A neutrals perspective on the Manny debate ..........

[Jimmy G-Force]

the key is how to approach MP the right way.

Isnt that just the truth. His way or the highway.

Yep, give him and his team ALL they want or no fight for the hungry public. As a man of the people Manny does come come across as a rather selfish and egotistical little man. All it took was a random blood test.

Very true Miles. Power, fame and money can do alot to obscure a mans perception of himself. Sad but true. And as much as he comes across as this happy go lucky fighter, there is a huge power freak within that small frame. No question.

[pacQ]

the key is how to approach MP the right way.

Isnt that just the truth. His way or the highway.

hehehehe

imo, MP was "rubbed the wrong way".

consider the timing - MP's birthday dec17, and christmas season here in the philippines, MP is very very busy with family and friends etc.

He also had to deal with: 1) showbizness-his wapakman entry to the film festival. (it flopped) and 2) politics -May2010 elections.

so many distractions, so much on this simple guy's mind then here comes the drugtesting demand from the mayweather camp.

[Kirkland Laing]

Manny beating Oscar I can understand. Oscar was a shell of his former self fighting at a weight he hadn't been at for a decade. He was dead at the weight, couldn't rehydrate and was basically a mobile punchbag. Hatton wasn't quite that far gone but far enough gone and from the first post in the thread it looks like the rumours about him getting beaten up by his sparring partners were true. But it's the Cotto fight that got me. Cotto definitely was on the slide but it's the way he got beaten up for the duration of the fight. It's like Cotto was the ex-106 pounder and Manny was the guy whose normal weight is over 160. I can accept the weight gain over the past five years, I'm aware he weighed around 140 in the ring for fights five years ago. I can accept he's improved a lot as a boxer over the last five years. But I'm having trouble accepting that he's kept his power and can beat up big elite welters. You just don't go from losing to a completely shot Erik Morales at 129 five years ago to beating up top welterweights without something going on.

[pacQ]

Manny beating Oscar I can understand. Oscar was a shell of his former self fighting at a weight he hadn't been at for a decade. He was dead at the weight, couldn't rehydrate and was basically a mobile punchbag. Hatton wasn't quite that far gone but far enough gone and from the first post in the thread it looks like the rumours about him getting beaten up by his sparring partners were true. But it's the Cotto fight that got me. Cotto definitely was on the slide but it's the way he got beaten up for the duration of the fight. It's like Cotto was the ex-106 pounder and Manny was the guy whose normal weight is over 160. I can accept the weight gain over the past five years, I'm aware he weighed around 140 in the ring for fights five years ago. I can accept he's improved a lot as a boxer over the last five years. But I'm having trouble accepting that he's kept his power and can beat up big elite welters. You just don't go from losing to a completely shot Erik Morales at 129 five years ago to beating up top welterweights without something going on.

tell that to the NSAC.

NO PROOFS NO EVIDENCE, ALL BASELESS ACCUSATIONS SPECULATION

[Kirkland Laing]

Manny beating Oscar I can understand. Oscar was a shell of his former self fighting at a weight he hadn't been at for a decade. He was dead at the weight, couldn't rehydrate and was basically a mobile punchbag. Hatton wasn't quite that far gone but far enough gone and from the first post in the thread it looks like the rumours about him getting beaten up by his sparring partners were true. But it's the Cotto fight that got me. Cotto definitely was on the slide but it's the way he got beaten up for the duration of the fight. It's like Cotto was the ex-106 pounder and Manny was the guy whose normal weight is over 160. I can accept the weight gain over the past five years, I'm aware he weighed around 140 in the ring for fights five years ago. I can accept he's improved a lot as a boxer over the last five years. But I'm having trouble accepting that he's kept his power and can beat up big elite welters. You just don't go from losing to a completely shot Erik Morales at 129 five years ago to beating up top welterweights without something going on.

tell that to the NSAC.

NO PROOFS NO EVIDENCE, ALL BASELESS ACCUSATIONS SPECULATION

Manny refuses to give us the proof that he's innocent. All he has to do is to give a few teaspoons of blood, yet he refuses to do it and is making endless ridiculous excuses for not doing so even though he's losing a $40 million payday and his reputation by continuing to refuse. Why won't he give us the proof?

