From how many fights should Ali have been DQ'ed for holding?

[beenKOed]

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

Jesus H. Christ! I hope you don't actually think Ali is bigger than boxing.
Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.
Yes, this forum would be here if Ali never existed, the Internet is bigger than Ali and boxing. IMO

I don't believe that. I did say I was just curious.

Some people would say that without Ali boxing would be dead.

I personally don't know. I believe it would still be here, but wed be missing a golden era.

It's just my opinion, take it or leave it. If you spend more than 10 minutes thinking about it you are wasting your time.
Make up you own mind, believe what makes sense to you just like we all do.
I don't believe Ali was greatest, in or out of the ring.
When Ali beat Foreman he went up a few levels in my mind.

[Master]

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

To be fair, Louis never did any real "fighting" and was never expected to. He did boxing exhibitions and talked to the troops to boost morale. There are tons of celebrities who went over to Iraq to do the same thing, and we don't say that they were over there fighting for their country.

With Muhammad Ali, he was going to be handed a rifle and dropped in a jungle to kill or be killed.

Yes i agree with you totally he was a coward for not answering the call up.

So you would go to war for a cause you do not believe in? That is not being a coward that is courageous. He gave up his title and millions of dollars for a cause he believed in. He was proved right.

Why is it that the people who say that they hate the stuff surrounding Ali always mention it the most? Ali beats Joe Louis too fast, quick and slick.

[Dark Lord Al]

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

To be fair, Louis never did any real "fighting" and was never expected to. He did boxing exhibitions and talked to the troops to boost morale. There are tons of celebrities who went over to Iraq to do the same thing, and we don't say that they were over there fighting for their country.

With Muhammad Ali, he was going to be handed a rifle and dropped in a jungle to kill or be killed.

Yes i agree with you totally he was a coward for not answering the call up.

So you would go to war for a cause you do not believe in? That is not being a coward that is courageous. He gave up his title and millions of dollars for a cause he believed in. He was proved right.

Why is it that the people who say that they hate the stuff surrounding Ali always mention it the most? Ali beats Joe Louis too fast, quick and slick.

You think all the people before him who went to Nam wanted to ? i think not , but they did their duty without question , all those who didnt, got rightly sent to prison.
As for him beating Joe , i dont remember anyone in this thread saying anything other than some thought Joe was the greatest ever, due to his resume in his era.
For me Clay was a coward who hid behind a religion he had adopted.
He was happy to be American when he was taking the riches , but not when called apon to serve them , what a fucking hypocrite.

[El Kabong]

The "Nation" of Islam was pretty much the black mafia....they threatened fighters, managers, and even Ali especially right around the time Malcom X was falling out with them. They weren't & aren't "nice" people.

Ali was who he was, people either love him or hate him. I think he's one of the most overrated fighters in the history of the sport and his record shows he had many close battles and lost/should have lost many times. People like to assume in the hypothetical matchups that Ali would beat anyone and everyone when he had so much trouble with a 1 dimensional fighter like Joe Frazier (great but 1 dimensional), he got dropped hard by Henry Cooper, he struggled vs Ron Lyle & Ken Norton.

Ali IS an icon of boxing probably most for his celebrity outside the ring as his performances in it and that's just the God's honest truth.

[Beanflicker]

The "Nation" of Islam was pretty much the black mafia...

They were and are basically the black equivilent of the KKK or a neo-nazi group. Bunch of racist thugs who aren't even acknowledged by real Muslims.

[El Kabong]

The "Nation" of Islam was pretty much the black mafia...

They were and are basically the black equivilent of the KKK or a neo-nazi group. Bunch of racist thugs who aren't even acknowledged by real Muslims.

.....well of course, but they also sent Earnie Terrell's manager to the looney bin after threatening him & are thought to have paid off Sonny Liston to take a dive in the rematch and other Mafia-esque tactics...point is they weren't good people...still aren't

[Master]

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

To be fair, Louis never did any real "fighting" and was never expected to. He did boxing exhibitions and talked to the troops to boost morale. There are tons of celebrities who went over to Iraq to do the same thing, and we don't say that they were over there fighting for their country.

With Muhammad Ali, he was going to be handed a rifle and dropped in a jungle to kill or be killed.

