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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
One question here, will DelaHoya become the no. 1 P4P if he beats PAC come Dec. 6 ?
I think the answer is NO but Oscar can make a spin on it by beating the man seating on the P4P throne... ;)
.
The answer is no but I have no idea what this has to do with a the lightweight championship. P4P is purely mythical rankings & is based on a whole career of achievement at different weights & against different opponents.
When Douglas beat Tyson I can't name one person who rated Buster as #1 P4P but he was still the world heavyweight champion!
It has nothing to do with the LW championship... but I'm guessing Hoya might use the phrase "I'm now the man because I beat the man"... ;)
Sorry I thought this thread was about the lightweights!
DLH could say that & I'm sure his fans will run with it, but most knowledgeable fans know that the majority of the time a good big man will defeat a good little man. DLH has huge advantages coming into this fight & I think he would be very foolish to make those claims if victorious!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
I agree completely with what your saying Galaxy and have already acknowledged that Marquez as champ is the 'technically correct' decision as regards to the Ring rankings.
But we have moved on from that and are trying to discuss how 'in reality according to actual performance, achievments, merit,' etc the rankings should be ordered.
For me there is no question that Pacquiao right now should be number 1 as he is the p4p number 1 fighter in the sport and beat Marquez in the past year.
Campbell beat undoubtedly the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz, an undefeated fighter who was on the verge of unifying all the belts, so he is at number 2.
Marquez has made a great debut at lightweight in KO'ing Casamayor, but he lost to Pacquiao last time out and by rights Casa shouldn't even have been champ after losing almost every round on everybody's scorecards against Santa Cruz and also almost getting beat up by the mediocre Katsidis who Juan Diaz dominated.
So Marquez for me is at number 3.
Now I repeat, these are not the Ring rankings but what I believe are the most accurate rankings for the current state of the lightweight division.
I absolutely agree that the Ring magazine will almost certainly put Marquez at number 1 as they follow the lineage of titles closely. For them this is the correct decision.
but the fact remains that in a practical sense Marquez's win over an aged and clearly past it Casa isn't enough on its own to lift him above Campbells dominating performance over the 3 times unbeaten champ Juan Diaz.
He also lost to Manny last time out and that coupled with the fact that Manny is universally considered the p4p best fighter in the world means he ranks below them both.
NOT the Ring rankings, but the most accurate rankings.
Hope that clears it up :)
I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!
So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't.
Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!
Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!
Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.
Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!
That right there is my argument Galaxy Pacquio DID beat the man only 6 months ago ;)
That's right but at 130 & for the vacant Ring championship because they were rated at #1 & #2.
So how exactly does that make Pacquiao the champion at 135?
I'm not arguing that Pacquiao isn't arguably the better fighter but he ain't the champion! You can't rank #1 contender over the champion its just not logical!
I don't know if you follow rugby but over here in NZ its our national sport. Now South Africa are the world champions but the All Blacks are the best team in the world & have been considered the best for over a decade. But unfortunately no matter how much I dislike the fact the AB's have not been champs since '86!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
I agree Bilbo that Casa did not deserve the W over Santa Cruz but bad decisions are nothing new to the game. So unfortunately we have to live with it. I can name dozens of fights where the champion got the nod when he didn't deserve it... Ali had a few himself, but the fact is he remained champ!
So the question for me is how do you rate someone higher than the champ? In the world I live in with reality you can't. Sure someone might be better but until they prove it by beating the champ they're only the #1 contender!
Now Pacquiao is definitely #1 P4P & arguably the best fighter in the division & Campbell put in a great performance over Diaz & also has a case as the best fighter in the division. But they are not the champion, theres a difference!
Look at Sonny Liston or Marvin Hagler they were considered the best fighters in the division but until they beat the champ they were only the #1 contender.
Thats the way it is! You have to beat the man to be the man!
That right there is my argument Galaxy Pacquio DID beat the man only 6 months ago ;)
That's right but at 130 & for the vacant Ring championship because they were rated at #1 & #2.
So how exactly does that make Pacquiao the champion at 135?
I'm not arguing that Pacquiao isn't arguably the better fighter but he ain't the champion! You can't rank #1 contender over the champion its just not logical!
I don't know if you follow rugby but over here in NZ its our national sport. Now South Africa are the world champions but the All Blacks are the best team in the world & have been considered the best for over a decade. But unfortunately no matter how much I dislike the fact the AB's have not been champs since '86!
Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!
The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.
Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine' ;)
In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.
Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.
So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!
Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DAWGSWIN
I voted no, but I understand the reasoning. Based on the results of their fights I think Pac should be #1. I know they were close fights, but decisions mean something. BTW, I don't won't to hijack this thread, but I didn't see their second fight as controversial as some writers (Dan Rafael) seem to suggest. It was a split decision and the judges cards were not out of whack. Anyone agree or disagree?
