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Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
- Andre Ward was not impressive in his last fight, getting knocked down and receiving a gift decision from the judges, needing to use very negative tactics to survive the distance
- Sergey Kovalev was not especially impressive, although he clearly did enough to deserve to win
- Roman Gonzalez was not especially impressive in his past two fights, although he probably should have received a win in his last fight
- Age 35 Gennady Golovkin looked a bit past his best in his last fight, although he's still very good and won the fight against a very strong opponent in Daniel Jacobs
In contrast, Vasyl Lomachenko has been very impressive in his past three fights, completely dominating world-class opponents.
I'm not sure how to accurately sort out the rest of the top ten P4P, but it seems clear to me that Lomachenko should be P4P #1 at this time.
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I disagree with what you said about Ward and GGG but Loma is good. I think triple G is the best.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
Agreed. Loma is a great fighter, but has never fought anybody near the caliber of kovalev or ward (in the pros at least). Ward started out slow in his fight but looked really good later in the fight. Kovalev performed by far better than anybody that Ward has ever faced. Ward generally destroys everyone.
If Loma fights and beats Garcia, then he will most likely be #1 p4p in my eyes.
Just look at it this way. If Ward fought people on the level Sosa, it would be a blowout too. Same with kovalev. Loma still needs a few more fights probably.
At the end of it though, Crawford may be #1.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
I can't remember the last time it was so difficult to award someone no.1 p4p title
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Ward generally destroys everyone.
Destroys? :o
Ward's KO ratio is below 50%. He couldn't even stop an undersized journeyman like Alexander Brand.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freedom
- Andre Ward was not impressive in his last fight, getting knocked down and receiving a gift decision from the judges, needing to use very negative tactics to survive the distance- Sergey Kovalev was not especially impressive, although he clearly did enough to deserve to win- Roman Gonzalez was not especially impressive in his past two fights, although he probably should have received a win in his last fight- Age 35 Gennady Golovkin looked a bit past his best in his last fight, although he's still very good and won the fight against a very strong opponent in Daniel JacobsIn contrast, Vasyl Lomachenko has been very impressive in his past three fights, completely dominating world-class opponents. I'm not sure how to accurately sort out the rest of the top ten P4P, but it seems clear to me that Lomachenko should be P4P #1 at this time.
Agree on all points but Terrance Crawford and Mikey Garcia are no lower than lomachenko.Plus he does have a loss against Salido. Soon, Errol Spence will make it easy to say who is #1 P4P I think. I see Anthony Joshua rising to the top as well. At least, I hope so.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freedom
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Ward generally destroys everyone.
Destroys? :o
Ward's KO ratio is
below 50%. He couldn't even stop an undersized journeyman like Alexander Brand.
When I say destroy that doesn't necessarily mean to knockout the opponent. It means that he wins at least 10 rounds of every fight other than kovalev.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
I agree with MarkTKO, and just think it's cool that there is an argument again. It's always going to be impossible to say whether you base it more on a guys record or the form he is currently showing. Personally I think Loma is clearly at the top now, he hasn't yet been in a Ward-Kovalev type of match up, I just think he is better than those guys and that's all there is to it. If he fights Mikey Garcia and wins(I think he should be heavily favored) then that would probably change some peoples tunes, but realistically he is the same fighter. There is nobody whatsoever at 130 who is going to give him a good fight right now, so that's all we can hope for.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Lomachenko is amazing to watch and those sillks are definitely hard to ignore. Like others have said Ward & Kov are also in the arguement, Ward went up a division to fight the #1 guy, many thought Kov won. It was close either way. Gonzalez is fighting the top guys in his 4th weight class and was robbed in that last fight so he should still be considered also. Loma has that loss to Salido and although it was very early in his pro career he was beaten by a guy Mikey had already beaten. Like @Hulk said Crawford isn't far off and Spence could be included with a win over Brook. I also agree with @MARKTKO that it's been awhile since there has been such competition and debate on the #1 guy. Last time I remember it being disputed besides Floyd & Pac was possibly between Jones Jr, Trinidad & Mosley if my memory serves me correctly. I'm not really interested in P4P lists but I wouldn't have Loma at #1 just yet. A win over the potential Garcia/ Linares winner will strengthen his case.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
He is the best by some way in my opinion.
He has probably even eclipsed this man.
Attachment 4016
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.
Floyd didn't used to throw 100 punches a round, and he didn't do bad.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
I've only seen Lomachenko fight once and as skilled as he is I hardly see how someone with 9 fights can be considered for #1. And one of those also a loss.