Yes i agree with you totally he was a coward for not answering the call up.

So you would go to war for a cause you do not believe in? That is not being a coward that is courageous. He gave up his title and millions of dollars for a cause he believed in. He was proved right.

Why is it that the people who say that they hate the stuff surrounding Ali always mention it the most? Ali beats Joe Louis too fast, quick and slick.

You think all the people before him who went to Nam wanted to ? i think not , but they did their duty without question , all those who didnt, got rightly sent to prison.
As for him beating Joe , i dont remember anyone in this thread saying anything other than some thought Joe was the greatest ever, due to his resume in his era.
For me Clay was a coward who hid behind a religion he had adopted.
He was happy to be American when he was taking the riches , but not when called apon to serve them , what a fucking hypocrite.

He was broke whilst in exile and lost his best years, he is no coward. He took the harder option because no way were the US going to put him on the front line and risk the embarrassment of him being killed. He could have joined and taken the easy option and come back with the title and millions but he turned that all down.

[brocktonblockbust]

It is a fact that the Nation of islam loosened the ropes in Zaire. Archie Moore swore he saw 2 guys with skullcaps about 3 hours before the fight doing stuff to the ropes. If you watch the fight again and take a good look at the ropes, they are unbelievable elastic, I never seen anything liek it. If Ali wouldnt a been able to lean back so far on those rubber bands, Foreman woulda reached him with better leverage. Foreman's shots were thrown whilst he was leaning far forwards trying to reach the rope-laying Ali---he was on the very tips of his toes and balls of his feet whilst throwing at Ali---then Ali would illegally grab him about the neck and push his head down hoping for fellatio. No points deducted.

No rematch either. ........ 3 fights with Norton and Frazier but---

ONLY ONE WITH BIG GEORGE. No rope-a-dope second time round my friends.

[Dark Lord Al]

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

To be fair, Louis never did any real "fighting" and was never expected to. He did boxing exhibitions and talked to the troops to boost morale. There are tons of celebrities who went over to Iraq to do the same thing, and we don't say that they were over there fighting for their country.

With Muhammad Ali, he was going to be handed a rifle and dropped in a jungle to kill or be killed.

Yes i agree with you totally he was a coward for not answering the call up.

So you would go to war for a cause you do not believe in? That is not being a coward that is courageous. He gave up his title and millions of dollars for a cause he believed in. He was proved right.

Why is it that the people who say that they hate the stuff surrounding Ali always mention it the most? Ali beats Joe Louis too fast, quick and slick.

You think all the people before him who went to Nam wanted to ? i think not , but they did their duty without question , all those who didnt, got rightly sent to prison.
As for him beating Joe , i dont remember anyone in this thread saying anything other than some thought Joe was the greatest ever, due to his resume in his era.
For me Clay was a coward who hid behind a religion he had adopted.
He was happy to be American when he was taking the riches , but not when called apon to serve them , what a fucking hypocrite.

He was broke whilst in exile and lost his best years, he is no coward. He took the harder option because no way were the US going to put him on the front line and risk the embarrassment of him being killed. He could have joined and taken the easy option and come back with the title and millions but he turned that all down.

Dont give me what happen while in jail crap ,if you are a citizen and called up you go fight or whatever you are told to do.
CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR = COWARD.

THE END.

[chinchekked]

I find it odd that of all things that Ali is called a coward for not fighting in the war. I don't know his true motives but his actions alone didn't make him a coward. When you look at the state of the US in that time period when men of color were still being legitimately discriminated against and abuse for the color of their skin I can't blame Ali one bit. Sure you can say that he was making money in the US and so forth but he was still not treated as an equal citizen and if he had courage to say I'm not fighting for a country that regarded his family members and African American friends as 2nd class citizens well fair play to him. I'm not saying he was right or wrong but looking at things the context of that time period calling him a coward is a bit extreme IMO

[Master]

I find it odd that of all things that Ali is called a coward for not fighting in the war. I don't know his true motives but his actions alone didn't make him a coward. When you look at the state of the US in that time period when men of color were still being legitimately discriminated against and abuse for the color of their skin I can't blame Ali one bit. Sure you can say that he was making money in the US and so forth but he was still not treated as an equal citizen and if he had courage to say I'm not fighting for a country that regarded his family members and African American friends as 2nd class citizens well fair play to him. I'm not saying he was right or wrong but looking at things the context of that time period calling him a coward is a bit extreme IMO

The End.

