the lower divisions!
Health and safety aside, negotiating over 3 pounds is IMO very unmanly.
Again i bring up my point about the Heavyweights... How is it that there is a complete objection to introducing an intermediate weightclass to RE (Note the word RE) Bridge the gap between Heavyweight and Cruiserweight, yet so many of you think that it is perfectly fine to fight at catchweights?
Fighters these days strip down to their lowest weight to fight the smallest opponents possible (again something i find very unmanly but there you go.) so its safe to assume that if they could go lower, they would..
So I just dont understand... If we all know Cotto wont perform well at 143. And we all know its a huge risk to ask a 37 year old (Mosley) to strip even more poundage at this point in his career... Why make a point for Catchweight's if there CLEARLY not viable? ???
If the fight doesn't work, the fight doesn't work period.
Cotto is much bigger than Manny so for Manny to fight him at 147 is to his disadvantage. 143-44 represents a compromise. And you could hardly call Manny of being unmanly. If he was a career junior welter weight then fair enough, suck it up and move up a division but this is a guy who has already stormed through 7 (SEVEN!!!!!!) weight classes, so cutting his some slack over a few lbs in order to allow a MEGAFIGHT to happen is hardly a big deal.
As for another weight class between cruiser and heavyweight I don't believe the boxers themselves want it. Very few heavyweights would want to move down to a halfway division and miss out on the glamour of being in the heavyweights if they can fight there, it represents the pinnacle of our great sport after all, the Premier Division so to speak, you win the heavyweight title you are the best boxer in the world, in an absolute sense.
Also there is such a thing as critical mass and its been proven in countless fights in the heavyweight division over the years that beyond a certain point sheer size is simply no longer an advantage. The extra bulk comes at the cost of speed and mobility and even power, very few giant heavyweights have been one punch knockout artists.
So in the heavyweight division the difference between a man weighing 215 lbs (providing he is able to use his superior speed and mobility) and a man weighing even up to 300 lbs makes no difference in favouring one fighter over another. The better boxer will likely win, an example most would expect David Haye to smash Nikolay Valuev, certainly the 70 lbs or so he gave up would be offset by the much greater speed of the smaller man.
This simply isn't the case at lower weights where size matters more, although I do feel truly great fighters are able to overcome that to a greater degree.
But regarding catchweights, for someone like Manny who began at straweight I believe he's already proven himself man enough by tearing through 7 weight classes. We can definitely cut him some slack here and imo it's Cotto who is not the 'man' if he feels unable to cut 3 or 4 lbs compared to the 20 or lbs Pacquaio would have moved up in the past couple years.
If it was Hatton wanting a catchweight at 143 I agree gay as fuck, but Manny has earned the right and the 'machismo' burden to give something up to allow the fight to happen and prove he's the best falls very much on Cotto, Floyd or Mosely in this case imo.
But this is it. WHY should Manny Pacquiao, or Anybody be given any ''Slack'' for a shot at Glory?
Did Roy Jones ask Ruiz to cut a stone to make a fair fight? No.
Roy bulked up as much as he saw reasonable and just got on with it.
Your Haye Valuev comments are a bit of a contradiction IMO. 70lbs difference is okay for two heavyweights but ''size matters more in the lower divisions'' ???
That's absolute rubbish Bill. Manny Fighting at 147 is a problem but Haye fighting a 300lbs monster is cool?
Surely you can see this is nonsense?
No Bill. 147 WAS the catchweight :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Good point and Oscar Pac wasn't even a catchweight fight! They fought at 147 lbs, a legit weight class.
A catchweight would have been between 147 and 154 and better for Oscar and for fightfans
We all saw the effects that had.
You seriously think David Haye is facing a tougher challenge against Nikolay Valuev than Bernard Hopkins would than fighting David Haye? I can't even debate that, that's just the funniest thing I've ever heard :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JimboogieQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboWe don't know that Cotto cannot make 143 or 144 lbs. He looked drained in his last fights at 140 but a halfway house might be a balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Cotto is much bigger than Manny so for Manny to fight him at 147 is to his disadvantage. 143-44 represents a compromise. And you could hardly call Manny of being unmanly. If he was a career junior welter weight then fair enough, suck it up and move up a division but this is a guy who has already stormed through 7 (SEVEN!!!!!!) weight classes, so cutting his some slack over a few lbs in order to allow a MEGAFIGHT to happen is hardly a big deal.
As for another weight class between cruiser and heavyweight I don't believe the boxers themselves want it. Very few heavyweights would want to move down to a halfway division and miss out on the glamour of being in the heavyweights if they can fight there, it represents the pinnacle of our great sport after all, the Premier Division so to speak, you win the heavyweight title you are the best boxer in the world, in an absolute sense.