[brucelee]

You may just consider me another member of the "anti-pac brigade", as I happen to be a Mayweather fan, but regardless here's my two cents, on your two cents, put em together, and we get four cents. Believe it or not, I like Manny. I agree, he's done wonderful things for the sport of boxing. I think that his well-publicized refusal to random blood-testing may even be one of the last great things he does for the sport, as I believe the sport needs better testing methods. I'll touch on that later.

Firstly, you labeled PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) all under the same catagory, where "what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio". This is most definitely not true. You are probably thinking of HGH, and while that's a possibility for the weight gain, there are other things like EPO (which Conte said was very likely in Pac's case) which increase your stamina. Whether you like to believe it or not, if used correctly, these drugs (and others) do give you a competitive advantage over your opponents, hence why commissions test for them. My point is that the testing procedures that they have in place at the moment, don't do their job, and as technology improves, so will the drugs, the problem will only get worse.

Now, label me a Pac-hater or whatever, but I would also like to believe that Pacquiao has achieved these things clean. I am a boxing fan before I am ever a fan of a particular fighter (esp Mayweather). If the tables were turned I would be saying exactly the same thing to him.
"innocent until proven guilty?" Manny isn't letting us go to the proving grounds/trail. The only way to prove himself not guilty is with a trail, a trail of random blood testing, rather than a lawsuit against Floyd Sr.

Again, I'm a boxing fan before I'm ever a Mayweather fan. Boxing needs better testing methods in place (probably as much or more than any other sport).

A good article on your interactions with Pacquiao and his team, which gives a bit of psychological insight, but still, Manny is refusing to fight because of the blood tests. The situation hasn't changed.

i remember back then when me and my bros (i got 5 other brothers who all love boxing) first saw pac when he was maybe around 17 or 18, we were amazed at how manny keeps throwing power shots after power shots and never seem to tire. another thing is the kid has heart coz he doesn't mind getting hit as long as he put in his licks. my eldest bro said that the kid will never get anywhere because he doesn't have the proper boxing fundamentals and will lose once he faces someone with good skills. my bro even said no way he can beat a mexican coz we always considered them to be the best in the lower weight divisions. the rest of us defended manny's chances coz never have i seen anything like what the kid is capable of. we said all he needs is proper training coz he already got all the qualities of a potential great fighter. in time, even without world class training he won a world title and then he met freddy roach. freddy molded pac into what he is today. it took some time but i believe all the hard work paid off finally in the fight against david diaz where pacquiao finally realized his full potential.

if manny is on epo to increase his stamina, he musta been on it since he started boxing. lol

very true. Manny has an unbelievable stamina even when he was at the flyweight.

[Althugz]

First of all, there seems to be alot of negative bias towards Manny on this site. I can fully appreciate and understand the suspicions that have arisen regarding this affair, but whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ??

I've been reading about this for while, but as of yet, I've not bothered chipping in with my 2 cents until now. Now I like to think I'm pretty fair, and bearing in mind that Manny has battered 3 of my 4 favourite fighters of this era, it would be very easy to jump on this PED witchhunt. The bottom line is I cant, it's not fair. Until I have concrete evidence, then as far as I'm concerned, Manny is innocent.

Did I ever believe that Manny could move up to 147 and beat Oscar ? No I didnt. Do I think that win was down to PED's ? No I dont. The simple fact was that Oscar was done, shot, finished. I still give Manny props for doing what he did, but it hardly took a superhuman effort to beat what was a shadow of the Goldenboy. It was nothing more than perfect timing for Manny, and Roach knew this.

Do I think beating Hatton was the result of PED's. No I dont. I was told from someone within the Hatton camp, 3 weeks before the fight that Ricky would get knocked out. Rick had been struggling badly and getting beat up by lesser sparring partners. This KO really didnt come as a massive surprise. Even a peak Hatton would have been beaten by Manny, although not as easily. For me, Manny just had all tools required. Also, my other worry before this fight was how strong Manny looked at 147, albeit against a washed up De la Hoya. This told me that Ricky would no longer have the most important advantage in his game at 140lbs, which was his strength. If he couldnt bully Manny then he was as good as done, and he was.