[Gandalf]

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

To be fair, Louis never did any real "fighting" and was never expected to. He did boxing exhibitions and talked to the troops to boost morale. There are tons of celebrities who went over to Iraq to do the same thing, and we don't say that they were over there fighting for their country.

With Muhammad Ali, he was going to be handed a rifle and dropped in a jungle to kill or be killed.

Yes i agree with you totally he was a coward for not answering the call up.

So you would go to war for a cause you do not believe in? That is not being a coward that is courageous. He gave up his title and millions of dollars for a cause he believed in. He was proved right.

Why is it that the people who say that they hate the stuff surrounding Ali always mention it the most? Ali beats Joe Louis too fast, quick and slick.

You think all the people before him who went to Nam wanted to ? i think not , but they did their duty without question , all those who didnt, got rightly sent to prison.
As for him beating Joe , i dont remember anyone in this thread saying anything other than some thought Joe was the greatest ever, due to his resume in his era.
For me Clay was a coward who hid behind a religion he had adopted.
He was happy to be American when he was taking the riches , but not when called apon to serve them , what a fucking hypocrite.

He was broke whilst in exile and lost his best years, he is no coward. He took the harder option because no way were the US going to put him on the front line and risk the embarrassment of him being killed. He could have joined and taken the easy option and come back with the title and millions but he turned that all down.

Dont give me what happen while in jail crap ,if you are a citizen and called up you go fight or whatever you are told to do.
CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR = COWARD.

THE END.

Utter bollocks.

You get your head blown off for a fabricated cause and see who has the last laugh. You would likely be swallowing your own intestines in a nation that has nothing to do with you.

I might not like Ali for his religious nonsense, but his decision was moral and just. He didn't have to make that choice, but he did. And good on him. Cowards don't resist the calling of their empire building overlords, Ali did. It was also a completely racist empire builder and thus you can see where he was coming from. White men in ivory towers enslaving at home and enslaving abroad.

The man was very brave on that basis.

[Dark Lord Al]

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

To be fair, Louis never did any real "fighting" and was never expected to. He did boxing exhibitions and talked to the troops to boost morale. There are tons of celebrities who went over to Iraq to do the same thing, and we don't say that they were over there fighting for their country.

With Muhammad Ali, he was going to be handed a rifle and dropped in a jungle to kill or be killed.

Yes i agree with you totally he was a coward for not answering the call up.

So you would go to war for a cause you do not believe in? That is not being a coward that is courageous. He gave up his title and millions of dollars for a cause he believed in. He was proved right.

Why is it that the people who say that they hate the stuff surrounding Ali always mention it the most? Ali beats Joe Louis too fast, quick and slick.

You think all the people before him who went to Nam wanted to ? i think not , but they did their duty without question , all those who didnt, got rightly sent to prison.
As for him beating Joe , i dont remember anyone in this thread saying anything other than some thought Joe was the greatest ever, due to his resume in his era.
For me Clay was a coward who hid behind a religion he had adopted.
He was happy to be American when he was taking the riches , but not when called apon to serve them , what a fucking hypocrite.

He was broke whilst in exile and lost his best years, he is no coward. He took the harder option because no way were the US going to put him on the front line and risk the embarrassment of him being killed. He could have joined and taken the easy option and come back with the title and millions but he turned that all down.

Dont give me what happen while in jail crap ,if you are a citizen and called up you go fight or whatever you are told to do.
CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR = COWARD.

THE END.

Utter bollocks.

You get your head blown off for a fabricated cause and see who has the last laugh. You would likely be swallowing your own intestines in a nation that has nothing to do with you.

I might not like Ali for his religious nonsense, but his decision was moral and just. He didn't have to make that choice, but he did. And good on him. Cowards don't resist the calling of their empire building overlords, Ali did. It was also a completely racist empire builder and thus you can see where he was coming from. White men in ivory towers enslaving at home and enslaving abroad.

The man was very brave on that basis.

You know Miles your right, Clay was a real hero to all Americans.