He may well get there but not worthy yet
The end
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
His record is as good as most in just 9 fights
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Has there ever been greater footwork? He's the most standout, totally unique fighter i've ever seen, a defence and offence genuis. He makes lightening fast fighters look pedestrian and lights-out punchers look useless. His loss to Salido is the most bogus piece of form in current history. And his record in 9 fights stacks up with other top P4Pers.
Loma best three wins.
Walters
Russell jr
Martinez/Sosa
Crawford's best three.
Gamboa
Beltran
Burns/Postol
Golovkin best three.
Jacobs
Lemieux
Brook
Kovalev best three
Hopkins
Pascal
Cleverly
I have him a clear no.1. If you want to base it entirely on records then Ward and Chocolatitio can be above him.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe or Wade are better names for GGG than Brook.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.
No fighter is perfect, but ward is in no way a limited fighter. Kovalev has his flaws sure but he is very good.
Is calzaghe the best fighter ever in your eyes?
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
not wanting to jump in on your debate , but just a question @Fenster. If Brook hadn't got injured, how do you think the fight would've panned out? I got the impression the power was wearing him down.
I have to say the 3rd round from Brook was one of the "Ballsyist" rounds of boxing I've seen for a long time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
not wanting to jump in on your debate , but just a question @
Fenster. If Brook hadn't got injured, how do you think the fight would've panned out? I got the impression the power was wearing him down.
I have to say the 3rd round from Brook was one of the "Ballsyist" rounds of boxing I've seen for a long time.
Brook gave it his all but Triple G was always in control and Murray showed more bottle after being knocked down early and surviving into the later rounds.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
I have him a clear no.1. If you want to base it entirely on records then Ward and Chocolatitio can be above him.
I can't put him ahead of Crawford or Garcia yet but it is all down to personal opinion. Loma is brilliant and is included among any P4P debate. It's a fun time.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.
That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.
That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.
I always try to avoid the p4p stuff because you simply cannot imo define a clear check list of merit. It's all subjective and honestly has much to do with high profiles and marketability. Putting them there based on weight divisions gained or even 'official' ranked guys beat can be another rabbit hole because the validity of those trinkets held and ranking can be equally subjective if not steered that direction for a more well known guy. It's refreshing to see Inoue on Rings list but there was a point when every single guy was a regular on hbo or Showtime. Broner was once placed at 5 based solely on hype, frankly manufactured multi division trinkets and perceived future 'greatness'. It was laughable. I never bought Gonzalez as #1 because he simply gets hit too much, sounds crazy I know.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.
Totally agree, @Master . People tend to get carried away with a good performance when they want to see that fighter succeed. I like Brook, don't get me wrong. But do people really think GGG didn't fight a different type of fight knowing full well that it was only a matter of time, and that Brook couldn't hurt him? Do they think he would've allowed himself to get hit that many times had Brook been more of a danger? C'mon. Fighters adjust their styles according to what's in front of them. GGG stalked down Brook and did what everybody and their mother knew he was going to do. Kudos to Brook for lasting as long as he did.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Gonzalez does get hit but that's his style. The fact he's taking punches from guys at 115 and fighting them toe to toe is a credit to his ability and chin. Just the names alone on his record establish him as one of the best around. Niida, Takayama, Estrada, Yaegashi, Viloria, Cuadras, Wangek. Ioka wanted no part of him. His desire to fight the top guys is admirable.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Gonzalez does get hit but that's his style. The fact he's taking punches from guys at 115 and fighting them toe to toe is a credit to his ability and chin. Just the names alone on his record establish him as one of the best around. Niida, Takayama, Estrada, Yaegashi, Viloria, Cuadras, Wangek. Ioka wanted no part of him. His desire to fight the top guys is admirable.
Arroyo was no slouch either, having previously only lost a close SD to Amnat Ruenroeng in his home turf in Thailand. Ruenroeng has since lost his title, but Arroyo provided Gonzalez a pretty stiff test.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
not wanting to jump in on your debate , but just a question @
Fenster. If Brook hadn't got injured, how do you think the fight would've panned out? I got the impression the power was wearing him down.
I have to say the 3rd round from Brook was one of the "Ballsyist" rounds of boxing I've seen for a long time.
I have no doubt Brook would have been stopped, i don't even think he won three rounds.
Master named a bunch of middleweights Golovkin walloped who are "better names" than Brook. Not only is that stupid, as Brook is more high profile than them, but also stupid because Brook did better against Golovkin than all.