Also there is such a thing as critical mass and its been proven in countless fights in the heavyweight division over the years that beyond a certain point sheer size is simply no longer an advantage. The extra bulk comes at the cost of speed and mobility and even power, very few giant heavyweights have been one punch knockout artists.
So in the heavyweight division the difference between a man weighing 215 lbs (providing he is able to use his superior speed and mobility) and a man weighing even up to 300 lbs makes no difference in favouring one fighter over another. The better boxer will likely win, an example most would expect David Haye to smash Nikolay Valuev, certainly the 70 lbs or so he gave up would be offset by the much greater speed of the smaller man.
This simply isn't the case at lower weights where size matters more, although I do feel truly great fighters are able to overcome that to a greater degree.
But regarding catchweights, for someone like Manny who began at straweight I believe he's already proven himself man enough by tearing through 7 weight classes. We can definitely cut him some slack here and imo it's Cotto who is not the 'man' if he feels unable to cut 3 or 4 lbs compared to the 20 or lbs Pacquaio would have moved up in the past couple years.
If it was Hatton wanting a catchweight at 143 I agree gay as fuck, but Manny has earned the right and the 'machismo' burden to give something up to allow the fight to happen and prove he's the best falls very much on Cotto, Floyd or Mosely in this case imo.
But this is it. WHY should Manny Pacquiao, or Anybody be given any ''Slack'' for a shot at Glory?
Did Roy Jones ask Ruiz to cut a stone to make a fair fight? No.
Roy bulked up as much as he saw reasonable and just got on with it.
Your Haye Valuev comments are a bit of a contradiction IMO. 70lbs difference is okay for two heavyweights but ''size matters more in the lower divisions'' ???
That's absolute rubbish Bill. Manny Fighting at 147 is a problem but Haye fighting a 300lbs monster is cool?
Surely you can see this is nonsense?
As I said before size matters only up to a critical mass. Humans have a critical mass like ALL animals, a maximum size and weight above which their size can count against them. Valueve on account of his size is slow as fuck.
Regarding Roy Jones against John Ruiz. This actually highlights my point. Roy in moving up to heavyweight to achieve the goal of fighting a heavyweight world champ had to pick the SHITTEST heavyweight champ out there. He didn't beat a real champ, he beat a paper belt trinket holder.
Manny Pacquio is on about fighting either Cotto or Shane Mosely unquestionable the BEST fighters int the welterweight division and WORLD CLASS operators. Ruiz was and always has been a very mediocre champ.
As for not cutting Pacqauio any slack for a shot at glory, why should he have to fight Cotto at Cotto's weight any more than Cotto should fight Manny at Manny's weight?
Manny is the p4p number 1 recognised by everyone as the best fighter on the planet right now, Cotto is the guy who has something to prove.
Manny has already come up 7 weight classes why can't Cotto weight in at 2 lbs (just 2 freaking lbs) less than he weighed in against Clottey to make this fight happen?
And regarding the glory. What is the real glory, winning a trinket belt or beating Miguel Cotto?
The top champs are bigger than the belts, who gives a shit if Manny vs Cotto is for a belt or not, it's the fight that matters!!!
The ultimate goal of boxing HAS to be to give us the best, most entertaining and competitive matchups possible. We want to see the best fighters fight the best fighters.
The weight classes, world titles etc are there to help facilitate this, they are merely the methods by which we can help get the best fights. To put the weight classes and belts above the fights is ridiculous.
And HONESTLY you would rather see Ruiz vs Roy Jones at heavyweight than Cotto vs Pacquaio at 143 and Hopkins vs Haye at 210lbs?
In your heart of hearts, and not just to win an argument you think Ruiz vs Jones is better matchmaking, more entertaining, and a better fight for boxing in getting an audience than Cotto Paquaio at 143 and Hopkins vs Haye at 210? Seriously??? :confused:
Iv'e never mention Bernard Hopkins so i really don't understand this point ???Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Look, either way you slice it Roy facing Ruiz at Heavyweight or David Haye fighting Valuev is BY FAR a bigger challenge than Manny Paquiao fighting a man just 7lbs above him.
Actually at the HW division the weight really doesn't matter anymore. Tyson was routinely outweighed by 15-30 pounds and fought guys that were 5 to 6 inches taller than him and he won easily in the 80s, but people still consider what someone like Duran or Leonard did going up in weight to fight a guy such as Hagler as more impressive because like Bilbo said, size matters a lot at the lower weights more so than at HW.
It's hard for me to explain the physiology of it but Bilbo did a great job in explaining about it in his recent posts.
