Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?

[Lance Uppercut]

The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him.

If you think beating the MAN to become the MAN is stupid then maybe alphabet trinkets are more up your avenue.

And I really wouldn't mind all the silly paper titles, but the fact is, that they dilute one another, make thinks way too confusing for the casual fan, and are a cancer to the sport. Anyone who cares enough about the sport, and wants to see its preservation should ignore the alphabet trinkets.

[Galaxy]

How do I contradict myself ? EVERYBODY bar 2 of those crack filled judges knew Santa Cruz won that fight. It wasn't close. So yes he was the champ according to the Ring ratings. But people know how shot he looked in his past 2 fights. The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him. Therefore Nate Campbell never went above him even though he beat Juan Diaz. The number 1 in many peoples eyes bar the Ring mag. Fukk The Ring mag.

And actually I don't consider Calzaghe a two weight world champ cuz he ain't won a WBC, WBA, WBO or IBF title at light-heavyweight. Just my opinion

The Ring didn't judge the fight just followed the official result! As I've said before the best fighter in the division is not always the champion or the title would never change hands. Just because Nate beat Juan didn't make him champion. Look at Liston he was avoided for years by Patterson & considered the best fighter in the division but he only became champion by beating the champion! Now how is that system stupid? Whats stupid is being given a paper belt & having 3 or 4 other paper belt holders all claiming to be champ... but thats just my opinion!!!

Why doesn't it ? Cuz he never beat the lineal champ Conamayor ? He beat Juan Diaz, the number 1 Undisputed world champion of the division. Therefore Nate becomes the Undisputed champ and number 1 of the division.

When did Campbell become undisputed champ? Must have missed that one! The majority of the titles Diaz collected had been stripped!

[Lance Uppercut]

Alphabet NEW FlASH

Toshiaki Nishioka (32-4-3, 19 KOs), just won the WBC interim super-bantam belt today.

So who's the Super-Bantam weight Champion now. Nishioka or Israel Vasquez? That is the alphabet system. The WBC had some type of problem with Israel Vasquez that they had to create an interim champion.

What if Vasquez is stripped of his alphabet title for taking a fourth fight with Marquez. Are you going to tell me that Toshiaki Nishioka is the division champ. That's pathetic.

[leftylee]

The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him.

If you think beating the MAN to become the MAN is stupid then maybe alphabet trinkets are more up your avenue.

And I really wouldn't mind all the silly paper titles, but the fact is, that they dilute one another, make thinks way too confusing for the casual fan, and are a cancer to the sport. Anyone who cares enough about the sport, and wants to see its preservation should ignore the alphabet trinkets.

Oh for fukk sake.

Simple terms.

Joel Casamayor was the RING champion. The man at 135 pounds in the Ring mags opinion.

Juan Diaz was the WBA, WBO, IBF champion and many bar the ring said he was the real number 1 in the division ahead of Casamayor.

Nate Campbell beats Juan Diaz and therefore becomes the Undisputed champion and many now feel he is number one bar the ring.

Joel Casamyor gets a gift over Santa Cruz and nearly gets beat by Michael Katsidis before throwing a left hook he will never throw again in his career. He looks shot in both them fights. Still gets the decisions so still in the Ring mags opinion is number 1 at 135 pounds.

Juan Manuel Marquez beats Joel Casamayor. Marqeuz becomes the Ring champion.

My view is why should Marquez now be the man at 135 pounds ? He beat Casamayor yes but Casamayor was only the number one in the Ring magazine ratings, nobody elses. Nate Campbell has fought at Lightweight numerous times and beat the recognized number 1 fighter in many peoples eyes. Therefore Nate Campbell should be number 1 in the division as he essentially beat the REAL champ, Juan Diaz.

I ain't even gonna say why Pac should be number 2 cuz I've had enough going on now. I've made my opinion heard at least.

[leftylee]

Alphabet NEW FlASH

Toshiaki Nishioka (32-4-3, 19 KOs), just won the WBC interim super-bantam belt today.

So who's the Super-Bantam weight Champion now. Nishioka or Israel Vasquez? That is the alphabet system. The WBC had some type of problem with Israel Vasquez that they had to create an interim champion.

What if Vasquez is stripped of his alphabet title for taking a fourth fight with Marquez. Are you going to tell me that Toshiaki Nishioka is the division champ. That's pathetic.

Of course it's Vazquez. For fukk sake. He's fought the better competition and is the number 1 in many people's eyes not just the Ring ratings. Jesus Christ.

[Galaxy]

The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him.

If you think beating the MAN to become the MAN is stupid then maybe alphabet trinkets are more up your avenue.

And I really wouldn't mind all the silly paper titles, but the fact is, that they dilute one another, make thinks way too confusing for the casual fan, and are a cancer to the sport. Anyone who cares enough about the sport, and wants to see its preservation should ignore the alphabet trinkets.

Oh for fukk sake.

Simple terms.

Joel Casamayor was the RING champion. The man at 135 pounds in the Ring mags opinion.

Juan Diaz was the WBA, WBO, IBF champion and many bar the ring said he was the real number 1 in the division ahead of Casamayor.

Nate Campbell beats Juan Diaz and therefore becomes the Undisputed champion and many now feel he is number one bar the ring.

