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The difference between pac and floyd is purely boxing.
Pac has to fight marquez 4 times over a period of so many years and still cant win a clear decison over an old fighter.
There is no need for floyd to fight marquez ever again as it was so clear the domination.
If its close again, its the leg cramp excuse.
Pac ducks bradley to fight an old marquez..boxing stinks.
Since the fight was discussed 3 or 4 years ago, I never had any doubt in my mind that Mayweather would whip this guy. Floyd's speed, defense and counter punching would be absolute poison for Manny.
I think most people know this too, it's just they hate Mayweather SO much that they predict with their hearts and not with their brains.
If you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
I think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
This statement pretty much sums everything up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Well done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
The Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.
The Oscar that lost to Pac was a weight-drained, over-the-hill Oscar... looking for one more under-sized, famous scalp so he could ride off triumphantly into the sunset. It backfired in his face. The Oscar that lost to Floyd was much younger, closer to prime, and not weight-drained, fighting at 154.
The Mosley that fought Floyd was just coming off a crushing win over Margacheato, as mentioned by imp. His fight with Pac was later and toward the end of his career.
Hatton I won't include, because Hatton was in tip-top condition and said he was fighting for the world's p4p. Besides, he fought Floyd at 147, a weight he was NEVER comfortable at. He fought Pac at 140. Pac definitely put more of an exclamation point on his KTFO victory over Hatton than Floyd did.
Still, regardless of how each did against common opponents, Floyd beats the living daylights out of Pac if they were to meet today.
Weight makes all the difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
Manny fought Marquez at 126, 130 and both weighing 142.
Floyd fought Marquez once at welterweight with a big size advantage. Marquez dropped back to 135 immediately following the fight.
Clearly Marquez had a big disadvantage against Floyd, so comparing Pac/Floyd where Marquez is concerned is pointless?
You can make excuses for any losing fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
The Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.
The Oscar that lost to Pac was a weight-drained, over-the-hill Oscar... looking for one more under-sized, famous scalp so he could ride off triumphantly into the sunset. It backfired in his face. The Oscar that lost to Floyd was much younger, closer to prime, and not weight-drained, fighting at 154.
The Mosley that fought Floyd was just coming off a crushing win over Margacheato, as mentioned by imp. His fight with Pac was later and toward the end of his career.
Hatton I won't include, because Hatton was in tip-top condition and said he was fighting for the world's p4p. Besides, he fought Floyd at 147, a weight he was NEVER comfortable at. He fought Pac at 140. Pac definitely put more of an exclamation point on his KTFO victory over Hatton than Floyd did.
Still, regardless of how each did against common opponents, Floyd beats the living daylights out of Pac if they were to meet today.
Floyd may well beat Pac. But judging them on common opponents then Pac is his superior. Fact.
Pac KO'd Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and has beaten Mosley and Marquez knocking them both down.
Floyd won on points against Cotto, Mosley, Oscar, Marquez and KO'd Hatton eight rounds after Pac did it.
It's no comparison. Pac over Floyd.
@Fenster and @imp - there's arguments on both sides, as to who did better against common opposition.
I like Floyd over Manny. Styles make fights. Bottom line. It's tired though at this point. That said, I would prefer to see Sergio Martinez against Floyd at 154, or above.
Guerrero for Floyd, and Rios for Manny, neither fight does much for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterYou can make excuses for any losing fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
The Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.
The Oscar that lost to Pac was a weight-drained, over-the-hill Oscar... looking for one more under-sized, famous scalp so he could ride off triumphantly into the sunset. It backfired in his face. The Oscar that lost to Floyd was much younger, closer to prime, and not weight-drained, fighting at 154.
The Mosley that fought Floyd was just coming off a crushing win over Margacheato, as mentioned by imp. His fight with Pac was later and toward the end of his career.
Hatton I won't include, because Hatton was in tip-top condition and said he was fighting for the world's p4p. Besides, he fought Floyd at 147, a weight he was NEVER comfortable at. He fought Pac at 140. Pac definitely put more of an exclamation point on his KTFO victory over Hatton than Floyd did.
Still, regardless of how each did against common opponents, Floyd beats the living daylights out of Pac if they were to meet today.
Floyd may well beat Pac. But judging them on common opponents then Pac is his superior. Fact.
Pac KO'd Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and has beaten Mosley and Marquez knocking them both down.
Floyd won on points against Cotto, Mosley, Oscar, Marquez and KO'd Hatton eight rounds after Pac did it.
