Weight Gain: De Le Hoya vs Pac

[Fenster]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

[blegit]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

[Fenster]

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.

Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.

[blegit]

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.

Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.

KOs are not meaningless. De la Hoya did have that explosiveness at the lower weights. And its not like Pac fought easy opponents. In a debate I'm open to whatever is reasonably possible. Obviously you don't believe Pac was on any PEDs. But do you think its possible that Pac is/was on PEDs? If not, then we'll just be arguing in circles and we should leave it alone.

[Fenster]

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

KO rate doesn't mean shit, that depends on who you fight.

Floyd never had the explosive power behind his speed that Pac showed. They were/are completely different fighters.

KOs are not meaningless. De la Hoya did have that explosiveness at the lower weights. And its not like Pac fought easy opponents. In a debate I'm open to whatever is reasonably possible. Obviously you don't believe Pac was on any PEDs. But do you think its possible that Pac is/was on PEDs? If not, then we'll just be arguing in circles and we should leave it alone.

It doesn't matter whether or not Pac was on PEDs. I'm saying you can't use KO percentage to judge the power of two differnent fighters, with two different styles, fighting different opponents as they move up in weight.

If Pac took drugs then i'm sure they made him more powerful. But he was an aggressive, KO puncher at the lighterweights.. so hardly surprising he still KO's people up in weight.

[miron_lang]

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

Id like to add that Pac was fast as a Featherweight. He's 3 times faster now compared againts Welterweights. He's not just fast but he has power. Big or not if you're getting hit tons of time you'll get knocked out.

[blegit]

Well, styles does help explain some but Pac's KO rate went up as he went up. Style alone doesn't do that. I don't want to make it out to be that Pac has to be on something. It could be coincidental. And as humans we speculate when we don't have the answers.

Id like to add that Pac was fast as a Featherweight. He's 3 times faster now compared againts Welterweights. He's not just fast but he has power. Big or not if you're getting hit tons of time you'll get knocked out.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Its not black and white like that. JuanMa would have a field day hitting Clottey but do you think JuanMa KOs Clottey? You still need the power in relation to your speed to KO these bigger guys. Clean or not, Pac has that.

[Fenster]

Pac's KO rate went up as he went up

When exactly did he start using PEDs then?

His record from Flyweight (WBC title win) to Welterweight reads - 23 wins by KO/TKO, 5 fights went the distance.

[Kirkland Laing]

"Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Pacquiao fought at weights ranging from 106 to 144 pounds. Between the ages of sixteen and thirty-one, Mayweather fought at weights ranging from 106 to 150 pounds."

From Thomas Hauser

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight. Manny is beating the shit out of elite welterweights. Almost every time he hit Cotto he was hurting him, he almost stopped him in the second round. That's just not normal.

[Fenster]

Floyd pretty much stopped knocking people out when he went north of 130. Manny moved up to 130 and beyond and his KO percentage improved and he's now beating up elite welterweights.

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight. Manny is beating the shit out of elite welterweights. Almost every time he hit Cotto he was hurting him, he almost stopped him in the second round. That's just not normal.

Cotto never had a great chin. It would have been more surprising if Pac didn't hurt him, considering what we saw against Hatton and Oscar.

As a general rule fighters punches don't have the same effect against naturally bigger men, but there have been plenty of fighters moving through the weights stopping bigger guys - Hearns, Duran, Oscar, etc...

Maybe Pac is a drug cheat. But taking into account his style and the fact he's been sparking guys his entire career, he's the perfect candidate for a fighter retaining his power.

[generalbulldog]

BTW, does anyone knows what happened to the emails from Pac's team supposedly wanting to keep his failed drug test a secret?

I sure wonder what happened to that claim? Surely it would be big news now and uncovered if it was true? Didn't Teddy Atlas say he saw them?

[OumaFan]

David Diaz took the punches pretty well actually, was he on roids then? Oscar took them pretty well. Hatton was an anomaly compared to the rest of his career. And Cotto probably could have gone the distance, granted Pacquaio's power did look good in that fight. I don't remember him being close to stopping Cotto in the second though.

Also his KO rate has always been pretty damn good against guys not named JMM. After his "step up" against Ledwaba he had 11 KO's in 15 fights against good opp, the non KO's were Sanchez, first Morales, second Barrera and Larios. And honestly you can make reasonable excuses for some of those fights. Morales of that first fight was unlikely to be stopped by just about anybody, second Barrera fight he seemed content to cruise a lot more than usual, the Sanchez fight was just odd and dirty and ended early.

I actually would be more surprised if he hadn't been on something, he obviously looks like he's hiding something. But just saying, all the speculation outside of that can be argued against easily, the putting on weight thing is not that hard to counter and really so is the power thing. One punch power is far from the reason he stopped ODLH, it took 9 rounds of bludgeoning to stop David Diaz, he took out Hatton early but Hatton had just been badly hurt by Juan Lazcano and hurt by lesser punchers like Collazo, and Cotto never had the greatest chin and still could have finished the fight.

[Kirkland Laing]

That can be explained by their styles - Pac is a non-stop attack merchant, Floyd is defensive minded.

As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight. Manny is beating the shit out of elite welterweights. Almost every time he hit Cotto he was hurting him, he almost stopped him in the second round. That's just not normal.

Cotto never had a great chin. It would have been more surprising if Pac didn't hurt him, considering what we saw against Hatton and Oscar.

As a general rule fighters punches don't have the same effect against naturally bigger men, but there have been plenty of fighters moving through the weights stopping bigger guys - Hearns, Duran, Oscar, etc...

Maybe Pac is a drug cheat. But taking into account his style and the fact he's been sparking guys his entire career, he's the perfect candidate for a fighter retaining his power.

But when you saw Manny vs. Cotto it was the guy who started at 106 that had all the power and Cotto looked like he was the one who came up from 106. I just don't see how you can go from moving up to featherweight, losing to a shot Erik Morales and having a 39-3-2 record with 30 kos in 44 fights at weights from 106 to 130 and then going 11-0 with eight kos against higher weights. I think he moved up to 130, lost to Morales, realised he had nothing at the weight and started cheating.

[mnmc10]

pac has been plague by weight issues on the lower weights. he just out grew lower weights. during those days he struggled to get his weight down hence losing stock stamina for the fight.

pac is an explosive boxer style wise he needs plenty of stamina to be effective. goin higher than 130lbs was easy on his body, he didnt needed to lose all that weight.

brawler/punch in bunches needs speed and stamina, higher weight division less weight draining equals more stamina and more speed.

alot of his previous opponents said that pac didnt hit that hard. he just hits so fast and too many.

i guess pac took very little peds when he fought odlh and jmm, took too many when he fought hatton and cotto. lol


"As a general rule fighters don't keep their power as they move up in weight."

they lose speed as you move up too, but the guys in the higher weights are naturally slower than smaller guys. so pac is usually faster than the naturally heavier guys.