Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?

[leftylee]

Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?

Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)

Hatton is only The Ring champion

Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.

[Fenster]

Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?

Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)

Hatton is only The Ring champion

Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.

Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man.

[leftylee]

Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?

Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)

Hatton is only The Ring champion

Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.

Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man.

Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.

Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.

Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.

[Fenster]

Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.

Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man.

Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.

Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.

Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.

When Ricky beat Kostya, MANY people considered him no.2 behind Floyd at 140. Even though Floyd was CLEARLY a better fighter than Ricky, Ricky was still THE MAN because he beat THE MAN. Simple as.

You see it is the same with Casa.

Casa was the man from when he beat Diego Corrales. Just because people rated Diaz a better fighter doesn't give him claim to the "man that beat the man" throne.

[Bomp]

Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man.

Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.

Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.

Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.

When Ricky beat Kostya, MANY people considered him no.2 behind Floyd at 140. Even though Floyd was CLEARLY a better fighter than Ricky, Ricky was still THE MAN because he beat THE MAN. Simple as.

You see it is the same with Casa.

Casa was the man from when he beat Diego Corrales. Just because people rated Diaz a better fighter doesn't give him claim to the "man that beat the man" throne.

Exactly. the argument on both sides is flawed. To be undisputed you have to go through most of your top competition at THAT weight. The paralles to Casa and Hatton are uncanny. I'm a big Joe Calzghe fan, but I certainly con't consider him undisputed no.1 at LH, but he is at SM.

Number 1 at lightweight will remain vacant in my eyes until it's sorted in the ring.

On a side note, hope JMM against Nate next, be a travesty if Juan gets a shot at JMM before Nate, JD is young enough to wait for his shot, and went to the back of the queu after losing to Campbell.

[JonnyFolds]

I am sure it has been stated already... But my take on it is this.

You got Casa as champ. All-be-it a champ who has had a couple gifts. Now a dethroned champ. Now JMM beats him up... convincingly...

You've got J Diaz... He clears out the division loses to Nate. Kudos Nate your the champ.

So its the man who beat the man(JMM)... vs the man who beat the man who beat everybody (Nate).

Pac came in there and beat a somebody. And, although Pac beat JMM in another division AND only slightly (or not according to some) you have to give JMM credit for beating a tougher bigger stronger higher ranking opponent.

As for P4P that is where you'll see Pac above him until JMM gets the Win...

[GAME]

I do not agree

Campbell is number 1 as he is the unified champion

Manny Pacquiao is number 2 as WBC champ and the man who recently beat Marquez

Juan Manuel Marquez is lucky to get the number 3 spot IMO cuz I think Baby Bull Diaz has done more than him at the weight .

[Kev]

Galaxy, Fenster, Lance you are all missing the point entirely.

I'm not saying Marquez shouldn't be the RING champion, I've agreed with that all along. According to the RING criteria Marquez is the the champ at 130 because he beat the man. I completely agree as I have said from the start. The linear title IS important to the RING magazine.

BUT I REGARD Manny Pacquaio as the number 1 because he is the p4p best fighter on the planet (universally recognised) AND beat Marquez just 6 months ago.

I put Campbell at number 2 because he beat the BEST LIGHTWEIGHT in the divison in the 3 TIMES champ Juan Diaz.

Marquez gets the number 3 spot for beating a washed up and done Casamayor who got stripped of his belt through inactivity and should have lost it against Santa Cruz anyhow.


I'm NOT saying that these should be the ring rankings, I agree they SHOULD NOT BUT THEY ARE THE MOST ACCURATE!!!!!!!!!!


That's all I've been saying all along. That in is this particular instance the Ring Magazines insistence of following the title lineage actually gives an innacurate picture of who is really the best in the division.

I've said this from my first post. How are you all so dull to understand this?

I agree with you that the Ring rankings should be 1.Marquez, 2. Pacquiao, 3. Campbell BUT I disagree that they are the most accurate rankings.

From the sounds of it you (galaxy and Fenster at least) agree with me on this so why are you still arguing the point?

The RING method of ranking fighters is only one way to rank them. It is not definitive, and it is not sacrosanct.

Manny Pacquaio IS the number 1 fighter in the lightweight division, by virtue of the fact that he is clearly the best fighter p4p in the world AND beat Marquez earlier this year. It takes a moron not to be able to see this. I agree MARQUEZ is the RING CHAMP but Manny Pacquiao IS the number 1 in reality.

Forgive me my capitals but I'm really having a hard time getting this across to you.