Now for Cotto, did I believe that Manny would prove to be the stronger of the two as the fight went on ? No I didnt, that really defied conventional logic. But the start of Miguels demise was the fact he got hurt, badly and early, end of that story. I watched Cotto struggle at 140lbs for a while, I was very happy to see him move north and always believed he would be much better suited to 147lbs, and he was, but he was never a monster at 147lbs, like say Margarito.

The bottom line is acclimatization to the higher weight classes didnt happen overnight. This was, as far as I'm concerned, done very astutely over a period of time, and in my eyes, legally. Most fighters, even brilliant world champions, struggle to move through the weights with a great level on consistency. Very few manage to achieve what the likes of Floyd, Manny and Oscar have done in this era. But lets not forget this is a different era to years gone by. The dieting, nutritionists and the overall scientific approach that we have available for todays athletes are far superior to anything we have had before. Also, lets not forget, Floyd, Manny and Oscar are all very special fighters.

It's very easy to pass judgement on Manny, and the anti-Pac brigade are having a field day with this. It's certainly far from normal for a fighter to move from 108lbs all the way up to 147lbs and be competative with the worlds best. But it is possible, and I firmly believe that to the case with Manny, without PED's.

Why do I stand by Pacman ?

Firstly, with regards this whole testing situation. One thing I learnt from being around the Hatton camp during their negotiations with Manny is that he is a very hard man to deal with. Manny has so many people around him that he is influenced by, and to his detriment I believe.

Yepp, I've definitely come to the conclusion that everybody affiliated with Pacquaio is an asshole.

Hey, even head asshole Roach admitted that Pac wasn't the same guy he first met. Not saying that isn't the case with most famous people but you certainly don't expect to hear it from his trainer and it just seemed like a nice way of saying "Manny's a bit of a cunt these days"

I think one thing every boxing fan can universally agree on is the hope that both parties can put ego's aside and make this damn fight happen.

If it doesn't happen, when people ask me what I think the biggest robbery in boxing was? I'll reply with Manny Pacquaio vs Floyd Mayweather.

[TheBranMan]

Firstly, you labeled PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) all under the same catagory, where "what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio". This is most definitely not true. You are probably thinking of HGH, and while that's a possibility for the weight gain, there are other things like EPO (which Conte said was very likely in Pac's case) which increase your stamina. Whether you like to believe it or not, if used correctly, these drugs (and others) do give you a competitive advantage over your opponents, hence why commissions test for them. My point is that the testing procedures that they have in place at the moment, don't do their job, and as technology improves, so will the drugs, the problem will only get worse.

Now, label me a Pac-hater or whatever, but I would also like to believe that Pacquiao has achieved these things clean. I am a boxing fan before I am ever a fan of a particular fighter (esp Mayweather). If the tables were turned I would be saying exactly the same thing to him.
"innocent until proven guilty?" Manny isn't letting us go to the proving grounds/trail. The only way to prove himself not guilty is with a trail, a trail of random blood testing, rather than a lawsuit against Floyd Sr.

Again, I'm a boxing fan before I'm ever a Mayweather fan. Boxing needs better testing methods in place (probably as much or more than any other sport).

A good article on your interactions with Pacquiao and his team, which gives a bit of psychological insight, but still, Manny is refusing to fight because of the blood tests. The situation hasn't changed.

EPO Drug Testing, EPO Detection - World Anti-Doping Agency problem solved?

Interesting articles. I didn't realize that the urine test for EPO was just as useful as the blood test, however, EPO is only one of MANY performance enhancing drugs, more of which are being developed every year. It is still undeniable that some drugs are not detectable without random blood and urine testing, so the situation stays the same. Manny is refusing to fight because of drug tests. Period.

[pacQ]

Manny beating Oscar I can understand. Oscar was a shell of his former self fighting at a weight he hadn't been at for a decade. He was dead at the weight, couldn't rehydrate and was basically a mobile punchbag. Hatton wasn't quite that far gone but far enough gone and from the first post in the thread it looks like the rumours about him getting beaten up by his sparring partners were true. But it's the Cotto fight that got me. Cotto definitely was on the slide but it's the way he got beaten up for the duration of the fight. It's like Cotto was the ex-106 pounder and Manny was the guy whose normal weight is over 160. I can accept the weight gain over the past five years, I'm aware he weighed around 140 in the ring for fights five years ago. I can accept he's improved a lot as a boxer over the last five years. But I'm having trouble accepting that he's kept his power and can beat up big elite welters. You just don't go from losing to a completely shot Erik Morales at 129 five years ago to beating up top welterweights without something going on.

tell that to the NSAC.

