From how many fights should Ali have been DQ'ed for holding?

I count 5 fights so far....2 glaring examples are the 2nd Frazier fight and the 2nd Spinks fight and I only just STARTED reviewing the tapes. This Octopus shoulda been DQ'ed several times to say the least for flagrant, excessive, rampant grabbing and holding on for dear life. I can't even get through the first 3 rounds of the Spinks rematch, I keep stopping the film and tallying up the fouls, the neck pushing-down, the neck grabbing.

If this guy had to fight toe-to-toe he'd a got KO'ed by half of his opponents after 1971, and he KNEW it, thus the Octopus tactics.

I personally dont think Clay was the greatest , he held far to much and i dont care for his jab move, holding, hands down style.
He was a terrific fighter for sure , but im not a fan of his personally.

Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. It's not his fault he got away with it and looking at him now its probably a good thing he did.

You're assuming that he wouldn't have done something different if he was being penalised for it.

That's true but I guess we'll never know... I've got a dvd of Ali-Frazier 2 where Ferdie Pacheco is commentating in hindsight and he mentions that the holding and applying of weight on the back of Joe's neck was something they worked on over and over in training. Surely Frazier's camp would have brought it up but it's funny how certain fighters consistently get away with things. Awestruck, pressure from promoters/teams and/or kickbacks? Has there been a case where its been proven that a big name name fighter has colluded with a ref?

Ali was allowed to cheat and he took full advantage. I blame Ali, he was the one doing the holding.
The man had no honor, I guess.

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

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I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

Eddie Futch complained loud and long about Ali's tactics on many occasions. There was quite a bit of turmoil over this, and over the referee named to work the fight in Manila. The thing about is, Ali kept saying he was the greatest, and people- even referees and commentators that should have remained neutral- bought into it. It alternately cracks me up/pisses me off when you talk to somebody who knows nothing of boxing, never watches the fights, can't tell a left hook from a straight right, but they are sure that Ali is the greatest of all time. And treat you like you're stupid if you disagree.

At his very best vs Cleveland Williams he was like a big Roy Jones Jr....at his worst he was like John Ruiz.

Joe Louis was the Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time, he fought the same way with the same style from when he started to when he retired and he dominated his era. If you were a boxer "You could run but you couldn't hide", if you were a slugger he'd beat you to the punch, & he knew his range better than any fighter I've ever seen.

I'm with Lyle on this one ..... Joe Louis was the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. A fighting machine who was so far ahead of his time in the way he fought. Cleaned out the division three times over, never ducked anyone. A fighter's fighter.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Eddie Futch complained loud and long about Ali's tactics on many occasions. There was quite a bit of turmoil over this, and over the referee named to work the fight in Manila. The thing about is, Ali kept saying he was the greatest, and people- even referees and commentators that should have remained neutral- bought into it. It alternately cracks me up/pisses me off when you talk to somebody who knows nothing of boxing, never watches the fights, can't tell a left hook from a straight right, but they are sure that Ali is the greatest of all time. And treat you like you're stupid if you disagree.

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I remember HBO doing a special on Ali-Frazier and Bryant Gumbel said something to the effect of "When Frazier won, you got the feeling that the bad guy won"......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrPyWDTTWxc


Who calls Joe Frazier "the bad guy"...everyone put their emotions in with Ali which is why he gets a pass for everything he ever did. From calling The Beatles "fags", to calling other black boxers "Uncle Toms", and calling Joe Frazier a "gorilla". Muhammad Ali was a hateful prick, a great fighter...no doubt he won a lot, but he got away with more hateful bullshit than any other fighter in the history of the game....ooooh but I should feel sorry for him because the punches caught up to him in a big way, yeah I don't think so. He can feel the pain he put Joe Frazier through for the rest of his life

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Originally Posted by Vendettos

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

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I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

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Jesus H. Christ! I hope you don't actually think Ali is bigger than boxing.
Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.
Yes, this forum would be here if Ali never existed, the Internet is bigger than Ali and boxing. IMO

I certainly agree that Joe Louis was the greatest heavyweight , their is a wonderful article on Cox's Corner website where he goes into detail on the mans skills.Someone asked how he'd have coped with modern heavies. The answer is simple, he'd have wiped the floor with 'em

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Originally Posted by Tyke72

I certainly agree that Joe Louis was the greatest heavyweight , their is a wonderful article on Cox's Corner website where he goes into detail on the mans skills.Someone asked how he'd have coped with modern heavies. The answer is simple, he'd have wiped the floor with 'em

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I think Louis had a timeless style. Sure guys these days could ATTEMPT to run from him, but slow down for 1 second and he'd make you pay dearly! Huge power, good fast hands.....he was deceptively fast with his hands because he knew his range and threw bombs with confidence.

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Originally Posted by Vendettos

I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

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I'm not trying to diminish what he means to the sport, I just think people only remember the wars with Frazier, and the KO's of Foreman and Liston. They forget that, in general, he was a safety first, stick-and-move, and sometimes "jab and grab" kind of fighter. A lot of his fights can bore someone to tears.

But Ali's popularity and what he's done for the sport transcends styles and excitement.