I'm not disagreeing that the Ring magazine should rank Marquez at number 1, they SHOULD, it's just that IN THIS CASE he clearly isn't number 1.


As regards Calzaghe why would he not be considered the man at light heavy? He beat Hopkins who beat Tarver. He didn't lose to Hopkins at a lower weight and he's never lost a fight. It's a completely different scenario to Pacquiao and Marqauez.

I'm not saying that lineage should be ignored, merely that in the case of Pacquiao and Marquez, to follow the lineage over everthing else leads to an inaccurate picture of the lightweight division.

Anyway the whole thing is completely arbitary anyway, it matters not one bit as the rankings are purely subjective and Manny's next fight will be at junior welter anyway.

I just wish you'd get the point.

Anyway rant over

[Fenster]

Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?

I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.

For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as

[Kev]

Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?

I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.

For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as

Ah come on man you're making me bang my head against a wall now!

I AGREE with you, Marquez is the CHAMPION according the title lineage and the RING magazine. I've AGREED all along.

BUT on a straight ranking system of who has done the most and who has beaten who, Manny is number 1 becuase he is the best p4p fighter on the planet. He beat Marquez last time. Campbell is higher becuase he beat Juan Diaz who held 3 world titel belts and was clearly the worlds best lightweight.

I'm not claiming that my rankings should be the Ring magazines rankings they should not, I'm just claiming that they are the most accurate.

Is it really that hard to understand? All I'm saying is that Manny Pacquaio is the best fighter in the lightweight division courtesy of being considered the best fighter in the world, and Campbell is second courtesy of beating who EVERYBODY considered to be the best lightweight in the world in Juan Diaz.

Marquez beat Casamayor who had been stripped of his belt for inactivity and who got schooled completely and utterly by Santa Cruz and who almost lost to the mediocre Katsidis. He was a shell of his former self.


So again, my rankings are not meant to be official, they are not meant to replace the Ring magazines hallowed ratings they just reflect in my little opinion the most accurate state of affairs in the lightweight division.

PLease stop going on about the champ beating the champ because I've agreed with you regarding this since my fisrt post in this thread.

Officialy Marquez is THE MAN for beating the man. I'm just saying, and have said all along, that this isn't the most accurate ranking and that Pacquaio and Campbell should rate higher, if only in my purely fictictious and hypothetical ranking system.

Thankyou

[Fenster]

Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?

I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.

For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as

Ah come on man you're making me bang my head against a wall now!

I AGREE with you, Marquez is the CHAMPION according the title lineage and the RING magazine. I've AGREED all along.

BUT on a straight ranking system of who has done the most and who has beaten who, Manny is number 1 becuase he is the best p4p fighter on the planet. He beat Marquez last time. Campbell is higher becuase he beat Juan Diaz who held 3 world titel belts and was clearly the worlds best lightweight.

I'm not claiming that my rankings should be the Ring magazines rankings they should not, I'm just claiming that they are the most accurate.

Is it really that hard to understand? All I'm saying is that Manny Pacquaio is the best fighter in the lightweight division courtesy of being considered the best fighter in the world, and Campbell is second courtesy of beating who EVERYBODY considered to be the best lightweight in the world in Juan Diaz.

Marquez beat Casamayor who had been stripped of his belt for inactivity and who got schooled completely and utterly by Santa Cruz and who almost lost to the mediocre Katsidis. He was a shell of his former self.


So again, my rankings are not meant to be official, they are not meant to replace the Ring magazines hallowed ratings they just reflect in my little opinion the most accurate state of affairs in the lightweight division.

PLease stop going on about the champ beating the champ because I've agreed with you regarding this since my fisrt post in this thread.

Officialy Marquez is THE MAN for beating the man. I'm just saying, and have said all along, that this isn't the most accurate ranking and that Pacquaio and Campbell should rate higher, if only in my purely fictictious and hypothetical ranking system.

Thankyou

My first post was -

Forget the silly alphabet belts - you're (bilbo) picking the champ on your interpretation of formlines. That just complicates things further. How about Casamayor already having a victory over Campbell?

Marquez is the MAN because Casa was the man. Campbells three alpahbets mean fuck all. Fact.

I understand what you're saying. Instead of qualifying the worth of Campbell and Diaz by their "three world title belts" just say you believe they were showing the far more impressive form compared with Casa.

The belts are the problem. And if you trace back, i'm pretty sure you'll find the lineal champ had been stripped of all at some point, hence why three ended up with Juan Diaz, even though he never faced the lineal champ and one ended up with David Diaz.