It's no comparison. Pac over Floyd.
Trevor Berbick beat Ali, who had beaten George Foreman.
Common opponents.
Berbick over Foreman?
If the argument is who did better against common opponents... Pac did.
If the argument is who would win between Pac and Floyd... Floyd would.
Also, it's probably a bit more realistic when doing a common opponent comparison to examine the whens, hows, and other factors involved.
I agree tito.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
The Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.
The Oscar that lost to Pac was a weight-drained, over-the-hill Oscar... looking for one more under-sized, famous scalp so he could ride off triumphantly into the sunset. It backfired in his face. The Oscar that lost to Floyd was much younger, closer to prime, and not weight-drained, fighting at 154.
The Mosley that fought Floyd was just coming off a crushing win over Margacheato, as mentioned by imp. His fight with Pac was later and toward the end of his career.
Hatton I won't include, because Hatton was in tip-top condition and said he was fighting for the world's p4p. Besides, he fought Floyd at 147, a weight he was NEVER comfortable at. He fought Pac at 140. Pac definitely put more of an exclamation point on his KTFO victory over Hatton than Floyd did.
Still, regardless of how each did against common opponents, Floyd beats the living daylights out of Pac if they were to meet today.
But to elaborate a bit on hatton, a fighter can loose there prime instantly at any time and i never saw the old hatton after the floyd fight.
He changed trainers, taking coke behind the scenes..he wasnt the same.
I think we can all agree floyd beat these common fighters at a better time and better weight.
Floyd came of a 2YEAR retirement to fight the ring top dog marquez and played with..played with him!
Manny cant deal with fighters like marquez, morales, bradley..thats his achillis heel.
Floyd had a tough first one with castillo and considering he had a torn rotater on his left shoulder its amazing he still pulled out the win!
Correct. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by FensterYou can make excuses for any losing fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
The Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.
The Oscar that lost to Pac was a weight-drained, over-the-hill Oscar... looking for one more under-sized, famous scalp so he could ride off triumphantly into the sunset. It backfired in his face. The Oscar that lost to Floyd was much younger, closer to prime, and not weight-drained, fighting at 154.
The Mosley that fought Floyd was just coming off a crushing win over Margacheato, as mentioned by imp. His fight with Pac was later and toward the end of his career.
Hatton I won't include, because Hatton was in tip-top condition and said he was fighting for the world's p4p. Besides, he fought Floyd at 147, a weight he was NEVER comfortable at. He fought Pac at 140. Pac definitely put more of an exclamation point on his KTFO victory over Hatton than Floyd did.
Still, regardless of how each did against common opponents, Floyd beats the living daylights out of Pac if they were to meet today.
Floyd may well beat Pac. But judging them on common opponents then Pac is his superior. Fact.
Pac KO'd Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and has beaten Mosley and Marquez knocking them both down.
Floyd won on points against Cotto, Mosley, Oscar, Marquez and KO'd Hatton eight rounds after Pac did it.
It's no comparison. Pac over Floyd.
Trevor Berbick beat Ali, who had beaten George Foreman.
Common opponents.
Berbick over Foreman?
If the argument is who did better against common opponents... Pac did.
If the argument is who would win between Pac and Floyd... Floyd would.
Also, it's probably a bit more realistic when doing a common opponent comparison to examine the whens, hows, and other factors involved.
Who would win between Pac and Floyd is just a guess.
Considering he has two wins against Marquez, two KO victories over Morales and all popular polls show that the majority believed he was "robbed" against Bradley, he hasn't done bad against fighters he can't deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by impI agree tito.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
The Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.
The Oscar that lost to Pac was a weight-drained, over-the-hill Oscar... looking for one more under-sized, famous scalp so he could ride off triumphantly into the sunset. It backfired in his face. The Oscar that lost to Floyd was much younger, closer to prime, and not weight-drained, fighting at 154.
The Mosley that fought Floyd was just coming off a crushing win over Margacheato, as mentioned by imp. His fight with Pac was later and toward the end of his career.
Hatton I won't include, because Hatton was in tip-top condition and said he was fighting for the world's p4p. Besides, he fought Floyd at 147, a weight he was NEVER comfortable at. He fought Pac at 140. Pac definitely put more of an exclamation point on his KTFO victory over Hatton than Floyd did.
Still, regardless of how each did against common opponents, Floyd beats the living daylights out of Pac if they were to meet today.
But to elaborate a bit on hatton, a fighter can loose there prime instantly at any time and i never saw the old hatton after the floyd fight.
