A neutrals perspective on the Manny debate ..........

[brucelee]

You may just consider me another member of the "anti-pac brigade", as I happen to be a Mayweather fan, but regardless here's my two cents, on your two cents, put em together, and we get four cents. Believe it or not, I like Manny. I agree, he's done wonderful things for the sport of boxing. I think that his well-publicized refusal to random blood-testing may even be one of the last great things he does for the sport, as I believe the sport needs better testing methods. I'll touch on that later.

Firstly, you labeled PEDs (performance enhancing drugs) all under the same catagory, where "what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio". This is most definitely not true. You are probably thinking of HGH, and while that's a possibility for the weight gain, there are other things like EPO (which Conte said was very likely in Pac's case) which increase your stamina. Whether you like to believe it or not, if used correctly, these drugs (and others) do give you a competitive advantage over your opponents, hence why commissions test for them. My point is that the testing procedures that they have in place at the moment, don't do their job, and as technology improves, so will the drugs, the problem will only get worse.

Now, label me a Pac-hater or whatever, but I would also like to believe that Pacquiao has achieved these things clean. I am a boxing fan before I am ever a fan of a particular fighter (esp Mayweather). If the tables were turned I would be saying exactly the same thing to him.
"innocent until proven guilty?" Manny isn't letting us go to the proving grounds/trail. The only way to prove himself not guilty is with a trail, a trail of random blood testing, rather than a lawsuit against Floyd Sr.

Again, I'm a boxing fan before I'm ever a Mayweather fan. Boxing needs better testing methods in place (probably as much or more than any other sport).

A good article on your interactions with Pacquiao and his team, which gives a bit of psychological insight, but still, Manny is refusing to fight because of the blood tests. The situation hasn't changed.

i remember back then when me and my bros (i got 5 other brothers who all love boxing) first saw pac when he was maybe around 17 or 18, we were amazed at how manny keeps throwing power shots after power shots and never seem to tire. another thing is the kid has heart coz he doesn't mind getting hit as long as he put in his licks. my eldest bro said that the kid will never get anywhere because he doesn't have the proper boxing fundamentals and will lose once he faces someone with good skills. my bro even said no way he can beat a mexican coz we always considered them to be the best in the lower weight divisions. the rest of us defended manny's chances coz never have i seen anything like what the kid is capable of. we said all he needs is proper training coz he already got all the qualities of a potential great fighter. in time, even without world class training he won a world title and then he met freddy roach. freddy molded pac into what he is today. it took some time but i believe all the hard work paid off finally in the fight against david diaz where pacquiao finally realized his full potential.

if manny is on epo to increase his stamina, he musta been on it since he started boxing. lol

very true. Manny has an unbelievable stamina even when he was at the flyweight.

[Althugz]

First of all, there seems to be alot of negative bias towards Manny on this site. I can fully appreciate and understand the suspicions that have arisen regarding this affair, but whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ??

I've been reading about this for while, but as of yet, I've not bothered chipping in with my 2 cents until now. Now I like to think I'm pretty fair, and bearing in mind that Manny has battered 3 of my 4 favourite fighters of this era, it would be very easy to jump on this PED witchhunt. The bottom line is I cant, it's not fair. Until I have concrete evidence, then as far as I'm concerned, Manny is innocent.

Did I ever believe that Manny could move up to 147 and beat Oscar ? No I didnt. Do I think that win was down to PED's ? No I dont. The simple fact was that Oscar was done, shot, finished. I still give Manny props for doing what he did, but it hardly took a superhuman effort to beat what was a shadow of the Goldenboy. It was nothing more than perfect timing for Manny, and Roach knew this.

Do I think beating Hatton was the result of PED's. No I dont. I was told from someone within the Hatton camp, 3 weeks before the fight that Ricky would get knocked out. Rick had been struggling badly and getting beat up by lesser sparring partners. This KO really didnt come as a massive surprise. Even a peak Hatton would have been beaten by Manny, although not as easily. For me, Manny just had all tools required. Also, my other worry before this fight was how strong Manny looked at 147, albeit against a washed up De la Hoya. This told me that Ricky would no longer have the most important advantage in his game at 140lbs, which was his strength. If he couldnt bully Manny then he was as good as done, and he was.

