Simulated Pavlik Calzaghe fight. here is the result.

[Fenster]

Between Pavlik and Calzaghe's list of opponents, I honestly don't see much of a difference.

Both men fought somewhat easy opposition up until just recently. Calzaghe's resume didn't start looking solid until he fought Lacy while Pavlik's started looking good once he fought Zertuche.

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

[Bomp]

Between Pavlik and Calzaghe's list of opponents, I honestly don't see much of a difference.

Both men fought somewhat easy opposition up until just recently. Calzaghe's resume didn't start looking solid until he fought Lacy while Pavlik's started looking good once he fought Zertuche.

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

Good point. Calzaghe's fought over a dozen Zertuche type oppoenents plus the guys you mentioned before going on to Lacy-Kessler-Hopkins. All the guys you mentoined plus these 3 (that's 8 ) achieved a hell of a lot more in their careers than Miranda, that leaves just Taylor as a class opponent, so no, Pavlik hasn't got the same resume as Joe, as of now anyway.

by the way to the Pavlik fans, not dissing him, just defending Joe, Kelly's a very good fighter who may prove to be a great one day if he keeps progressing, his fights are also great to watch. If they fought now I'd actually favour Pavlik slightly, but only because Joe has been slipping gradually for a good few years but it's only really catching up with him now, +IMO he's gonna struggle with Jones.

[ssss]

Between Pavlik and Calzaghe's list of opponents, I honestly don't see much of a difference.

Both men fought somewhat easy opposition up until just recently. Calzaghe's resume didn't start looking solid until he fought Lacy while Pavlik's started looking good once he fought Zertuche.

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

[Fenster]

Between Pavlik and Calzaghe's list of opponents, I honestly don't see much of a difference.

Both men fought somewhat easy opposition up until just recently. Calzaghe's resume didn't start looking solid until he fought Lacy while Pavlik's started looking good once he fought Zertuche.

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

That's not the debate Ice

You wanna take up the challenge?

Go on - list Pavliks best wins before Zertuche

[ssss]

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

That's not the debate Ice

You wanna take up the challenge?

Go on - list Pavliks best wins before Zertuche

Kelly Pavlik was the same age as Joe Calzaghe when he won his first World title i think its unfair to compare there opposition because Kelly Pavlik has not yet had experience or as many fighters at championship level........

But you could arguably say Kelly Pavlik's two wins over Jermain Taylor is better than any wins on Joe Calzaghe record because Jermain Taylor had beaten Bernard Hopkins twice who is considered Joe Calzaghe's best win and Jermain Taylor was in his prime when he fought Kelly Pavlik........

As for Kelly Pavlik's best wins before Jose Luis Zertuche well lets start way back with Grady Brewer who won the 2nd series of the Contender then we have Bronco McKart who is a good skilled experience fighter who was past his best but still a good test..........

Then lastly we have Fulgencio Zuniga who is a good puncher and a very durable opponent who had beat Jose Luis Zertuche and he has recently moved up to Super Middleweight and had a good win over an undefeated opponent.

[Fenster]

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

That's not the debate Ice

You wanna take up the challenge?

Go on - list Pavliks best wins before Zertuche

Kelly Pavlik was the same age as Joe Calzaghe when he won his first World title i think its unfair to compare there opposition because Kelly Pavlik has not yet had experience or as many fighters at championship level

But you could arguably say Kelly Pavlik's two wins over Jermain Taylor is better than any wins on Joe Calzaghe record because Jermain Taylor had beaten Bernard Hopkins twice who is considered Joe Calzaghe's best win and Jermain Taylor was in his prime when he fought Kelly Pavlik........

As for Kelly Pavlik's best wins before Jose Luis Zertuche well lets start way back with Grady Brewer who won the 2nd series of the Contender then we have Bronco McKart who is a good skilled experience fighter who was past his best but still a good test..........

Then lastly we have Fulgencio Zuniga who is a good puncher and a very durable opponent who had beat Jose Luis Zertuche and he has recently moved up to Super Middleweight and had a good win over an undefeated opponent.

The part i've crossed out is irrelevant (obviously).

So you believe journeyman Grady Brewer (), ten years past his best lightmiddle Bronco McKart and Lightmiddle Daniel Santos victim Fulgencio Zuniga BEATS, or compares with, Calzaghe's comp pre lacy?

[ssss]

That's not the debate Ice

You wanna take up the challenge?

Go on - list Pavliks best wins before Zertuche

Kelly Pavlik was the same age as Joe Calzaghe when he won his first World title i think its unfair to compare there opposition because Kelly Pavlik has not yet had experience or as many fighters at championship level

But you could arguably say Kelly Pavlik's two wins over Jermain Taylor is better than any wins on Joe Calzaghe record because Jermain Taylor had beaten Bernard Hopkins twice who is considered Joe Calzaghe's best win and Jermain Taylor was in his prime when he fought Kelly Pavlik........