He changed trainers, taking coke behind the scenes..he wasnt the same.
I think we can all agree floyd beat these common fighters at a better time and better weight.
Floyd came of a 2YEAR retirement to fight the ring top dog marquez and played with..played with him!
Manny cant deal with fighters like marquez, morales, bradley..thats his achillis heel.
Floyd had a tough first one with castillo and considering he had a torn rotater on his left shoulder its amazing he still pulled out the win!
Marquez shouldn't be worried about what Mayweather would or wouldn't do to Manny.
The Marquez that will be fighting Pac on Dec 8th will be the best version ever better than the chunky form that fought Mayweather. If Pac stops Marquez this saturday night i hope there will be no excuses the same way if Marquez destroys Pac no excuses either.
Fenster,
You know what I mean. Marquez has never been a walk in the park for manny.
I know many believe manny beat bradley but manny did loose and bradley was injured.
I dont like bradleys style and i definately prefer marquez but manny has issues with these fighters with a combination of his skills possibly fading and the skill of the opponent.
Marquez is 40 years old and bradley is still undefeated.
Marquez said in that interview - "Floyd would beat Manny because Floyd doesn't like to fight, he's defensive, so Manny would have to chase him. But Manny is the harder puncher"
He didn't say Floyd was better.
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
Marquez had his biggest payday against mayweather and that was marquez biggest fight.
Lets not not discredit marquez by calling him chunky as he would have had the best preparation ever as the outcome of beating mayweather would have meant more by beating pacman at any stage.
I suppose you would have to be better than someone to beat them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Its true what marquez says..floyd is never going to want to fight, hes happy to outbox his opponents.
Marquez should know.
Marquez is a true warrior but he will never have the tools to beat floyd but perhaps the judges might favour him this time against manny and he can give it another go as that will be easy money for floyd.
As a fan, floyds inactivity is p&ssing me off.
As mentioned earlier a sergio martinez is possibly floyds biggest threat but i cant see floyd going up in weight again as its a huge disadvantage for someone who holds all the cards.
How do you define more "impressively"? Pac by the nature of his fighting style will always have more exciting wins...he is a storming fighter who looks for the knockouts. Floyd by comparision is a technician...he is just as happy winning easily on points as he would be winning in dramatic fashion. I personally enjoy watching Floyd dismantling his opponents with his brilliant technique and skills. You can also argue that Floyd fought a slightly less washed up version of Oscar and Mosley...and definitely a more rejuvenated Cotto (better prepared physically and metally after the Margo debacle). Hatton...whatever. So really i would only give Pac the edge to having fought a better Marquez. Styles make fights. And while we will never know who wins between these two until they fight...Floyd's style is all wrong for Pac.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Another Floyd will beat Manny in my opinion - boxing aside he's the bigger man, that's why Manny needed to fuck with catchweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWeight makes all the difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
Manny fought Marquez at 126, 130 and both weighing 142.
Floyd fought Marquez once at welterweight with a big size advantage. Marquez dropped back to 135 immediately following the fight.
Clearly Marquez had a big disadvantage against Floyd, so comparing Pac/Floyd where Marquez is concerned is pointless?
If he can't outbox them he'll outfight them and if they bigger and hydrated that's gonna be a lot tougher than the 'best p4p boxer' should find it.
So basically "Floyd would beat Manny because Boxing 101"? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I personally enjoy watching Floyd too. I think he's a great fighter.
However, if you want to judge him on paper with Pacquiao, unless you can argue that a knockout, knockdown or savage beatings aren't as impressive, to the majority of fans, as controlled calculated points victories, then you have to accept Pacquiao is the superior fighter based on common opponents.
I'm not saying Manny is a better fighter. I'm merely pointing out the collateral form says he's the better fighter. Fact.
Floyds and mannys style are like chalk and cheese.
Floyds style imho is more like art and is boxing skills at its greatest.
Mannys style is aggressive, quick but clumsy and can be duplicated.
If anyone had a choice, im sure you would want to leave the leave the ring with as minimal damage as possible while inflicting as much damage as possible.
Floyd does this very well. Manny doesnt.
Manny could possibly fight victor ortiz now and ko ortiz in the first round..are we not to take into the other factors such as the losses victor has incurred since floyd and the broken jaw he has received?
Floyd and manny have both beaten these common opponents in different ways.
And depending on your preference in style you have the choice in who you prefer has done the better job...