Thickos on here act like everything that happens is a first for boxing. Welterweights have been challenging middleweights since boxing began, the brilliant smaller man challenging the brilliant bigger man are among the most famous in history. It's the very fact that Brook is a top drawer proven world-class welterweight, far superior to those decent world-level middleweights, that he could hold his own for a while. The same Brook that fought Golovkin would have smashed Daniel Geale to bits.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
Gonzalez does get hit but that's his style. The fact he's taking punches from guys at 115 and fighting them toe to toe is a credit to his ability and chin. Just the names alone on his record establish him as one of the best around. Niida, Takayama, Estrada, Yaegashi, Viloria, Cuadras, Wangek. Ioka wanted no part of him. His desire to fight the top guys is admirable.
Arroyo was no slouch either, having previously only lost a close SD to Amnat Ruenroeng in his home turf in Thailand. Ruenroeng has since lost his title, but Arroyo provided Gonzalez a pretty stiff test.
Totally. I was just naming off the top of my head. There are many others also. Calderon was never really a possibility but I would have liked to see him face Nietes.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.
Floyd didn't used to throw 100 punches a round, and he didn't do bad.
He was much better when young and to be fair had good movement and defence later. Calzaghe would have windmilled him. Both different levels to plod Kov and clingy Ward. Easy for Calzaghe and Floyd.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandalf
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.
No fighter is perfect, but ward is in no way a limited fighter. Kovalev has his flaws sure but he is very good.
Is calzaghe the best fighter ever in your eyes?
Unbeatable really. A machine like no other. Only his hands could stop him and they helped him to evolve perfection.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
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Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
not wanting to jump in on your debate , but just a question @
Fenster. If Brook hadn't got injured, how do you think the fight would've panned out? I got the impression the power was wearing him down.
I have to say the 3rd round from Brook was one of the "Ballsyist" rounds of boxing I've seen for a long time.
I have no doubt Brook would have been stopped, i don't even think he won three rounds.
Master named a bunch of middleweights Golovkin walloped who are "better names" than Brook. Not only is that stupid, as Brook is more high profile than them, but also stupid because Brook did better against Golovkin than all.
Thickos on here act like everything that happens is a first for boxing. Welterweights have been challenging middleweights since boxing began, the brilliant smaller man challenging the brilliant bigger man are among the most famous in history. It's the very fact that Brook is a top drawer proven world-class welterweight, far superior to those decent world-level middleweights, that he could hold his own for a while. The same Brook that fought Golovkin would have smashed Daniel Geale to bits.
I agree what you're saying about Brook and I don't think he won 3 rounds, but he showed bags more heart and cojones than Murray et al. And just because somebody like Murray lasts more rounds where he adopts a high guard and doesn't really have a go, it doesn't mean he did better than Brook, because Brook had a proper go.
But on the other side of the coin , the weights are there for a reason, and as time goes on in a fight, the heavier man would have the advantage. Although Brook is an exceptionality big WW.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Alpha
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.
That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.
"Crawford beat Postol who was regarded no.2" - This is where ranking fighters from different divisions by who beat whom becomes a farce. Just because Postol was rated no.2 at 140 it doesn't mean he was realistically better than the no.10 ranked featherweight or no.12 middleweight or no.5 cruiserweight etc.
What made Postol no.2? He beat a "shot" Matthysse. He was no.2 because the division is really weak compared to others.
In fact Crawford's record is really weak for a P4P guy. Garcia's isn't much better. You see.. start ripping apart fighters records, all of a sudden everyone is crap (;D). Loma's wins stack up with anything Crawford has done.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
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Originally Posted by
Master
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Originally Posted by
Fenster
Have Geale, Rubio, Murray, Monroe and Wade ever been rated no.1 in their division and top 10 P4P by The Ring? That's a no. Only one of them has ever won a "world" title.
The only thing they have on Brook is being naturally bigger. And the "middleweight" Brook would beat the shit out of three and school the other two.
Middleweight Brook would do no such thing, everyone of those middleweights would have beaten Brook. That is the reason he fights at welterweight.
Everyone of them would beat Brook? Did they all do better than "middleweight" Brook against Golovkin too?
Geale, Rubio and Wade were knocked out inside 3 rounds. Monroe survived for 6 rounds, suffering three knockdowns and never won a round.
Brook was level 2-2 with Golovkin on two judges scorecards and 3-1 down on the other. He never hit the deck, quit or went close to being sparked, he lost through an injury.
That was because GGG rattled him early in the first round and played with him even taking unnecessary punches because they had little affect on him.
What's that got to do with anything?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think about what happened in the Brook-GGG fight.
However, anyone that thinks GGG let Brook hit him on purpose is a div. And even if the punches didn't have an effect (claimed by idiots that weren't taking them - lol, couldn't make it up) they cost him two rounds on the judges cards. That's two rounds MORE than the five middleweights you mentioned could manage to win between them.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alpha
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Originally Posted by
Spicoli
His skill speaks for itself, he's tremendous. But I need to see him face more adversity and pressure, simply see more. Every fighter on the list can be hacked apart if based on competition. He lost to Salido. Martinez arguably also lost to Salido rematch. Can anyone name unranked Russells most impressive 'huge fight' victory prior to facing Loma? I'm still wondering when Walters actually quit in that fight, was it on his stool and after a couple rounds of being bedazzled. Sosa had no business there and clearly lost to Walters. All a guy can do is dominate his opponents and it becomes a double edge sword. I believe Crawford has shown just as much if not more adjustment in a ring when breaking down his opponent and he actually had to work for and earn his professional network spot and platform.
That's what I'm saying apart from Walters who was possibly #1 at 126 Loma hasn't really fought the best in his division(s). I doubt Russell was ranked and if he was it was bottom half. Martinez and Sosa were not at the top. Ward stepped up a division to fight Kov; considered the best at 175. I thought Kov won. Gonzalez has been in with the best of 4 divisions and should still be undefeated. Crawford beat Postol who was considered the #2 and biggest challenge in the division. Garcia holds wins over Salido, Martinez and took out Zlaticanin who was considered the #2 guy at 135 (and who Linares had arguably avoided) making Garcia a 3 weight champion. I understand the buzz and watching Loma fight it is hard to deny those skills but personally I feel many are getting ahead of themselves.
That's not even taking into account a guy like Shinsuke Yamanaka. Even Inoue's record is arguably better than Loma's. Rigo ain't done sh-t lately but at least he beat a P4P guy in Donaire.
"Crawford beat Postol who was regarded no.2" - This is where ranking fighters from different divisions by who beat whom becomes a farce. Just because Postol was rated no.2 at 140 it doesn't mean he was realistically better than the no.10 ranked featherweight or no.12 middleweight or no.5 cruiserweight etc.
What made Postol no.2? He beat a "shot" Matthysse. He was no.2 because the division is really weak compared to others.
In fact Crawford's record is really weak for a P4P guy. Garcia's isn't much better. You see.. start ripping apart fighters records, all of a sudden everyone is crap (;D). Loma's wins stack up with anything Crawford has done.
So Matthysse was shot now? I'm sure he was the fav going in? The fight with Crawford was a unification and they were considered the 2 best in the division. Sure the division may have been weak according to you but 126 wasn't much better. Crawford has been considered the lineal champ at both 135 and 140. Garcia holds a win over the guy that beat Loma and beat the other guy (Martinez) who you rate as one of Loma's best 3. He was also considered lineal at 126. Probably would have been at 130 as well had he not had the layoff. You said you have him clear at #1. That's fine you are entitled to your opinion. I'm just listing reasons as to why I would rate other fighters ahead of him. The cool thing is we have all these fighters that we can include in the debate and many of them are challenging themselves. Ward & Kov are set to go at it again. Crawford is taking on Diaz. Gonzalez will potentially rematch Cuardas or Wangek. Garcia looks on a collision course with Linares. Good times ahead.
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Re: Vasyl Lomachenko is P4P #1
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Originally Posted by
Gandalf
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Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
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Originally Posted by
Gandalf
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Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
I'm not a big fan of p4p nonsense , and Loma has a fair shout , but to say Ward and Kovalev weren't impressive is not only unfair, but pretty ridiculous.
You have to take quality of opposition into consideration and basically 2 of the the top 3 were fighting each other. You could look at it a different way and say Ward and Kov were both impressive, and Ward beat a top 2 or 3 P4p guy so should be no.1 ? And Kov was an unlucky loser against the no.1 perhaps?
I disagree, I think Ward and Kovalev were unimpresive. They are both very limited fighters. The only unlimited fighter is someone who can throw a hundred punches a round and not get tired like Calzaghe. Even when slowed against someone like Hopkins he still throws and lands a lot more. Kovalev is a 40 punches a round guy and breathes heavy doing it and and Ward is even less active and clinches to get through it.
No fighter is perfect, but ward is in no way a limited fighter. Kovalev has his flaws sure but he is very good.
Is calzaghe the best fighter ever in your eyes?
Unbeatable really. A machine like no other. Only his hands could stop him and they helped him to evolve perfection.
I have no response:rolleyes:
