Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?

[brucelee]

So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.

The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds.

Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.

Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?

If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.

The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.

Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.

But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?

I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.

But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.

Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.

He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.

Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.

Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.

Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.

Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.

You've said it well Bilbo. I give the number 1 ranking to Campbell and number 2 to pacquaio. Jmm would be number 3.

No way would it go to Marquez.

[rjj tszyu]

That right there is my argument Galaxy Pacquio DID beat the man only 6 months ago

That's right but at 130 & for the vacant Ring championship because they were rated at #1 & #2.

So how exactly does that make Pacquiao the champion at 135?

I'm not arguing that Pacquiao isn't arguably the better fighter but he ain't the champion! You can't rank #1 contender over the champion its just not logical!

I don't know if you follow rugby but over here in NZ its our national sport. Now South Africa are the world champions but the All Blacks are the best team in the world & have been considered the best for over a decade. But unfortunately no matter how much I dislike the fact the AB's have not been champs since '86!

Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!

The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.

Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine'

In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.

Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.

So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!

Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.

In a perfect world the 3 major players (IBF, WBC and WBA) would all want their champions to fight each other so we could have a unified division. But wouldn't that leave a fight between Pac and Campbell and have absolutely nothing to do with Marquez?

So to me that would be slightly unfair. Casamayor didn't hold any titles due to his inactivity not because he was ever beaten. It kind of reminds me of when Kostya Tszyu was stripped by the WBA and WBC when he was injured. Luckily the IBF were quite sensible and left him their champ as he was clearly the man at 140lbs until Hatton beat him which made him the man. But now Hatton hasn't been beaten at 140 but only holds the IBO which doesn't mean shit to me but to me has got to be regarded as the MAN at 140. It's ironic that he's fighting for his own belt that he never lost next time out. Sorry for all this talk but it just annoys me the way the alphabets go about doing things nowadays.

I made this poll and voted NO, but now the more I have thought about it if I could vote again I would say YES because Marquez is the man who beat the man and anything that happened between Pac and JMM happened in another division. Pac must now beat Marquez at the division to become the man IMO!

[Pugilistic]

I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez.

They definitely need to fight each other.

BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!

Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?

That makes no sense to me at all.

That's why I went with......

1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!

I can't wait to see how this falls out.

I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.

I have Pac third on the rating at lightweight below Campbell and Marquez because although he holds a win over Marquez it was in the weightclass below and Marquez fought and beat the lineal champ Casamayor where Pacquiao beat a title holder David Diaz.

Marquez is more accomplished at Lightweight than Pac and Pacquiao being number 1 on the P4P list should have no effect on his ranking at lightweight. I currently have Campbell as the top guy at 135 because he beat the number 1 guy in the division Juan Diaz, Diaz was the man to beat and he did it which should make him number 1 and Marquez should be second as he beat the linear champ in Casamayor and Pac is third because he beat the Wbc champ David Diaz.

[Galaxy]

That right there is my argument Galaxy Pacquio DID beat the man only 6 months ago

That's right but at 130 & for the vacant Ring championship because they were rated at #1 & #2.

So how exactly does that make Pacquiao the champion at 135?

I'm not arguing that Pacquiao isn't arguably the better fighter but he ain't the champion! You can't rank #1 contender over the champion its just not logical!

I don't know if you follow rugby but over here in NZ its our national sport. Now South Africa are the world champions but the All Blacks are the best team in the world & have been considered the best for over a decade. But unfortunately no matter how much I dislike the fact the AB's have not been champs since '86!

Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!

The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.

Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine'

In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.

Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.

So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!

Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.

Sorry Bilbo but the Ring championship has been around a hell of a lot longer than the alphabet fools! Ring mag created the rankings system & awarded championship belts since 1922!

I don't even recognize the alphabets. For you to say the Ring belt isn't a real title is fine cause that's your opinion but to myself & others the Ring belt is the only real championship & more prestigious than the ABC's! To me the alphabets aren't real! Anyone with enough money can create a sanctioning body so I can't see why you hold them in such high regard.

My reference to the AB's was to show that like Pacquiao they my be the best in the world but until they win the championship they're only #1 not the champions. South Africa will remain world champs until someone wins the next world cup just like Marquez will remain champion until he is beaten in the ring at 135!