As for Kelly Pavlik's best wins before Jose Luis Zertuche well lets start way back with Grady Brewer who won the 2nd series of the Contender then we have Bronco McKart who is a good skilled experience fighter who was past his best but still a good test..........

Then lastly we have Fulgencio Zuniga who is a good puncher and a very durable opponent who had beat Jose Luis Zertuche and he has recently moved up to Super Middleweight and had a good win over an undefeated opponent.

The part i've crossed out is irrelevant (obviously).

So you believe journeyman Grady Brewer (), ten years past his best lightmiddle Bronco McKart and Lightmiddle Daniel Santos victim Fulgencio Zuniga BEATS, or compares with, Calzaghe's comp pre lacy?

I never said they compare with Joe Calzaghe's opposition what i said is that Kelly Pavlik's wins over Jermain Taylor is probably better than any single win on Joe Calzaghe's resume.........

Its unfair to compare them at the moment because Kelly Pavlik is a new comer and has only recently won world title where as Joe Calzaghe has been champion for 11 years its just a silly comparison.......

But i will bet you this that when Kelly Pavlik finishes his career i think he will have better overall wins than Joe Calzaghe but we will have to wait and see if Kelly Pavlik can handle the big boys at the higher weight classes...........

[Fenster]

Kelly Pavlik was the same age as Joe Calzaghe when he won his first World title i think its unfair to compare there opposition because Kelly Pavlik has not yet had experience or as many fighters at championship level

But you could arguably say Kelly Pavlik's two wins over Jermain Taylor is better than any wins on Joe Calzaghe record because Jermain Taylor had beaten Bernard Hopkins twice who is considered Joe Calzaghe's best win and Jermain Taylor was in his prime when he fought Kelly Pavlik........

As for Kelly Pavlik's best wins before Jose Luis Zertuche well lets start way back with Grady Brewer who won the 2nd series of the Contender then we have Bronco McKart who is a good skilled experience fighter who was past his best but still a good test..........

Then lastly we have Fulgencio Zuniga who is a good puncher and a very durable opponent who had beat Jose Luis Zertuche and he has recently moved up to Super Middleweight and had a good win over an undefeated opponent.

The part i've crossed out is irrelevant (obviously).

So you believe journeyman Grady Brewer (), ten years past his best lightmiddle Bronco McKart and Lightmiddle Daniel Santos victim Fulgencio Zuniga BEATS, or compares with, Calzaghe's comp pre lacy?

I never said they compare with Joe Calzaghe's opposition what i said is that Kelly Pavlik's wins over Jermain Taylor is probably better than any single win on Joe Calzaghe's resume.........

Its unfair to compare them at the moment because Kelly Pavlik is a new comer and has only recently won world title where as Joe Calzaghe has been champion for 11 years its just a silly comparison.......

But i will bet you this that when Kelly Pavlik finishes his career i think he will have better overall wins than Joe Calzaghe but we will have to wait and see if Kelly Pavlik can handle the big boys at the higher weight classes...........

That was the "debate" though. You must have not understood, not to worry

I agree it's unfair/silly to compare them at this stage.

Pavlik will QUICKLY become a chump once he's been KO'd a few times.. which in all honesty, is far more likely than him becoming a long reigning champ - like Calzaghe

[Markusdarkus]

Kelly Pavlik was the same age as Joe Calzaghe when he won his first World title i think its unfair to compare there opposition because Kelly Pavlik has not yet had experience or as many fighters at championship level

But you could arguably say Kelly Pavlik's two wins over Jermain Taylor is better than any wins on Joe Calzaghe record because Jermain Taylor had beaten Bernard Hopkins twice who is considered Joe Calzaghe's best win and Jermain Taylor was in his prime when he fought Kelly Pavlik........

As for Kelly Pavlik's best wins before Jose Luis Zertuche well lets start way back with Grady Brewer who won the 2nd series of the Contender then we have Bronco McKart who is a good skilled experience fighter who was past his best but still a good test..........

Then lastly we have Fulgencio Zuniga who is a good puncher and a very durable opponent who had beat Jose Luis Zertuche and he has recently moved up to Super Middleweight and had a good win over an undefeated opponent.

The part i've crossed out is irrelevant (obviously).

So you believe journeyman Grady Brewer (), ten years past his best lightmiddle Bronco McKart and Lightmiddle Daniel Santos victim Fulgencio Zuniga BEATS, or compares with, Calzaghe's comp pre lacy?

I never said they compare with Joe Calzaghe's opposition what i said is that Kelly Pavlik's wins over Jermain Taylor is probably better than any single win on Joe Calzaghe's resume.........

Its unfair to compare them at the moment because Kelly Pavlik is a new comer and has only recently won world title where as Joe Calzaghe has been champion for 11 years its just a silly comparison.......

But i will bet you this that when Kelly Pavlik finishes his career i think he will have better overall wins than Joe Calzaghe but we will have to wait and see if Kelly Pavlik can handle the big boys at the higher weight classes...........