[Gandalf]

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

To be fair, Louis never did any real "fighting" and was never expected to. He did boxing exhibitions and talked to the troops to boost morale. There are tons of celebrities who went over to Iraq to do the same thing, and we don't say that they were over there fighting for their country.

With Muhammad Ali, he was going to be handed a rifle and dropped in a jungle to kill or be killed.

Yes i agree with you totally he was a coward for not answering the call up.

So you would go to war for a cause you do not believe in? That is not being a coward that is courageous. He gave up his title and millions of dollars for a cause he believed in. He was proved right.

Why is it that the people who say that they hate the stuff surrounding Ali always mention it the most? Ali beats Joe Louis too fast, quick and slick.

You think all the people before him who went to Nam wanted to ? i think not , but they did their duty without question , all those who didnt, got rightly sent to prison.
As for him beating Joe , i dont remember anyone in this thread saying anything other than some thought Joe was the greatest ever, due to his resume in his era.
For me Clay was a coward who hid behind a religion he had adopted.
He was happy to be American when he was taking the riches , but not when called apon to serve them , what a fucking hypocrite.

He was broke whilst in exile and lost his best years, he is no coward. He took the harder option because no way were the US going to put him on the front line and risk the embarrassment of him being killed. He could have joined and taken the easy option and come back with the title and millions but he turned that all down.

Dont give me what happen while in jail crap ,if you are a citizen and called up you go fight or whatever you are told to do.
CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR = COWARD.

THE END.

Utter bollocks.

You get your head blown off for a fabricated cause and see who has the last laugh. You would likely be swallowing your own intestines in a nation that has nothing to do with you.

I might not like Ali for his religious nonsense, but his decision was moral and just. He didn't have to make that choice, but he did. And good on him. Cowards don't resist the calling of their empire building overlords, Ali did. It was also a completely racist empire builder and thus you can see where he was coming from. White men in ivory towers enslaving at home and enslaving abroad.

The man was very brave on that basis.

You know Miles your right, Clay was a real hero to all Americans.

Don't be so retarded. You lost your argument, move on and chew grass.

[Dark Lord Al]

The Great Joe Louis was HW champion and fought for his country , so he was greater in and out of the ring. A real hero a man for all ages .

To be fair, Louis never did any real "fighting" and was never expected to. He did boxing exhibitions and talked to the troops to boost morale. There are tons of celebrities who went over to Iraq to do the same thing, and we don't say that they were over there fighting for their country.

With Muhammad Ali, he was going to be handed a rifle and dropped in a jungle to kill or be killed.

Yes i agree with you totally he was a coward for not answering the call up.

So you would go to war for a cause you do not believe in? That is not being a coward that is courageous. He gave up his title and millions of dollars for a cause he believed in. He was proved right.

Why is it that the people who say that they hate the stuff surrounding Ali always mention it the most? Ali beats Joe Louis too fast, quick and slick.

You think all the people before him who went to Nam wanted to ? i think not , but they did their duty without question , all those who didnt, got rightly sent to prison.
As for him beating Joe , i dont remember anyone in this thread saying anything other than some thought Joe was the greatest ever, due to his resume in his era.
For me Clay was a coward who hid behind a religion he had adopted.
He was happy to be American when he was taking the riches , but not when called apon to serve them , what a fucking hypocrite.

He was broke whilst in exile and lost his best years, he is no coward. He took the harder option because no way were the US going to put him on the front line and risk the embarrassment of him being killed. He could have joined and taken the easy option and come back with the title and millions but he turned that all down.

Dont give me what happen while in jail crap ,if you are a citizen and called up you go fight or whatever you are told to do.
CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR = COWARD.

THE END.

Utter bollocks.

You get your head blown off for a fabricated cause and see who has the last laugh. You would likely be swallowing your own intestines in a nation that has nothing to do with you.

I might not like Ali for his religious nonsense, but his decision was moral and just. He didn't have to make that choice, but he did. And good on him. Cowards don't resist the calling of their empire building overlords, Ali did. It was also a completely racist empire builder and thus you can see where he was coming from. White men in ivory towers enslaving at home and enslaving abroad.

The man was very brave on that basis.

You know Miles your right, Clay was a real hero to all Americans.

Don't be so retarded. You lost your argument, move on and chew grass.

it wasnt an argument on my part just my opinion.