[Kev]

That's right but at 130 & for the vacant Ring championship because they were rated at #1 & #2.

So how exactly does that make Pacquiao the champion at 135?

I'm not arguing that Pacquiao isn't arguably the better fighter but he ain't the champion! You can't rank #1 contender over the champion its just not logical!

I don't know if you follow rugby but over here in NZ its our national sport. Now South Africa are the world champions but the All Blacks are the best team in the world & have been considered the best for over a decade. But unfortunately no matter how much I dislike the fact the AB's have not been champs since '86!

Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!

The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.

Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine'

In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.

Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.

So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!

Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.

Sorry Bilbo but the Ring championship has been around a hell of a lot longer than the alphabet fools! Ring mag created the rankings system & awarded championship belts since 1922!

I don't even recognize the alphabets. For you to say the Ring belt isn't a real title is fine cause that's your opinion but to myself & others the Ring belt is the only real championship & more prestigious than the ABC's! To me the alphabets aren't real! Anyone with enough money can create a sanctioning body so I can't see why you hold them in such high regard.

My reference to the AB's was to show that like Pacquiao they my be the best in the world but until they win the championship they're only #1 not the champions. South Africa will remain world champs until someone wins the next world cup just like Marquez will remain champion until he is beaten in the ring at 135!

Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought.

The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.

your analogy makes no sense as your arguing that South Africa are world champs because they won the official world title crown. Well Pacquaio holds an official world title crown but Marquez doesn't.

Furthermore Pacquaio beat Marquez only 6 months ago.

I agree that according to the Ring rankings Marquez should be champ, we are not arguing that at all, he's the Ring champ no question, he beat the linear champ, BUT in reality Pacquaio and Campbell are above him because A) they are both genuine world champions and hold world title belts whereas Marquez does not, and Campbell beat the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz. Pacquaio is the p4p worlds best AND beat Marquez so he the number 1 lightweight.

Again my rankings are NOT meant to be in accord with the Ring rankings but with reality.

1. Paquiao
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

[Galaxy]

Bilbo don't make me laugh... there's nothing genuine about the alphabet soup!

I could create my own body called Galaxy's Boxing Council & it would have more meaning than those so called paper titles you so cherish!

The alphabets aren't sh*t!

Marquez is the champion & Pacquiao & Campbell are contenders!

The reality is your only adding to the chaos! What other sport has 3 or 4 champions? Strip a title here, create a title there, 3 champs in a division here, dead boxers moving up ratings there... & it goes on & on.

You gotta share whatever it is your smoking cause you can't be serious & say all this with a straight face!!!

Genuine give me a break, the alphabets are a joke!

[Lance Uppercut]

Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought.

The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.

Why is the Ring Belt not a title. It was a real title when Jack Dempsey defended it. The World alphabet belts have only been around since 1962, before that it WAS only the Ring title that granted true World recognition.

What constitutes a real title? Does the organization have to rob the fighters of portions of their purses for it to be real? Does the organization have to rank unjust challengers at their number one contenders for it to be real?

If the Ring started charging sanctioning fees and ranking Gary Locket as their number 1 contender then would you recognize it as a real title?

[Galaxy]

Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought.

The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.

Why is the Ring Belt not a title. It was a real title when Jack Dempsey defended it. The World alphabet belts have only been around since 1962, before that it WAS only the Ring title that granted true World recognition.

What constitutes a real title? Does the organization have to rob the fighters of portions of their purses for it to be real? Does the organization have to rank unjust challengers at their number one contenders for it to be real?

If the Ring started charging sanctioning fees and ranking Gary Locket as their number 1 contender then would you recognize it as a real title?

Nice one Lance. Totally agree. If Bilbo wants to follow their mess that his choice but to say the Ring championship isn't real is just not logical! It is more real than the stripped paper alphabet titles!!!

[leftylee]

lol and a completely impartial and unbiased view it is too

Indeed since if you just stop at the completed match-ups and won't proceed with the projected future match-ups, PAC is already leading the pack...
.