NO PROOFS NO EVIDENCE, ALL BASELESS ACCUSATIONS SPECULATION

Manny refuses to give us the proof that he's innocent. All he has to do is to give a few teaspoons of blood, yet he refuses to do it and is making endless ridiculous excuses for not doing so even though he's losing a $40 million payday and his reputation by continuing to refuse. Why won't he give us the proof?

NEVER in the history of boxing has there been any "olympic style" random bloodtesting. its just the demand of the mayweathers/gbp.

mannyP has NEVER FAILED any medical tests given by ALL boxing governing bodies

lets see what happens next...

[TheBranMan]

tell that to the NSAC.

NO PROOFS NO EVIDENCE, ALL BASELESS ACCUSATIONS SPECULATION

Manny refuses to give us the proof that he's innocent. All he has to do is to give a few teaspoons of blood, yet he refuses to do it and is making endless ridiculous excuses for not doing so even though he's losing a $40 million payday and his reputation by continuing to refuse. Why won't he give us the proof?

NEVER in the history of boxing has there been any "olympic style" random bloodtesting. its just the demand of the mayweathers/gbp.

mannyP has NEVER FAILED any medical tests given by ALL boxing governing bodies

lets see what happens next...

A demand that will need to come into fruition in the sport at some point anyway, unless we want it to become a roided-up joke like the WWE. Why should it not happen now? Why not set a good example for the future of the sport in the biggest fight of our generation? Oh wait.. that's right, because Manny's scarred or needles, or superstitious, or whatever the excuse is this week....

[pacQ]

Manny refuses to give us the proof that he's innocent. All he has to do is to give a few teaspoons of blood, yet he refuses to do it and is making endless ridiculous excuses for not doing so even though he's losing a $40 million payday and his reputation by continuing to refuse. Why won't he give us the proof?

NEVER in the history of boxing has there been any "olympic style" random bloodtesting. its just the demand of the mayweathers/gbp.

mannyP has NEVER FAILED any medical tests given by ALL boxing governing bodies

lets see what happens next...

A demand that will need to come into fruition in the sport at some point anyway, unless we want it to become a roided-up joke like the WWE. Why should it not happen now? Why not set a good example for the future of the sport in the biggest fight of our generation? Oh wait.. that's right, because Manny's scarred or needles, or superstitious, or whatever the excuse is this week....

i dont think so esp. the demand came from the mayweathers & gbp. they wont own him!

personally i also want a clean boxing world. but it should be for ALL not only for mannyP just because the mayweathers and gbp sez so

[arcanum26]

tell that to the NSAC.

NO PROOFS NO EVIDENCE, ALL BASELESS ACCUSATIONS SPECULATION

Manny refuses to give us the proof that he's innocent. All he has to do is to give a few teaspoons of blood, yet he refuses to do it and is making endless ridiculous excuses for not doing so even though he's losing a $40 million payday and his reputation by continuing to refuse. Why won't he give us the proof?

NEVER in the history of boxing has there been any "olympic style" random bloodtesting. its just the demand of the mayweathers/gbp.

mannyP has NEVER FAILED any medical tests given by ALL boxing governing bodies

lets see what happens next...

You could also say that the penalty fee of $10 million per pound in excess of the agreed weight is the first in the history of boxing, afaik. That's just the demand of manny and his camp.

Simply put, you can't use the excuse "fukc it, this has never been demanded before as terms in a boxing fight, so I won't do it". Much like all of manny and his camp's prior excuses as to why they won't take the random tests without any string attached.

If it's really just a matter of pride, then the fact still lingers. Manny's refusal to take the tests has created a reservoir of ill will and doubt amongst many boxing fans and has certainly produced a blemish in pac's image that won't easily be removed by going taking the issue to court.