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.

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Can you even begin to comprehend how many great fighters (past and even present) first laced up boxing gloves because of Muhammad Ali?

How on earth would boxing be better without Ali??

Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. Muhammad Ali, Ray Leonard, Tyson, De La Hoya, Mayweather. These are the guys that inspired kids to beg their parents to sign them up in boxing classes.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.

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Can you even begin to comprehend how many great fighters (past and even present) first laced up boxing gloves because of Muhammad Ali?

How on earth would boxing be better without Ali??

Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. Muhammad Ali, Ray Leonard, Tyson, De La Hoya, Mayweather. These are the guys that inspired kids to beg their parents to sign them up in boxing classes.

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Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

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Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

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Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

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So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

People have to understand that Ali was a legend in his own lifetime while he was still fighting! By the time of his forced lay off from boxing he was already a polarizing figure not only in sport, but in politics as well. Had Ali never fought again after 1967 he still would be regarded as one of the most famous sports people of all time.
Ali had to continue fighting, he had to be in the limelight, there was simply to much money to be made. I have no doubt that Ali's outside ring activities had a negative impact on his ability to perform in the ring, in fact i would go as far to say that his boxing career was almost secondary to just being Muhammad Ali in the first place. Myth and legend were melded together with the Foreman fight and subsequent win, this has immortalized Ali forever in world sports and it has made him one of the most recognizable figures of the 20th century. Ali had to keep winning at all costs, his own legend had become bigger than the man himself. If he had lost to Foreman then he most likely would've retired early and some of these tactics would not be an issue. I believe he should've retired after the Thriller In Manila with Frazier. I wouldn't be too critical of Ali and his holding or any other tactic, be critical of the people who pressured him to continue fighting when he clearly should not have been due to outside influences, distractions and diminishing ability. The peak of his career was 1965-1967, he was forced to stop at least 2 years before that peak was due to end. (You tell me if Frazier would've beaten Ali in in 1968 or 1969?) Judge him on when he was a boxer in the 60's not the larger than life figure he was to become later.

great thread and Im glad I posed the question. Thanks to all. Kinda surprised to see so many people critical of Ali, which I am as well.

Mainly, to harrass Frazier and call so many terrible names to Liston and Foreman, now look at him. Now someone needs to call HIM names, make HIM feel bad, rub HIS head and leer and jeer and call HIM a gorilla, a mummy, an ugly bear, an acorn, so ugly, etc.

That wasnt just selling tickets my friends. He seriously hurt peoples' feelings or atleast tried to. That coming from a Muslim who says all human beings are equal and that Islam is the religion of tolerance and peace.

Laugh all you want about Ali's current state, if it makes you feel happy, Ali will always be the greatest heavyweight ever.

To answer your question about the same number as Rocky should have been disqualified for his illegal and dirty fighting. ;)

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Originally Posted by Master

Laugh all you want about Ali's current state, if it makes you feel happy, Ali will always be the greatest heavyweight ever.

To answer your question about the same number as Rocky should have been disqualified for his illegal and dirty fighting. ;)

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Not im my opinion he wasnt my friend.

Clay told us he was the greatest , but it doesnt mean its true.
Johnny Nelson was called the ENTERTAINER and he could send a glass eye to sleep.
Clay also called Patterson the RABBIT , but i dont think Floyd dug holes in peoples lawns, nor did he crap round turds.
Do you see my point ?

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by Master

Laugh all you want about Ali's current state, if it makes you feel happy, Ali will always be the greatest heavyweight ever.

To answer your question about the same number as Rocky should have been disqualified for his illegal and dirty fighting. ;)

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Not im my opinion he wasnt my friend.

Clay told us he was the greatest , but it doesnt mean its true.
Johnny Nelson was called the ENTERTAINER and he could send a glass eye to sleep.
Clay also called Patterson the RABBIT , but i dont think Floyd dug holes in peoples lawns, nor did he crap round turds.
Do you see my point ?

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You don't agree?

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Joe Louis was Ray Robinson's hero , Ray Robinson was Clay's hero , Clay was Ray Leonard's hero ,
Life goes on with or without Clay.

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Life goes on but is boxing as big? Hell no. Boxing is kept alive by it's stars. They generate interest in the sport. Without Ali, there's a hell of a void in the interest (and in turn, revenue) department.

The average person would have a hard time naming a current boxer besides Mayweather or Pacquiao. That same person would probably be able to list off a handful of UFC guys.

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So you dont think if no Clay , Liston wouldnt have been a big star , or Frazier , or Big George ? someone would have taken his place with honours

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I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

Louis is my favourite hev all time but Ali's foot print imo is a much larger one.

Holding has been a part of boxing since the end of grappling in the sport. Illegal yes and yet employed all the time. Boxing has not evolved in that regard as its rare to see a point deduction for it in this era or hear the once used ref phrase of punch and get out. Has Wlad ever lost a point?

