Joe Calzaghe: Andre Ward is good but beatable

[LobowolfXXX]

The older, heavier, latter day Hopkins is good. The Hopkins that went more than a decade without losing a fight and defending the 160-pound title a bazillion times was great.

[FinitoElDinamita]

The older, heavier, latter day Hopkins is good. The Hopkins that went more than a decade without losing a fight and defending the 160-pound title a bazillion times was great.

hopkins defended his mw titles against too many part time construction workers until he caught a former ww in Tito.

Based on your theory, Chris John is great too.

[Gandalf]

Who did Hopkins beat at MW to prove his greatness?

His biggest wins were small men moving up. DLH who had really already lost to Sturm and Trinidad who spent most of his career at WW.

Then after Hopkins moves up you have loads more men being called up way beyond their optimum fighting weights.

Hopkins wins over Trinidad and Tarver were significant, but no more significant than Calzaghe beating Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins himself.

[Gandalf]

People always downplay Lacy and to a degree that is correct, but he injured his shoulder and was never the same. Everyone stateside was picking Lacy. I remember it as I was new to the forum and couldn't fathom what they were all going on about.

Then there was the huge clamour to fight Kessler and Calzaghe did so. It was a HUGE fight, but again people are dissing Kessler saying he wasn't very good.

They were huge wins and Calzaghe was predicted to lose by many and then when he does fight Hopkins, he did it with relative ease after a shaky start and then everyone says 'Oh but Hopkins was old'. Well, has he continued to win his big fights? Jones Jr certainly hasn't. Is he old or not? Seemingly not, but too old for Calzaghe and yet still great to be winning titles afterwards.

People just don't like Calzaghe and don't want to give him his dues.

[LobowolfXXX]

Who did Hopkins beat at MW to prove his greatness?

His biggest wins were small men moving up. DLH who had really already lost to Sturm and Trinidad who spent most of his career at WW.

Then after Hopkins moves up you have loads more men being called up way beyond their optimum fighting weights.

Hopkins wins over Trinidad and Tarver were significant, but no more significant than Calzaghe beating Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins himself.

Hopkins's win over Trinidad was substantially more significant than Calzaghe's wins over Lacy and Kessler. Trinidad was an undefeated, top P4P fighter, and Hopkins destroyed him. In terms of significance of the opposition, of the three wins you listed, only Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is comparable.

At middleweight, most of Hopkins's defense were against top-10 fighters in the weight class. They weren't "greats," but on balance, they were probably more credible than most of the people Calzaghe defended against.

[LobowolfXXX]

I only started talking about Hopkins's record to challenge the claim that he wasn't great. I never took the position that Calzaghe wasn't great; clearly he was. If I recall correctly, the only things I said "against" Calzaghe was that he wouldn't destroy Ward (nor would Ward destroy him), and that it's simply not true that he cleaned out the 168-pound division.

[Gandalf]

I only started talking about Hopkins's record to challenge the claim that he wasn't great. I never took the position that Calzaghe wasn't great; clearly he was. If I recall correctly, the only things I said "against" Calzaghe was that he wouldn't destroy Ward (nor would Ward destroy him), and that it's simply not true that he cleaned out the 168-pound division.

He unified the division. As for destroying Ward that really is just down to personal opinion

[Gandalf]

Who did Hopkins beat at MW to prove his greatness?

His biggest wins were small men moving up. DLH who had really already lost to Sturm and Trinidad who spent most of his career at WW.

Then after Hopkins moves up you have loads more men being called up way beyond their optimum fighting weights.

Hopkins wins over Trinidad and Tarver were significant, but no more significant than Calzaghe beating Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins himself.

Hopkins's win over Trinidad was substantially more significant than Calzaghe's wins over Lacy and Kessler. Trinidad was an undefeated, top P4P fighter, and Hopkins destroyed him. In terms of significance of the opposition, of the three wins you listed, only Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is comparable.

At middleweight, most of Hopkins's defense were against top-10 fighters in the weight class. They weren't "greats," but on balance, they were probably more credible than most of the people Calzaghe defended against.