Now for Cotto, did I believe that Manny would prove to be the stronger of the two as the fight went on ? No I didnt, that really defied conventional logic. But the start of Miguels demise was the fact he got hurt, badly and early, end of that story. I watched Cotto struggle at 140lbs for a while, I was very happy to see him move north and always believed he would be much better suited to 147lbs, and he was, but he was never a monster at 147lbs, like say Margarito.

The bottom line is acclimatization to the higher weight classes didnt happen overnight. This was, as far as I'm concerned, done very astutely over a period of time, and in my eyes, legally. Most fighters, even brilliant world champions, struggle to move through the weights with a great level on consistency. Very few manage to achieve what the likes of Floyd, Manny and Oscar have done in this era. But lets not forget this is a different era to years gone by. The dieting, nutritionists and the overall scientific approach that we have available for todays athletes are far superior to anything we have had before. Also, lets not forget, Floyd, Manny and Oscar are all very special fighters.

It's very easy to pass judgement on Manny, and the anti-Pac brigade are having a field day with this. It's certainly far from normal for a fighter to move from 108lbs all the way up to 147lbs and be competative with the worlds best. But it is possible, and I firmly believe that to the case with Manny, without PED's.

Why do I stand by Pacman ?

Firstly, with regards this whole testing situation. One thing I learnt from being around the Hatton camp during their negotiations with Manny is that he is a very hard man to deal with. Manny has so many people around him that he is influenced by, and to his detriment I believe.

Yepp, I've definitely come to the conclusion that everybody affiliated with Pacquaio is an asshole.

Hey, even head asshole Roach admitted that Pac wasn't the same guy he first met. Not saying that isn't the case with most famous people but you certainly don't expect to hear it from his trainer and it just seemed like a nice way of saying "Manny's a bit of a cunt these days"

I think one thing every boxing fan can universally agree on is the hope that both parties can put ego's aside and make this damn fight happen.

If it doesn't happen, when people ask me what I think the biggest robbery in boxing was? I'll reply with Manny Pacquaio vs Floyd Mayweather.

[miron_lang]

First of all, there seems to be alot of negative bias towards Manny on this site. I can fully appreciate and understand the suspicions that have arisen regarding this affair, but whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ??

I've been reading about this for while, but as of yet, I've not bothered chipping in with my 2 cents until now. Now I like to think I'm pretty fair, and bearing in mind that Manny has battered 3 of my 4 favourite fighters of this era, it would be very easy to jump on this PED witchhunt. The bottom line is I cant, it's not fair. Until I have concrete evidence, then as far as I'm concerned, Manny is innocent.

Did I ever believe that Manny could move up to 147 and beat Oscar ? No I didnt. Do I think that win was down to PED's ? No I dont. The simple fact was that Oscar was done, shot, finished. I still give Manny props for doing what he did, but it hardly took a superhuman effort to beat what was a shadow of the Goldenboy. It was nothing more than perfect timing for Manny, and Roach knew this.

Do I think beating Hatton was the result of PED's. No I dont. I was told from someone within the Hatton camp, 3 weeks before the fight that Ricky would get knocked out. Rick had been struggling badly and getting beat up by lesser sparring partners. This KO really didnt come as a massive surprise. Even a peak Hatton would have been beaten by Manny, although not as easily. For me, Manny just had all tools required. Also, my other worry before this fight was how strong Manny looked at 147, albeit against a washed up De la Hoya. This told me that Ricky would no longer have the most important advantage in his game at 140lbs, which was his strength. If he couldnt bully Manny then he was as good as done, and he was.

Now for Cotto, did I believe that Manny would prove to be the stronger of the two as the fight went on ? No I didnt, that really defied conventional logic. But the start of Miguels demise was the fact he got hurt, badly and early, end of that story. I watched Cotto struggle at 140lbs for a while, I was very happy to see him move north and always believed he would be much better suited to 147lbs, and he was, but he was never a monster at 147lbs, like say Margarito.

The bottom line is acclimatization to the higher weight classes didnt happen overnight. This was, as far as I'm concerned, done very astutely over a period of time, and in my eyes, legally. Most fighters, even brilliant world champions, struggle to move through the weights with a great level on consistency. Very few manage to achieve what the likes of Floyd, Manny and Oscar have done in this era. But lets not forget this is a different era to years gone by. The dieting, nutritionists and the overall scientific approach that we have available for todays athletes are far superior to anything we have had before. Also, lets not forget, Floyd, Manny and Oscar are all very special fighters.