Taylor could have dropped decisions against Spinks and Ouma not forgetting the gift draw with Wright. Hopkins was made for Taylor he finally met a fighter even more negative and had to force the fight Hopkins is purely a backfoot fighter.

Style wise Taylor had his number. And im not sure getting punched all over the ring in the first fight and a razor thin dec in the rematch are as good as Calzaghes best wins.

[Bomp]

Between Pavlik and Calzaghe's list of opponents, I honestly don't see much of a difference.

Both men fought somewhat easy opposition up until just recently. Calzaghe's resume didn't start looking solid until he fought Lacy while Pavlik's started looking good once he fought Zertuche.

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, if JC and Pavlik fight, if Pavlik wins will you be saying that Calzaghe was on the downslide?? especially considering those guys were a good few years younger than what Joe would be should he fight Kelly in early 2009. Also considering Kelly's next opponent and that Taylor could be argued to have slipped (rested on his laurels) after winning the title, what does that leave Kelly with??

[ssss]

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, if JC and Pavlik fight, if Pavlik wins will you be saying that Calzaghe was on the downslide?? especially considering those guys were a good few years younger than what Joe would be should he fight Kelly in early 2009. Also considering Kelly's next opponent and that Taylor could be argued to have slipped (rested on his laurels) after winning the title, what does that leave Kelly with??

If Pavlik Wins Will You Be Saying That Calzaghe Was On The Downslide

Good question i would say Joe Calzaghe is for certain at the point where he is starting to slip somewhat but its hard to tell because he had great performance against Mikkel Kessler then had bad showing against Bernard Hopkins but Bernard Hopkins makes everyone look bad.........

But i would say Kelly Pavlik didn't beat a prime Joe Calzaghe if he did indeed win.

[Markusdarkus]

Between Pavlik and Calzaghe's list of opponents, I honestly don't see much of a difference.

Both men fought somewhat easy opposition up until just recently. Calzaghe's resume didn't start looking solid until he fought Lacy while Pavlik's started looking good once he fought Zertuche.

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

How on earth were Reid and Mitchel past their best?

[ssss]

That is ridiculous. Calzaghe's competition might not have been outstanding (well wasn't) BUT you either haven't been following boxing long... or seeing as the supermiddle divison has been pretty weak, you clearly don't know the fighters.

Calzaghe's opposition before Lacy...

Eubank - WBO champ (top 5 best ever supermiddle (arguable))
Brewer - IBF champ
Reid - WBC champ
Woodhall - WBC champ
Mitchell - WBA champ

Whether or not you know who these guys are - they were all "world" champion.

Mario Veit and Omar Sheika were decent young challengers.

Now you name Pavliks best opposition before Zertuche

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

How on earth were Reid and Mitchel past their best?

I think you misunderstood what i meant i didn't say they were past there prime but experts at that time did consider both fighters to be on the downslide of there career......

Because Robin Reid had looked rubbish losing to a 42 years old Thulani Malinga yes Robin Reid did go on to have some decent performances after the Joe Calzaghe fight but at the time he fought Joe Calzaghe he was considered on the downslide of his career and Byron Mitchell was also coming off a loss to Sven Ottke and the fact that he didn't fight again for another 4 years when he lost by TKO in an 8 round bout to Richard Hall proves my point.

[Markusdarkus]

All those champions you mentioned have something in common they were all on the downslide of there career's when Joe Calzaghe fought them.

How on earth were Reid and Mitchel past their best?

I think you misunderstood what i meant i didn't say they were past there prime but experts at that time did consider both fighters to be on the downslide of there career......

Because Robin Reid had looked rubbish losing to a 42 years old Thulani Malinga yes Robin Reid did go on to have some decent performances after the Joe Calzaghe fight but at the time he fought Joe Calzaghe he was considered on the downslide of his career and Byron Mitchell was also coming off a loss to Sven Ottke and the fact that he didn't fight again for another 4 years when he lost by TKO in an 8 round bout to Richard Hall proves my point.

Mitchel was coming off his career best display by beating Sven Ottke.

[ssss]

How on earth were Reid and Mitchel past their best?

I think you misunderstood what i meant i didn't say they were past there prime but experts at that time did consider both fighters to be on the downslide of there career......

Because Robin Reid had looked rubbish losing to a 42 years old Thulani Malinga yes Robin Reid did go on to have some decent performances after the Joe Calzaghe fight but at the time he fought Joe Calzaghe he was considered on the downslide of his career and Byron Mitchell was also coming off a loss to Sven Ottke and the fact that he didn't fight again for another 4 years when he lost by TKO in an 8 round bout to Richard Hall proves my point.

Mitchel was coming off his career best display by beating Sven Ottke.

No it wasn't his best performance his best performance was against Frankie Liles his fight against Sven Ottke was no robbery but for certain controversial but like i already told you earlier in this thread Sven Ottke had about 9 controversial decisions in his career against the likes of Mad Larsen and David Starie who are only decent fighters.