Casa was stripped by the WBC for choosing to pursue a far more lucrative fight with Acileno Frietas over David Diaz. That is nonsense. Makes Diaz as WBC champion nonsense, so inturn makes Pac as WBC champion nonsense - even though Pac is worthy of being a top lightweight and is clearly P4P no.2 (according to Fenster's rankings)

[Galaxy]

Exactly Fenster!

I understand where Bilbo is coming from but thats what P4P rankings are for. Divisional ratings are different because there is a champion at the top & I can't see how anyone can rate somebody above the champ!

As I've said through out this thread the champion is not always the best fighter in the division but they deserve the respect as champion. P4P is for ranking on order of form & accomplishments. You can't become champ without beating the champ.

As Fenster & I have stated before all those paper titles that Nate holds were either stripped or given up dating back to Castillo!

[rjj tszyu]

Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?

I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.

For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as

Fenster I agree with everything you are saying except for the JMM is better than Pac! Both fights were too close to call for me and could have gone either way but that to me is just because stylistically JMM is a nightmare for Pac. But if you were to have a little league with say a prime Morales, prime Barrera, prime JMM and prime Pac I would predict it to be like this:

1)Manny Pacquiao W-2 L-0 D-1 Pts-7
2)Marco Barrera W-2 L-1 D-0 Pts-6
3)Erik Morales W-1 L-2 D-0 Pts-3
4)JM Marquez W-0 L-2 D-1 Pts-1

My league is set up in a football type style with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw and this is honestly how I would see it panning out. I see both Barrera and Morales beating JMM in their primes and I do not believe you can use the existing fight between JMM and Barrera as Barrera was way past his best but still gave a good account of himself and who knows what would have happened had Jay Nady not been in charge that night.

[Kev]

Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?

I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.

For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as

Fenster I agree with everything you are saying except for the JMM is better than Pac! Both fights were too close to call for me and could have gone either way but that to me is just because stylistically JMM is a nightmare for Pac. But if you were to have a little league with say a prime Morales, prime Barrera, prime JMM and prime Pac I would predict it to be like this:

1)Manny Pacquiao W-2 L-0 D-1 Pts-7
2)Marco Barrera W-2 L-1 D-0 Pts-6
3)Erik Morales W-1 L-2 D-0 Pts-3
4)JM Marquez W-0 L-2 D-1 Pts-1

My league is set up in a football type style with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw and this is honestly how I would see it panning out. I see both Barrera and Morales beating JMM in their primes and I do not believe you can use the existing fight between JMM and Barrera as Barrera was way past his best but still gave a good account of himself and who knows what would have happened had Jay Nady not been in charge that night.

I'll say this much. In Morales, Barrera, Pacquaio and Marquez we have seen superstar fighters to rival Leonard, Hearns, Hagler and Duran.

The way they have all started at the lower weights and consistently moved up to dominate whatever divisions they were in over the past decade or more has been sensational.

From bantam to lightweight these guys have dominated and should go down in history as the great little guys quartet in boxing history.

Boxing will be much the emptier when all four of these legends finally call it a day.

[rjj tszyu]

Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?

I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.

For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as

Fenster I agree with everything you are saying except for the JMM is better than Pac! Both fights were too close to call for me and could have gone either way but that to me is just because stylistically JMM is a nightmare for Pac. But if you were to have a little league with say a prime Morales, prime Barrera, prime JMM and prime Pac I would predict it to be like this:

1)Manny Pacquiao W-2 L-0 D-1 Pts-7
2)Marco Barrera W-2 L-1 D-0 Pts-6
3)Erik Morales W-1 L-2 D-0 Pts-3
4)JM Marquez W-0 L-2 D-1 Pts-1

My league is set up in a football type style with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw and this is honestly how I would see it panning out. I see both Barrera and Morales beating JMM in their primes and I do not believe you can use the existing fight between JMM and Barrera as Barrera was way past his best but still gave a good account of himself and who knows what would have happened had Jay Nady not been in charge that night.

I'll say this much. In Morales, Barrera, Pacquaio and Marquez we have seen superstar fighters to rival Leonard, Hearns, Hagler and Duran.

The way they have all started at the lower weights and consistently moved up to dominate whatever divisions they were in over the past decade or more has been sensational.

From bantam to lightweight these guys have dominated and should go down in history as the great little guys quartet in boxing history.

Boxing will be much the emptier when all four of these legends finally call it a day.

Amen to that