1. Juan Manuel Marquez
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Nate Campbell

How on earth do you have Nate Campbell number 3 ? Pure bias in favour to Marquez right there Adam. Campbell beat the man of the division, Juan Diaz and holds 3 of the major 4 belts. Joel Casamayor shouldn't have been the ring champion as he got a massive gift over Santa Cruz. He then looked shitt against Michael Katsidis and was merely shot coming into the Marquez fight. Marquez should be number 3 behind Campbell and Pac in 2nd place.

[leftylee]

Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!

The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.

Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine'

In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.

Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.

So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!

Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.

Sorry Bilbo but the Ring championship has been around a hell of a lot longer than the alphabet fools! Ring mag created the rankings system & awarded championship belts since 1922!

I don't even recognize the alphabets. For you to say the Ring belt isn't a real title is fine cause that's your opinion but to myself & others the Ring belt is the only real championship & more prestigious than the ABC's! To me the alphabets aren't real! Anyone with enough money can create a sanctioning body so I can't see why you hold them in such high regard.

My reference to the AB's was to show that like Pacquiao they my be the best in the world but until they win the championship they're only #1 not the champions. South Africa will remain world champs until someone wins the next world cup just like Marquez will remain champion until he is beaten in the ring at 135!

Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought.

The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.

your analogy makes no sense as your arguing that South Africa are world champs because they won the official world title crown. Well Pacquaio holds an official world title crown but Marquez doesn't.

Furthermore Pacquaio beat Marquez only 6 months ago.

I agree that according to the Ring rankings Marquez should be champ, we are not arguing that at all, he's the Ring champ no question, he beat the linear champ, BUT in reality Pacquaio and Campbell are above him because A) they are both genuine world champions and hold world title belts whereas Marquez does not, and Campbell beat the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz. Pacquaio is the p4p worlds best AND beat Marquez so he the number 1 lightweight.

Again my rankings are NOT meant to be in accord with the Ring rankings but with reality.

1. Paquiao
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

So in your opinion, is Joe Calzaghe a two weight world champion ?

[Galaxy]

Sorry Bilbo but the Ring championship has been around a hell of a lot longer than the alphabet fools! Ring mag created the rankings system & awarded championship belts since 1922!

I don't even recognize the alphabets. For you to say the Ring belt isn't a real title is fine cause that's your opinion but to myself & others the Ring belt is the only real championship & more prestigious than the ABC's! To me the alphabets aren't real! Anyone with enough money can create a sanctioning body so I can't see why you hold them in such high regard.

My reference to the AB's was to show that like Pacquiao they my be the best in the world but until they win the championship they're only #1 not the champions. South Africa will remain world champs until someone wins the next world cup just like Marquez will remain champion until he is beaten in the ring at 135!

Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought.

The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.

your analogy makes no sense as your arguing that South Africa are world champs because they won the official world title crown. Well Pacquaio holds an official world title crown but Marquez doesn't.

Furthermore Pacquaio beat Marquez only 6 months ago.

I agree that according to the Ring rankings Marquez should be champ, we are not arguing that at all, he's the Ring champ no question, he beat the linear champ, BUT in reality Pacquaio and Campbell are above him because A) they are both genuine world champions and hold world title belts whereas Marquez does not, and Campbell beat the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz. Pacquaio is the p4p worlds best AND beat Marquez so he the number 1 lightweight.

Again my rankings are NOT meant to be in accord with the Ring rankings but with reality.

1. Paquiao
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

So in your opinion, is Joe Calzaghe a two weight world champion ?

Do you consider Calzaghe a double champ? Cause I sure as hell do! But if you do you your contradicting yourself... you can't recognize Calzaghe but not Casamayor. I agree the Santa Cruz decision was rotten but that's the official result & history is littered with bad decisions. The fact is Casamayor entered the Ring as champion!

[leftylee]

Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought.

The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.

your analogy makes no sense as your arguing that South Africa are world champs because they won the official world title crown. Well Pacquaio holds an official world title crown but Marquez doesn't.

Furthermore Pacquaio beat Marquez only 6 months ago.

I agree that according to the Ring rankings Marquez should be champ, we are not arguing that at all, he's the Ring champ no question, he beat the linear champ, BUT in reality Pacquaio and Campbell are above him because A) they are both genuine world champions and hold world title belts whereas Marquez does not, and Campbell beat the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz. Pacquaio is the p4p worlds best AND beat Marquez so he the number 1 lightweight.

Again my rankings are NOT meant to be in accord with the Ring rankings but with reality.

1. Paquiao
2. Campbell
3. Marquez

So in your opinion, is Joe Calzaghe a two weight world champion ?

Do you consider Calzaghe a double champ? Cause I sure as hell do! But if you do you your contradicting yourself... you can't recognize Calzaghe but not Casamayor. I agree the Santa Cruz decision was rotten but that's the official result & history is littered with bad decisions. The fact is Casamayor entered the Ring as champion!

How do I contradict myself ? EVERYBODY bar 2 of those crack filled judges knew Santa Cruz won that fight. It wasn't close. So yes he was the champ according to the Ring ratings. But people know how shot he looked in his past 2 fights. The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him. Therefore Nate Campbell never went above him even though he beat Juan Diaz. The number 1 in many peoples eyes bar the Ring mag. Fukk The Ring mag.

And actually I don't consider Calzaghe a two weight world champ cuz he ain't won a WBC, WBA, WBO or IBF title at light-heavyweight. Just my opinion

[Fenster]

It's surprising hardcore fans, guys that spend so much time on a site like this, are still dazzled and conned by the silly alphabet titles.

The great man Britkid is turning in his grave.

[Galaxy]

So in your opinion, is Joe Calzaghe a two weight world champion ?

Do you consider Calzaghe a double champ? Cause I sure as hell do! But if you do you your contradicting yourself... you can't recognize Calzaghe but not Casamayor. I agree the Santa Cruz decision was rotten but that's the official result & history is littered with bad decisions. The fact is Casamayor entered the Ring as champion!

How do I contradict myself ? EVERYBODY bar 2 of those crack filled judges knew Santa Cruz won that fight. It wasn't close. So yes he was the champ according to the Ring ratings. But people know how shot he looked in his past 2 fights. The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him. Therefore Nate Campbell never went above him even though he beat Juan Diaz. The number 1 in many peoples eyes bar the Ring mag. Fukk The Ring mag.

And actually I don't consider Calzaghe a two weight world champ cuz he ain't won a WBC, WBA, WBO or IBF title at light-heavyweight. Just my opinion

The Ring didn't judge the fight just followed the official result! As I've said before the best fighter in the division is not always the champion or the title would never change hands. Just because Nate beat Juan didn't make him champion. Look at Liston he was avoided for years by Patterson & considered the best fighter in the division but he only became champion by beating the champion! Now how is that system stupid? Whats stupid is being given a paper belt & having 3 or 4 other paper belt holders all claiming to be champ... but thats just my opinion!!!

[leftylee]

Do you consider Calzaghe a double champ? Cause I sure as hell do! But if you do you your contradicting yourself... you can't recognize Calzaghe but not Casamayor. I agree the Santa Cruz decision was rotten but that's the official result & history is littered with bad decisions. The fact is Casamayor entered the Ring as champion!

How do I contradict myself ? EVERYBODY bar 2 of those crack filled judges knew Santa Cruz won that fight. It wasn't close. So yes he was the champ according to the Ring ratings. But people know how shot he looked in his past 2 fights. The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him. Therefore Nate Campbell never went above him even though he beat Juan Diaz. The number 1 in many peoples eyes bar the Ring mag. Fukk The Ring mag.

And actually I don't consider Calzaghe a two weight world champ cuz he ain't won a WBC, WBA, WBO or IBF title at light-heavyweight. Just my opinion

The Ring didn't judge the fight just followed the official result! As I've said before the best fighter in the division is not always the champion or the title would never change hands. Just because Nate beat Juan didn't make him champion. Look at Liston he was avoided for years by Patterson & considered the best fighter in the division but he only became champion by beating the champion! Now how is that system stupid? Whats stupid is being given a paper belt & having 3 or 4 other paper belt holders all claiming to be champ... but thats just my opinion!!!

Why doesn't it ? Cuz he never beat the lineal champ Conamayor ? He beat Juan Diaz, the number 1 Undisputed world champion of the division. Therefore Nate becomes the Undisputed champ and number 1 of the division.