But floyd easily had the harder road..
@imp
You originally said Manny needs a 4th attempt at beating Marquez whereas Floyd would never need to rematch him. That is true. However, you have to accept that, if you judge fighters by common opponents then everyone has to be brought into the mix.
Judging Floyd/Pac through Marquez makes Floyd look far superior. Judging Floyd/Pac through Cotto makes Pac look far superior.
Does floyd or manny need to rematch cotto as it was decisive in both fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The outcome would be the same.
BUT if manny fought cotto at his WEIGHT the majority would agree it would be harder for manny.
If floyd fought cotto at 147 it would still be same thing but possibly a late ko and even easier for floyd
Surely you would agree fenster that in each weight class that floyd fights cotto the outcome is the same but easier at 147?
On the other hand its harder for manny at the opponents weight and not weight drained...and that applies to oscar as well.
I cant say manny was more superior at beating cotto because cotto was at a disavantage in weight and he admits that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
I think i addressed my thoughts on their common opponents. I think Floyd fought a better version of every fighter they each faced EXCEPT Marquez. So your point is mute IMO. I don't think Pac is a superior fighter in ANY way except maybe his style is more crowd pleasing. I actually think if you want to make a case for Pac's resume showing he is the better fighter...you could maybe make a case pointing out his performances in the lower weight classes against the likes of Morales and Barrera...not his performances with opponents he shares with Floyd.
I think using Marquez/Cotto to judge who is better between Floyd and Pac is ridiculous! Floyd brought Marquez up in weight and took full advantage. Pac brought Cotto down in weight and took full advantage. You can take it further...Floyd didn't make weight against Marquez...and Pac fought a Cotto that had not fully recovered both physically and psychologically from the Margo debacle. Floyd fought a bigger, better, healthier, more rejuvenated Cotto (not to mention much better coached). Pac has fought a prime Marquez at lower classes and a better suited Marquez at welterweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Cotto had been a pro for about 9 years going into the Pacquiao fight. He knows what the fuck he's doing. At least he should. His corner had nothing to do with him losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThe Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseCotto had been a pro for about 9 years going into the Pacquiao fight. He knows what the fuck he's doing. At least he should. His corner had nothing to do with him losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThe Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
So do away with corners and trainers. What are they good for, right? This can't be a "sometimes they're needed... sometimes they're not" type of argument. Yes... all professional boxers know how to fight and carry themselves in the ring. But supposedly, a good corner/trainer is there to add strategy... to see things the fighter himself may be overlooking. In Cotto's case, he was doing quite nicely the first few rounds against Pac, snapping his head back repeatedly with a good hard jab. He should've refrained from trading with Pac until maybe a bit later in the fight, but he didn't and got tagged.
But more importantly... the trainer prepares the fighter BEFORE the fight, with the strength, conditioning, and other drills and exercises to get the most out the fighter for the particular opponent he is facing.
Example: Cotto clearly lost against Mayweather... but he would have done a HELL of a lot more poorly with Joe "Clueless" Santiago still in his corner.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubinI think using Marquez/Cotto to judge who is better between Floyd and Pac is ridiculous! Floyd brought Marquez up in weight and took full advantage. Pac brought Cotto down in weight and took full advantage. You can take it further...Floyd didn't make weight against Marquez...and Pac fought a Cotto that had not fully recovered both physically and psychologically from the Margo debacle. Floyd fought a bigger, better, healthier, more rejuvenated Cotto (not to mention much better coached). Pac has fought a prime Marquez at lower classes and a better suited Marquez at welterweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You can make excuses for any fighter that's why I was sticking to pure fact.
You just proved my point. Cotto did have success early. So apparently the "strategy" was working very well. I never saw his corner tell Cotto to trade with Pacquiao (If they did let me know the moment they told him). Cotto decided to do that himself. Him being dropped and hurt showed it was a mistake. Whatever his corner told him or didn't tell him to do after that doesn't even matter. Cuz the fight was already lost. After that 2nd knock down it was over. Cotto went into full retreat and the fight stopped being competitive. It was just a matter of time. Cotto's corner took the blame cuz Cotto and his followers needed to blame somethingQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseCotto had been a pro for about 9 years going into the Pacquiao fight. He knows what the fuck he's doing. At least he should. His corner had nothing to do with him losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThe Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
So do away with corners and trainers. What are they good for, right? This can't be a "sometimes they're needed... sometimes they're not" type of argument. Yes... all professional boxers know how to fight and carry themselves in the ring. But supposedly, a good corner/trainer is there to add strategy... to see things the fighter himself may be overlooking. In Cotto's case, he was doing quite nicely the first few rounds against Pac, snapping his head back repeatedly with a good hard jab. He should've refrained from trading with Pac until maybe a bit later in the fight, but he didn't and got tagged.