They were big wins and huge fights in the division. P4P is mythical anyway and saying one is bigger than the other is entirely subjective. Lacy was undefeated and so was Kessler. They were huge fights and extremely significant. Calzaghe unified his division and then went up and beat 'the man' fair and square.

It is wrong to discredit Kessler and say that he is not comparable to Hopkins. He was undefeated and coming in off of a string of very decent performances. Many tipped him to beat Calzaghe.

Both fighters have what you would call decent resumes. Hopkins added a few more late on with calculated CW's, but calculated up to the age of 36 they are both relatively even.

I credit Calzaghe for what he did and also acknowledge what Hopkins has done, but some are unable to give Calzaghe any credit and call him a 'ducker'. He proved himself, you can't say the same for someone like Ottke.

[LobowolfXXX]

Who did Hopkins beat at MW to prove his greatness?

His biggest wins were small men moving up. DLH who had really already lost to Sturm and Trinidad who spent most of his career at WW.

Then after Hopkins moves up you have loads more men being called up way beyond their optimum fighting weights.

Hopkins wins over Trinidad and Tarver were significant, but no more significant than Calzaghe beating Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins himself.

Hopkins's win over Trinidad was substantially more significant than Calzaghe's wins over Lacy and Kessler. Trinidad was an undefeated, top P4P fighter, and Hopkins destroyed him. In terms of significance of the opposition, of the three wins you listed, only Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is comparable.

At middleweight, most of Hopkins's defense were against top-10 fighters in the weight class. They weren't "greats," but on balance, they were probably more credible than most of the people Calzaghe defended against.

They were big wins and huge fights in the division. P4P is mythical anyway and saying one is bigger than the other is entirely subjective. Lacy was undefeated and so was Kessler. They were huge fights and extremely significant. Calzaghe unified his division and then went up and beat 'the man' fair and square.

It is wrong to discredit Kessler and say that he is not comparable to Hopkins. He was undefeated and coming in off of a string of very decent performances. Many tipped him to beat Calzaghe.

Both fighters have what you would call decent resumes. Hopkins added a few more late on with calculated CW's, but calculated up to the age of 36 they are both relatively even.

I credit Calzaghe for what he did and also acknowledge what Hopkins has done, but some are unable to give Calzaghe any credit and call him a 'ducker'. He proved himself, you can't say the same for someone like Ottke.

ok, seriously, it's discrediting Kessler to say that he's not comparable to Hopkins? Kessler was "undefeated and coming in off of a string of very decent performances," and Hopkins ruled a division for more than a decade, with TWENTY successful defenses, most of which were against top-10 opponents, and many of which were against top-5 guys. It's BY FAR a discredit to Hopkins to say that Kessler is comparable.

[Gandalf]

True, Hopkins is the bigger and more established name than Kessler, but what I am saying is that Kessler was a big win too and was a proven SMW champion. It was extremely significant. Just as Hopkins was able to unify against Trinidad, Calzaghe did the same with Kessler. And of course Calzaghe beat Hopkins anyway.

[LobowolfXXX]

That's a little harsh...he defeated several top-10s, and destroyed Glen Johnson and Trinidad when they were undefeated. He also took 4 rounds off of a prime Roy Jones, and did MUCH better against him than Toney did in a fight that was more hyped and totally one-sided. He was on the P4P list for a number of years, and deservedly in the top 3 for a few of them.

[Gandalf]

That's a little harsh...he defeated several top-10s, and destroyed Glen Johnson and Trinidad when they were undefeated. He also took 4 rounds off of a prime Roy Jones, and did MUCH better against him than Toney did in a fight that was more hyped and totally one-sided. He was on the P4P list for a number of years, and deservedly in the top 3 for a few of them.

It is harsh, absolutely. Hopkins has a credible record, but so does Joe Calzaghe. It is hypocrisy to criticize one and give the other a free pass. They both have credible opposition AND their share of filler.