Whew. What a gallant speech from the great Bilbo. :appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYou seriously think David Haye is facing a tougher challenge against Nikolay Valuev than Bernard Hopkins would than fighting David Haye? I can't even debate that, that's just the funniest thing I've ever heard :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JimboogieQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
But this is it. WHY should Manny Pacquiao, or Anybody be given any ''Slack'' for a shot at Glory?
Did Roy Jones ask Ruiz to cut a stone to make a fair fight? No.
Roy bulked up as much as he saw reasonable and just got on with it.
Your Haye Valuev comments are a bit of a contradiction IMO. 70lbs difference is okay for two heavyweights but ''size matters more in the lower divisions'' ???
That's absolute rubbish Bill. Manny Fighting at 147 is a problem but Haye fighting a 300lbs monster is cool?
Surely you can see this is nonsense?
As I said before size matters only up to a critical mass. Humans have a critical mass like ALL animals, a maximum size and weight above which their size can count against them. Valueve on account of his size is slow as fuck.
Regarding Roy Jones against John Ruiz. This actually highlights my point. Roy in moving up to heavyweight to achieve the goal of fighting a heavyweight world champ had to pick the SHITTEST heavyweight champ out there. He didn't beat a real champ, he beat a paper belt trinket holder.
Manny Pacquio is on about fighting either Cotto or Shane Mosely unquestionable the BEST fighters int the welterweight division and WORLD CLASS operators. Ruiz was and always has been a very mediocre champ.
As for not cutting Pacqauio any slack for a shot at glory, why should he have to fight Cotto at Cotto's weight any more than Cotto should fight Manny at Manny's weight?
Manny is the p4p number 1 recognised by everyone as the best fighter on the planet right now, Cotto is the guy who has something to prove.
Manny has already come up 7 weight classes why can't Cotto weight in at 2 lbs (just 2 freaking lbs) less than he weighed in against Clottey to make this fight happen?
And regarding the glory. What is the real glory, winning a trinket belt or beating Miguel Cotto?
The top champs are bigger than the belts, who gives a shit if Manny vs Cotto is for a belt or not, it's the fight that matters!!!
The ultimate goal of boxing HAS to be to give us the best, most entertaining and competitive matchups possible. We want to see the best fighters fight the best fighters.
The weight classes, world titles etc are there to help facilitate this, they are merely the methods by which we can help get the best fights. To put the weight classes and belts above the fights is ridiculous.
And HONESTLY you would rather see Ruiz vs Roy Jones at heavyweight than Cotto vs Pacquaio at 143 and Hopkins vs Haye at 210lbs?
In your heart of hearts, and not just to win an argument you think Ruiz vs Jones is better matchmaking, more entertaining, and a better fight for boxing in getting an audience than Cotto Paquaio at 143 and Hopkins vs Haye at 210? Seriously??? :confused:
If I may make a comment, just last year, everybody was thinking that Cotto will be a monster against Pac in the 147 weight category. Even Bob Arum would not even dare to talk about Pac vs Cotto and obviously he has his rational reasons for not entertaining this match-up. It was only last year when Pac had to fight at lightweight and as many claim, he fought a weight drained DLH. So his wins at 135 and at 147 is still doubtful for many.
Any unbiased boxing fan knows that Pac fighting at 147 against one of the best in that division is suicidal. Even at a catchweight, I doubt Pac's chances against Cotto. Besides, against Cotto, Pac's greatest weapon and advantage is his speed. Gaining more weight than he's supposed to have would mean a relatively slower Pac.
If my memory does not fail me, Cotto won against Mosley who many considers to be a better counter puncher than Pac and whose speed is relatively comparable to Pac's speed.
Therefore, if Pac fights Cotto at 147, it would only mean one thing. He will be losing any advantage he may have against Cotto.
And Cotto's chances of winning will be tripled if not quadrupled. Cotto will have the advantages in power, speed(probably, based on his fight againt Mosley), reach, height. Not considering the fact that he has fought in that weight division for countless fights already.
While here comes our little hero who will be having his real debut in the weight category. Just be honest, do you still expect this match-up to be fair if made at 147?
If Pac will be mercilessly destroyed at the hands of Cotto, can we honestly be happy about this fight despite the hatred which many claim to have against Pac fans?
As true boxing fans, can we not appreciate the fact that here's a great fighter in our midst who's unbelievably jumping 7 weight categories. Would we conspire against a boxing great just because we hate his fans?:-\
Why can't we give Pac a chance to test the waters and fight at a catchweight? This is his first.
Besides, we give that accomodation with Mayweather vs JMM. Why could we not give it to Pac? If Pac and JMM are almost equal in abilities, why the different treatment then?:cool: