Lets end the Mike Tyson debate

[bradlee180]

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

[Beanflicker]

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

[greynotsoold]

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

Then why wasn't shane mosley the best ever?
In boxing, it is still all about being ring smart and courageous (because to be a great fighter, to put it all together, you dare punches, go to them and let them miss by a hair) Big muscles don't give you big balls or big brains.

[IamInuit]

I don't believe that drugs adds much to a fighter. Fighting is different from other athletics.
There's already tremendous variables in every fight. In combat-sports, I think the cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs, takes liberties in the ring and in negotiations to try to get an edge.

That's crazy and niave. Shit that makes you stronger, faster, and gives you more stamina (EPO) OF COURSE will add to a fighter.

Then why wasn't shane mosley the best ever?
In boxing, it is still all about being ring smart and courageous (because to be a great fighter, to put it all together, you dare punches, go to them and let them miss by a hair) Big muscles don't give you big balls or big brains.

Because most other people were doing them no doubt.I'm on the fence on this one because there are and have been fighters in the past and to a lesser extent today where steroids wont make a difference in the outcome. In an odd way that may be why they take them.They simply have no shot without them.

If they improve bat rotation, pitch speed and distance coverage by a short stop then they will improve power, hand speed and reflexes in boxing. Is that enough at the highest level? As you say probably not which makes boxing unique among sports.

[bradlee180]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

[cambay411]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

No one said shit about JMM being on roids until he came out for the last Pac fight shredded. And what a coincidence, he finally got the ko.

[cambay411]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

Morrison wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Lennox.
Vargas wasn't a cream of the crop fighter De La Hoya
Vinny Pazienza wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Roy Jones.
Sonnen wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like Silva
Sean Sherk wasn't a cream of the crop fighter like BJ Penn.

Most of these guys wouldn't have made it to that level without roids.

So where does roids come into the picture when it comes to cream vs cream?

[Mr140]

It does not because most of the cream is on the shit anyway i mean if all these people been using for so long never been caught. How are we to know that they never use if they never got caught during a fight. All the people were most caught after words not during or before the fight so shit hard to say right.

[Boxer4life]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

[El Kabong]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

You left out Mariusz Wach who also tried to use a glove that had padding removed from it...but that's cool.

[IamInuit]

Morrison was on the steroids, but he was never gonna beat Lennox.
Vargas was on them, but De La Hoya showed the class difference.
Vinny Pazienza was never going to beat Roy Jones.
Sonnen was on them, but Anderson Silva showed why Anderson's one of the best in MMA.
Sean Sherk was never going to beat a guy like BJ Penn.

Accusations have been flying at Juan Manuel Marquez, but the man's a Great fighter and has been Pacquiao's Achilles' heel all along. Marquez had landed the right hand all along too, just not solidly. That last fight, he finally landed it perfectly and Paquiao ran into it.

The cream rises to the top even if the opponent uses drugs to try to gain an advantage.

the thing is without roids, marquez would not be able to knock him out, no matter how clean he landed his right hand

I do not agree. Marquez had three previous fights and tons of practise time to land that perfect right hand. You get that many chances at a guy that fights the exact same way every time out and is a sucker for the right hand counter or lead and it will come and it did.

[cambay411]

Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

[bradlee180]

Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

Boxing isn't baseball, $#!tbrains...

[cambay411]

Ask Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones if PED's can make the difference between good and great.

Ok could Holyfield have beat Bowe in there second fight without roids? Ask an ATG, Hoyfield, if roids mean the difference between good and great.

I love Holyfield but if you research there is some serious evidence against him.

[Mr140]

Yea camboy but your missing some points your self if Holyfeild was using steroids his whole career which is like a 26 year career and never tested positive for a fight. So if a guy that high profile was never caught in or before or after a fight then it does not really matter because if he can get away with it then everyone damn near can. I think most people today are on roids or other forums of it and have been for a long time. So when the top guys face one another it does not matter who using because good chance both are so who really cares.