It's very easy to pass judgement on Manny, and the anti-Pac brigade are having a field day with this. It's certainly far from normal for a fighter to move from 108lbs all the way up to 147lbs and be competative with the worlds best. But it is possible, and I firmly believe that to the case with Manny, without PED's.

Why do I stand by Pacman ?

Firstly, with regards this whole testing situation. One thing I learnt from being around the Hatton camp during their negotiations with Manny is that he is a very hard man to deal with. Manny has so many people around him that he is influenced by, and to his detriment I believe. I kid you not, you would not believe all the shit that went on before Manny finally signed to fight Ricky. It was like a soap opera. From what I witnessed first hand, leads me to believe this is more a case of Manny simply not wanting to give Floyd and Co. their own way. Do I think this is a smart move by Manny ? Hell no, it's another PR disaster.

Does that make Manny guilty ? Not in my eyes, just seriously mis-informed. Manny, although his entourage exceeds that of 50 cent, loves to be his own man. His standing in his country is phenonmenal, it trancends the sport of boxing and some. With this comes an ego, albeit not one that is portrayed through the boxing media. It's Manny's terms or nothing, and this is where the ridiculous battle of ego's with Floyd has manifested. The last fighter you want to be in a battle of ego's with is Mayweather, period. And I truly believe this is what it is, and I dont see it subsiding anytime soon, which is to the obvious detriment of the game.

So why doesnt Manny just agree to the tests and be done ?

Back to the ego thing for me. He is a proud warrior, who has got, in my opinion , to where he is through hard work and a natural talent that has been brilliantly honed by Roach. In Manny's eyes why should he ? And to an extent I agree. This is round one in the mind games with Mayweather. And if he gives in to the test, Mayweather would be one up in his mind. It's very easy for us all to sit here and say, well you know what, why doesnt he just take the tests and prove everyone wrong. Should he really have to ? Ask yourself, would you ? Especially if you know yourself your clean ?

I believe the reason Manny has moved through the weights so effortlessly, and beaten who he has is through a massive improvement in his game. Roach really has created a monster in Manny. He is no longer that left- hand happy fighter of years ago. He is well and truly the full package in every area. Lightening hand speed, brilliant angles, ridiculous footwork, this all refined talent. The power he has in hands is natural, it's also the combination of freakish speed and angles that when delivered gives him that power. Speed kills, and the ones you dont see coming are the ones that hurt. Thats Manny's technique for me, and not PED's. I really dont believe any fight fan that can honestly say they havent noticed the massive improvements in Manny's technical game over the years, its nothing short of frightening.

PED's will only ever get you so far. You need a stupid amount of talent to be able to perform the way Manny has done consistently in recent times, and against the best fighters in the world may I add. You simply cannot just juice up and become the super-skilled technician Manny is, no way.

I also train and bodybuild, and I have in the past used all kinds of PEDS, over quite a few years. The one thing I have always felt is that what you increase in strength, you also lose a little in stamina, especially cardio. From training my body to playing football, these factors always became apparent to me. When I look at Manny's physique, the way his muscles are formed, the way he is cut, it does look like he may have used PED's. But you can get your body looking like that without juice, I have seen it many times. The one thing that is certain is that Manny's cardio has never been an issue, never. It's another reason I just dont feel he's guilty.

To conclude, I truly believe Manny to be a true warrior. His mentality tells me that. His skills are not in question, and I really do not believe he is the type of fighter to cheat. I just dont. Nothing about him tells me that is the case. People can jump on this anti-Pac bandwagon as much as they want. Most people on this bandwagon, if truth be known would really hope that Manny is guilty. That alone for me says everything. With all this said, I still dont believe he knows enough to beat Floyd, but thats another thread.

It's normally the media's job to build someone up then effortlessly knock them down. Manny has been a breath of freash air for the sport of boxing. He is a shining light in a sometimes dull landscape. In my opinion it is so wrong to tarnish the mans image and the sport of boxing without concrete evidence. As a fan for boxing, I truly believe we owe Manny that at the very least. Regardless whether he has battered my favourite fighters or not.

It's just my 2 cents, but as far as I'm concerned, innocent until proven guilty. I rest my case.

Great post!!!

[:::PSL:::]

Manny must be really greedy, not sharing his roids to Bobby.

Great post Jimmy.