[TheBranMan]

NEVER in the history of boxing has there been any "olympic style" random bloodtesting. its just the demand of the mayweathers/gbp.

mannyP has NEVER FAILED any medical tests given by ALL boxing governing bodies

lets see what happens next...

A demand that will need to come into fruition in the sport at some point anyway, unless we want it to become a roided-up joke like the WWE. Why should it not happen now? Why not set a good example for the future of the sport in the biggest fight of our generation? Oh wait.. that's right, because Manny's scarred or needles, or superstitious, or whatever the excuse is this week....

i dont think so esp. the demand came from the mayweathers & gbp. they wont own him!

personally i also want a clean boxing world. but it should be for ALL not only for mannyP just because the mayweathers and gbp sez so

It isn't so that everyone in boxing is juicing except for Manny (yeh right :P), he can rest assured that Floyd is undergoing exactly the same tests that he's having to do. If it's only about ego then Floyd and GBP have already bent on their idea of USADA testing to suit Manny. He can't have everything his way.

Also, by your logic, if this was suggested by anyone but MW (governing body maybe), it would be worthwhile? Well, everyone now wants to know if Manny's been using. Silence your critics Manny, take the damn tests.

[brucelee]

A demand that will need to come into fruition in the sport at some point anyway, unless we want it to become a roided-up joke like the WWE. Why should it not happen now? Why not set a good example for the future of the sport in the biggest fight of our generation? Oh wait.. that's right, because Manny's scarred or needles, or superstitious, or whatever the excuse is this week....

i dont think so esp. the demand came from the mayweathers & gbp. they wont own him!

personally i also want a clean boxing world. but it should be for ALL not only for mannyP just because the mayweathers and gbp sez so

It isn't so that everyone in boxing is juicing except for Manny (yeh right :P), he can rest assured that Floyd is undergoing exactly the same tests that he's having to do. If it's only about ego then Floyd and GBP have already bent on their idea of USADA testing to suit Manny. He can't have everything his way.

Also, by your logic, if this was suggested by anyone but MW (governing body maybe), it would be worthwhile? Well, everyone now wants to know if Manny's been using. Silence your critics Manny, take the damn tests.

Just to satisfy you.... Manny is waiting for Mayweather's decision now to accept the deal.

manny agreed to a random drug testing. period.

if you can't still accept that kind of testing, I don't know what will satisfy you.

or....


maybe mayweather's is truly ducking Pac now just as he has ducked Cotto and Margarito.


Don't tell me now that you're an expert on PEDs detection after I've shown you some links.

FACT is.... gayweather is making ludicrous demands as Pac had also made his.

This PED issue has to rest if the Gayweather camp really wants to pursue this fight.

Their deadline to make a decision is today.

[TheBranMan]

i dont think so esp. the demand came from the mayweathers & gbp. they wont own him!

personally i also want a clean boxing world. but it should be for ALL not only for mannyP just because the mayweathers and gbp sez so

It isn't so that everyone in boxing is juicing except for Manny (yeh right :P), he can rest assured that Floyd is undergoing exactly the same tests that he's having to do. If it's only about ego then Floyd and GBP have already bent on their idea of USADA testing to suit Manny. He can't have everything his way.

Also, by your logic, if this was suggested by anyone but MW (governing body maybe), it would be worthwhile? Well, everyone now wants to know if Manny's been using. Silence your critics Manny, take the damn tests.

Just to satisfy you.... Manny is waiting for Mayweather's decision now to accept the deal.

manny agreed to a random drug testing. period.

if you can't still accept that kind of testing, I don't know what will satisfy you.

or....


maybe mayweather's is truly ducking Pac now just as he has ducked Cotto and Margarito.


Don't tell me now that you're an expert on PEDs detection after I've shown you some links.

FACT is.... gayweather is making ludicrous demands as Pac had also made his.

This PED issue has to rest if the Gayweather camp really wants to pursue this fight.

Their deadline to make a decision is today.

The only thing you did was admit on another thread that you don't know anything about PED detection. The links that someone else posted only showed possible advancements in the detection of HGH and detection of EPO in urine tests. Even if both were true, those are only 2 of many PEDs. As usual your argument is weak... and again, do you have a link supporting your statement that Manny has accepted random blood testing? Are there no more little pre-madonna strings attached to this one?