Joel Casamyor gets a gift over Santa Cruz and nearly gets beat by Michael Katsidis before throwing a left hook he will never throw again in his career. He looks shot in both them fights. Still gets the decisions so still in the Ring mags opinion is number 1 at 135 pounds.

Juan Manuel Marquez beats Joel Casamayor. Marqeuz becomes the Ring champion.

My view is why should Marquez now be the man at 135 pounds ? He beat Casamayor yes but Casamayor was only the number one in the Ring magazine ratings, nobody elses. Nate Campbell has fought at Lightweight numerous times and beat the recognized number 1 fighter in many peoples eyes. Therefore Nate Campbell should be number 1 in the division as he essentially beat the REAL champ, Juan Diaz.

I ain't even gonna say why Pac should be number 2 cuz I've had enough going on now. I've made my opinion heard at least.

Diaz may have been considered the best fighter in the division but he was not the champion... theres a difference!

All bar one of those belts that Nate holds were in possession of one of the linear champs at one time all the way back to Castillo before being stripped or given up. So essentially if it wasn't for stripping they would all be in Marquez' possession!

[Fenster]

Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?

Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)

Hatton is only The Ring champion

[leftylee]

Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?

Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)

Hatton is only The Ring champion

Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.

[Fenster]

Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?

Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)

Hatton is only The Ring champion

Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.

Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man.

[antimoron]

There's no number 1 at lightweight just yet. They are all champions (belt holders) at their own right. The debate is getting nowhere and even become more confusing. Not until they unify that we all get the clear picture. JMM is numero uno so does Pac and Campbell in their own right.

[leftylee]

Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?

Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)

Hatton is only The Ring champion

Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.

Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man.

Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.

Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.

Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.

[Kev]

Galaxy, Fenster, Lance you are all missing the point entirely.

I'm not saying Marquez shouldn't be the RING champion, I've agreed with that all along. According to the RING criteria Marquez is the the champ at 130 because he beat the man. I completely agree as I have said from the start. The linear title IS important to the RING magazine.

BUT I REGARD Manny Pacquaio as the number 1 because he is the p4p best fighter on the planet (universally recognised) AND beat Marquez just 6 months ago.

I put Campbell at number 2 because he beat the BEST LIGHTWEIGHT in the divison in the 3 TIMES champ Juan Diaz.

Marquez gets the number 3 spot for beating a washed up and done Casamayor who got stripped of his belt through inactivity and should have lost it against Santa Cruz anyhow.


I'm NOT saying that these should be the ring rankings, I agree they SHOULD NOT BUT THEY ARE THE MOST ACCURATE!!!!!!!!!!


That's all I've been saying all along. That in is this particular instance the Ring Magazines insistence of following the title lineage actually gives an innacurate picture of who is really the best in the division.

I've said this from my first post. How are you all so dull to understand this?

I agree with you that the Ring rankings should be 1.Marquez, 2. Pacquiao, 3. Campbell BUT I disagree that they are the most accurate rankings.

From the sounds of it you (galaxy and Fenster at least) agree with me on this so why are you still arguing the point?

The RING method of ranking fighters is only one way to rank them. It is not definitive, and it is not sacrosanct.

Manny Pacquaio IS the number 1 fighter in the lightweight division, by virtue of the fact that he is clearly the best fighter p4p in the world AND beat Marquez earlier this year. It takes a moron not to be able to see this. I agree MARQUEZ is the RING CHAMP but Manny Pacquiao IS the number 1 in reality.

Forgive me my capitals but I'm really having a hard time getting this across to you.

I'm not disagreeing that the Ring magazine should rank Marquez at number 1, they SHOULD, it's just that IN THIS CASE he clearly isn't number 1.


As regards Calzaghe why would he not be considered the man at light heavy? He beat Hopkins who beat Tarver. He didn't lose to Hopkins at a lower weight and he's never lost a fight. It's a completely different scenario to Pacquiao and Marqauez.

I'm not saying that lineage should be ignored, merely that in the case of Pacquiao and Marquez, to follow the lineage over everthing else leads to an inaccurate picture of the lightweight division.

Anyway the whole thing is completely arbitary anyway, it matters not one bit as the rankings are purely subjective and Manny's next fight will be at junior welter anyway.

I just wish you'd get the point.

Anyway rant over

[Fenster]

Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?

I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.

For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as

[Fenster]

Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.

Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man.

Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.

Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.

Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.

When Ricky beat Kostya, MANY people considered him no.2 behind Floyd at 140. Even though Floyd was CLEARLY a better fighter than Ricky, Ricky was still THE MAN because he beat THE MAN. Simple as.

You see it is the same with Casa.

Casa was the man from when he beat Diego Corrales. Just because people rated Diaz a better fighter doesn't give him claim to the "man that beat the man" throne.

[ICB]

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds.

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.

Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.

But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?

I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.

But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.

Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.

He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.

Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.

Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.

Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.

Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.

You've said it well Bilbo. I give the number 1 ranking to Campbell and number 2 to pacquaio. Jmm would be number 3.

No way would it go to Marquez.

No way it would go to Juan Manuel Marquez ? then why do you rate your boy higher ? clearly stopping Joel Casamayor is a better achievement than beating David Diaz a fight which 95 percent thought was a mismatch.