But more importantly... the trainer prepares the fighter BEFORE the fight, with the strength, conditioning, and other drills and exercises to get the most out the fighter for the particular opponent he is facing.
Example: Cotto clearly lost against Mayweather... but he would have done a HELL of a lot more poorly with Joe "Clueless" Santiago still in his corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseYou just proved my point. Cotto did have success early. So apparently the "strategy" was working very well. I never saw his corner tell Cotto to trade with Pacquiao (If they did let me know the moment they told him). Cotto decided to do that himself. Him being dropped and hurt showed it was a mistake. Whatever his corner told him or didn't tell him to do after that doesn't even matter. Cuz the fight was already lost. After that 2nd knock down it was over. Cotto went into full retreat and the fight stopped being competitive. It was just a matter of time. Cotto's corner took the blame cuz Cotto and his followers needed to blame somethingQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseCotto had been a pro for about 9 years going into the Pacquiao fight. He knows what the fuck he's doing. At least he should. His corner had nothing to do with him losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThe Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
So do away with corners and trainers. What are they good for, right? This can't be a "sometimes they're needed... sometimes they're not" type of argument. Yes... all professional boxers know how to fight and carry themselves in the ring. But supposedly, a good corner/trainer is there to add strategy... to see things the fighter himself may be overlooking. In Cotto's case, he was doing quite nicely the first few rounds against Pac, snapping his head back repeatedly with a good hard jab. He should've refrained from trading with Pac until maybe a bit later in the fight, but he didn't and got tagged.
But more importantly... the trainer prepares the fighter BEFORE the fight, with the strength, conditioning, and other drills and exercises to get the most out the fighter for the particular opponent he is facing.
Example: Cotto clearly lost against Mayweather... but he would have done a HELL of a lot more poorly with Joe "Clueless" Santiago still in his corner.
Yeah ok whatever. We don't agree on that, but that's fine. However, you ignored perhaps the more important point... the training BEFORE the fight. It was obviously a different Cotto that went into the ring against Mayweather than against Pacquiao. He was better trained... better prepared. That's why I maintain that a Pedro Diaz-trained Cotto would've had a much better chance to defeat Pacquaio. Joe Santiago didn't have a clue as to how train Cotto for a specific fighter. He's merely a personal trainer, with very little inside knowledge about the boxing game. Pedro Diaz, on the other hand, was already a highly successful trainer from the Cuban amateur ranks, with a very good resume.
Marquez fought both of these guys and he thinks that mayweather will win.
I respect marquez for being honest and surprise surprise...i agree with him.
@imp -Quote:
Originally Posted by impDoes floyd or manny need to rematch cotto as it was decisive in both fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The outcome would be the same.
BUT if manny fought cotto at his WEIGHT the majority would agree it would be harder for manny.
If floyd fought cotto at 147 it would still be same thing but possibly a late ko and even easier for floyd
Surely you would agree fenster that in each weight class that floyd fights cotto the outcome is the same but easier at 147?
On the other hand its harder for manny at the opponents weight and not weight drained...and that applies to oscar as well.
I cant say manny was more superior at beating cotto because cotto was at a disavantage in weight and he admits that.
Cotto:
After seeing Cotto dismantled by a legitimate junior middleweight in Austin Trout, do you still maintain that Cotto is/was best at 154? Frankly, Cotto was best pre-Margarito I. He was never quite the same afterward. In terms of his weight class, Cotto was best at 140-147. He's not even a big welterweight, let alone a junior middleweight. Floyd fought Cotto after Manny knocked him out. In terms of wear and tear, Cotto had been through 2 fights with Margarito and one bad knockout by Pacquiao, prior to fighting Floyd. In my humble, Manny did better against Cotto, in a weight class that Cotto historically has been more effective.
Hatton:
Somewhat a wash, Hatton had never been stopped when Floyd fought him, but he looked outsized against Floyd, and Floyd fought him at 147, not 140, where Hatton had been best. Recall Collazo-Hatton at 147 before Floyd got to him. Arguably, Collazo beat him at 147. Manny fought him after Floyd had knocked him out at Hatton's best weight. It all depends on how much the Floyd KO took out of Hatton. Thus, it's arguably a wash.