The holding behind the head and hitting by Ali pissed me off the most and I remember him being warned multiple times in fights and never losing a point.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

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...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali :rolleyes:

Muhammad Ali wasn't original in how he acted...he was original in style, for a heavyweight simply due to athletic ability but....

http://bizarrelab.files.wordpress.co...son_boxer1.jpg

That man was who Ali modeled himself after. Ali just did it in an age when there were tvs in every household. Without Jack Johnson there would be no Ali.

Floyd Mayweather Jr. is even trying to be the Jack Johnson of this era! STILL over 100 years later, and the P4P #1 fighter is trying to beJack Johnson. Jack fought with an annoying style, he talked loads of trash, he laughed off hatred, he did things specifically to irk people, to push buttons. Ali copied him...he just tried to bring politics into the spotlight to be different....Jack Johnson didn't give 2 shits about politics.

Ali joined the "Nation of Islam" & dodged the draft....whoopty fucking doo. Jack Johnson had sex with white women & sped in his car through the rural south in the 1900's with no NAACP & no group of idiot thugs following Elijah Muhammad to "have his back"

Jack Johnson even has a better movie than Ali documentary (Unforgivable Blackness) & biopic (The Great White Hope).

Without Jack Johnson there's no Ali

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Muhammad Ali wasn't original in how he acted...he was original in style, for a heavyweight simply due to athletic ability but....

http://bizarrelab.files.wordpress.co...son_boxer1.jpg

That man was who Ali modeled himself after. Ali just did it in an age when there were tvs in every household. Without Jack Johnson there would be no Ali.

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To be honest it should be about the boxing not the other bullshit

Very true. Ali was like The Beatles he hit the scene at just the right time... he was talented but all the superfluous crap I could have done without.

You lot say you do not like the baggage that Ali brought but you still do not accept that what he did in the ring was better than any other heavyweight ever accomplished.

Without Joe Louis there would have been less opportunity for Ali, not Jack Johnson, get your facts right.

Get over it and judge him on his boxing as we have.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

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...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali :rolleyes:

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Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

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...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali :rolleyes:

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Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

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As was Joe Louis, Rocky was cheap, ......

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

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...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali :rolleyes:

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Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

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As was Joe Louis, Rocky was cheap, ......

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Forever copied. Never duplicated.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

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...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali :rolleyes:

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Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

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Womanizing isnt a crime , refusing to go to war is.

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

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Originally Posted by Vendettos

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

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I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

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Jesus H. Christ! I hope you don't actually think Ali is bigger than boxing.
Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.
Yes, this forum would be here if Ali never existed, the Internet is bigger than Ali and boxing. IMO

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I don't believe that. I did say I was just curious.

Some people would say that without Ali boxing would be dead.

I personally don't know. I believe it would still be here, but wed be missing a golden era.

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Originally Posted by Master

Laugh all you want about Ali's current state, if it makes you feel happy, Ali will always be the greatest heavyweight ever.

To answer your question about the same number as Rocky should have been disqualified for his illegal and dirty fighting. ;)

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yeah he did hit quite alot on the back of the head as his oppoonents sought shelter from the barrage of Suzie-Qs raining down and up from all directions. I didnt like when he hit Charles on the back of the head in the final KO barrage in the rematch, though Ezzard was already well buzzed and on his way to getting rocked and rolled anyway.

I also didnt appreciate him hitting Don Cockell whilst he was down, though we have seen Tyson, Foreman, and Lewis do the same, at the very least, but it doesnt make it right.

Marciano was once described by Bert Sugar as "he'll hit any target he can get his hands on: shoulders, elbows, hips, kidneys---ahh hell!! He'd hit ya on the souls of your feet if you let 'im!"

Well I dont appreciate that too much. Though he is my boxing hero.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

I don't. They lacked charisma and a personality. Ali almost did more for boxing outside the ring then he did in it.

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...ah yes, we never would have advanced trash talking & fake press conference fights without the great Ali :rolleyes:

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Don't insult my intelligence. Robinson was a chronic womanizer.

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Womanizing isnt a crime , refusing to go to war is.

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Many rich people draft dodged too at the time, so did Dempsey. Forget all that. Boxing he was the best.

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Originally Posted by Vendettos

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Originally Posted by beenKOed

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Originally Posted by Vendettos

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Ali held soooo goddamn much (he stunk out the joint vs Frazier in the 2nd fight... who the hell has a boring fight with Frazier??).

Ali had a lot of great moments in the sport and beat a lot of real killers, but IMO if you look at his career as a whole, he was more boring in the ring than the Klitschko's.

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I never find VKs fights boring.

Do you think this forum would exist if Ali wasn't the big name he was? Just curious.

I think he was the reason I ever knew about boxing as a child.

I personally think he was good at winning fights he probably shouldn't have, he won by any means.

---

Jesus H. Christ! I hope you don't actually think Ali is bigger than boxing.
Boxing would be different (better IMO) if Ali never existed, but it would still be doing fine.
Yes, this forum would be here if Ali never existed, the Internet is bigger than Ali and boxing. IMO

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I don't believe that. I did say I was just curious.

Some people would say that without Ali boxing would be dead.

I personally don't know. I believe it would still be here, but wed be missing a golden era.

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If Ali was not around title would change hands Fraiser, Foreman, Young, Norton, Holmes...