Margarito:
Floyd never faced him. Manny demolished him.
Marquez:
Floyd wins.
That's all fine and dandy, but Pedro Diaz was in his corner last weekend, right? And can you point to specific things that Pedro Diaz has done successfully with Cotto that Cotto wasn't doing before. Frankly, Manny's speed would give any version of Cotto's problems, even a Pedro Diaz-trained version. Now, a pre-Margarito I version of Cotto at 140/147 against Manny, trained by a championship quality trainer? That's worth a discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseYou just proved my point. Cotto did have success early. So apparently the "strategy" was working very well. I never saw his corner tell Cotto to trade with Pacquiao (If they did let me know the moment they told him). Cotto decided to do that himself. Him being dropped and hurt showed it was a mistake. Whatever his corner told him or didn't tell him to do after that doesn't even matter. Cuz the fight was already lost. After that 2nd knock down it was over. Cotto went into full retreat and the fight stopped being competitive. It was just a matter of time. Cotto's corner took the blame cuz Cotto and his followers needed to blame somethingQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseCotto had been a pro for about 9 years going into the Pacquiao fight. He knows what the fuck he's doing. At least he should. His corner had nothing to do with him losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThe Cotto that fought Pacquaio had a corner that had no clue as to how to put together a fight plan for Pacquiao. The Cotto that fought Floyd had Pedro Diaz in his corner, and the very best fight plan and conditioning to try and beat Floyd. Obviously it didn't work. That Cotto would've beaten Pac, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
So do away with corners and trainers. What are they good for, right? This can't be a "sometimes they're needed... sometimes they're not" type of argument. Yes... all professional boxers know how to fight and carry themselves in the ring. But supposedly, a good corner/trainer is there to add strategy... to see things the fighter himself may be overlooking. In Cotto's case, he was doing quite nicely the first few rounds against Pac, snapping his head back repeatedly with a good hard jab. He should've refrained from trading with Pac until maybe a bit later in the fight, but he didn't and got tagged.
But more importantly... the trainer prepares the fighter BEFORE the fight, with the strength, conditioning, and other drills and exercises to get the most out the fighter for the particular opponent he is facing.
Example: Cotto clearly lost against Mayweather... but he would have done a HELL of a lot more poorly with Joe "Clueless" Santiago still in his corner.
Yeah ok whatever. We don't agree on that, but that's fine. However, you ignored perhaps the more important point... the training BEFORE the fight. It was obviously a different Cotto that went into the ring against Mayweather than against Pacquiao. He was better trained... better prepared. That's why I maintain that a Pedro Diaz-trained Cotto would've had a much better chance to defeat Pacquaio. Joe Santiago didn't have a clue as to how train Cotto for a specific fighter. He's merely a personal trainer, with very little inside knowledge about the boxing game. Pedro Diaz, on the other hand, was already a highly successful trainer from the Cuban amateur ranks, with a very good resume.
Not to mention that Floyd couldn't even make his own weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWeight makes all the difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by impI think the hatton, oscar cotto and moseley that floyd fought were at a far better stage and weight as when they fought manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterIf you want to judge them by common opponents then Manny is above Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
He beat Cotto, Hatton, Oscar and Mosley more impressively than Floyd did.
Having close fights with a great like Marquez is nothing to be ashamed about. Floyd had two close fights with Castillo, arguably losing the first in many peoples eyes.
Obviously, im going to side with floyd and dont want to hijack the thread by talking about manny and floyds opponents but you wisely brought them up.
Floyd:-
Hatton-undefeated.(was never the same after floyd)
Oscar-his weight, his ring, his gloves, his rules.
Mosely:- after beating margacheato, no one wanted to fight him, even offered to do a catchweight with manny.
Cotto:- at his weight and not after a loss.
Weight makes all the difference.
Manny is great fighter but those common opponents were all at a disadvantage when fighting manny.
Manny fought Marquez at 126, 130 and both weighing 142.
Floyd fought Marquez once at welterweight with a big size advantage. Marquez dropped back to 135 immediately following the fight.
Clearly Marquez had a big disadvantage against Floyd, so comparing Pac/Floyd where Marquez is concerned is pointless?
I'm starting to think the same way, but don't forget there's a promoter involved by the name of Arum.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
I'm thinking everyone is right, he's a petty little turd and crooked like a grape vine. He's smart but twisted. Too many questionable and close decisions happen when he's involved.