Agree there mate.. there's no robbery in the pac-jmm2.. it's either way.. people seem to forget that its a very very close fight that the only deciding factor is the one that made the difference which is the knockdown.. you can't argue about punchstat coz its not like there are 100-300 punches diffrence.. if you saw the Calderon-Cazares2 fight you know what im saying about punchstat.. Calderon only landed somewhere around 90 jab & power punches while Cazares landed about around 110 jab & power punches and the outcome is Calderon the winner. Hope you guys get my point.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
I voted yes as joel was classed as the linear champ after beating Corrales.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.
The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. :puke: a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds. :puke:
Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.
Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?
If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.
The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.
Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.
But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?
I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.
But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.
Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.
He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.
Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.
Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.
Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.
Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.
You've said it well Bilbo. I give the number 1 ranking to Campbell and number 2 to pacquaio. Jmm would be number 3.
No way would it go to Marquez.:cool:
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
That right there is my argument Galaxy Pacquio DID beat the man only 6 months ago ;)
That's right but at 130 & for the vacant Ring championship because they were rated at #1 & #2.
So how exactly does that make Pacquiao the champion at 135?
I'm not arguing that Pacquiao isn't arguably the better fighter but he ain't the champion! You can't rank #1 contender over the champion its just not logical!
I don't know if you follow rugby but over here in NZ its our national sport. Now South Africa are the world champions but the All Blacks are the best team in the world & have been considered the best for over a decade. But unfortunately no matter how much I dislike the fact the AB's have not been champs since '86!
Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!
The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.
Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine' ;)
In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.
Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.
So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!
Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.
In a perfect world the 3 major players (IBF, WBC and WBA) would all want their champions to fight each other so we could have a unified division. But wouldn't that leave a fight between Pac and Campbell and have absolutely nothing to do with Marquez?
So to me that would be slightly unfair. Casamayor didn't hold any titles due to his inactivity not because he was ever beaten. It kind of reminds me of when Kostya Tszyu was stripped by the WBA and WBC when he was injured. Luckily the IBF were quite sensible and left him their champ as he was clearly the man at 140lbs until Hatton beat him which made him the man. But now Hatton hasn't been beaten at 140 but only holds the IBO which doesn't mean shit to me but to me has got to be regarded as the MAN at 140. It's ironic that he's fighting for his own belt that he never lost next time out. Sorry for all this talk but it just annoys me the way the alphabets go about doing things nowadays.
I made this poll and voted NO, but now the more I have thought about it if I could vote again I would say YES because Marquez is the man who beat the man and anything that happened between Pac and JMM happened in another division. Pac must now beat Marquez at the division to become the man IMO!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pugilistic
I have decided that the number one spot at lightweight is tied between Campbell and Marquez. ;)
They definitely need to fight each other.
BUT you have to consider also that Manny is the universally recognised p4p number 1 fighter on the planet and holds a win over Marquez just two fights ago!
Can you have the p4p best fighter on the planet according to every ranking body behind a fighter he already beat in the last 12 months in a divisional ranking?
That makes no sense to me at all.
That's why I went with......
1. Pacquaio
2. Campbell
3. Marquez
But really all three have equal claim to the throne. There hasn't been this much controversy since the death of Edward the Confessor when Harold Godwinson, William the Conqueror and Harold Hardrada all battled for the English crown!
I can't wait to see how this falls out.
I reckon Pacquiao will win out if he makes the fights, although chances are he'll go with Oscar first leaving Marquez and Campbell to decide things first.
I have Pac third on the rating at lightweight below Campbell and Marquez because although he holds a win over Marquez it was in the weightclass below and Marquez fought and beat the lineal champ Casamayor where Pacquiao beat a title holder David Diaz.
Marquez is more accomplished at Lightweight than Pac and Pacquiao being number 1 on the P4P list should have no effect on his ranking at lightweight. I currently have Campbell as the top guy at 135 because he beat the number 1 guy in the division Juan Diaz, Diaz was the man to beat and he did it which should make him number 1 and Marquez should be second as he beat the linear champ in Casamayor and Pac is third because he beat the Wbc champ David Diaz.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
That right there is my argument Galaxy Pacquio DID beat the man only 6 months ago ;)
That's right but at 130 & for the vacant Ring championship because they were rated at #1 & #2.
So how exactly does that make Pacquiao the champion at 135?
I'm not arguing that Pacquiao isn't arguably the better fighter but he ain't the champion! You can't rank #1 contender over the champion its just not logical!
I don't know if you follow rugby but over here in NZ its our national sport. Now South Africa are the world champions but the All Blacks are the best team in the world & have been considered the best for over a decade. But unfortunately no matter how much I dislike the fact the AB's have not been champs since '86!
Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!
The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.
Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine' ;)
In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.
Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.
So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!
Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.
Sorry Bilbo but the Ring championship has been around a hell of a lot longer than the alphabet fools! Ring mag created the rankings system & awarded championship belts since 1922!
I don't even recognize the alphabets. For you to say the Ring belt isn't a real title is fine cause that's your opinion but to myself & others the Ring belt is the only real championship & more prestigious than the ABC's! To me the alphabets aren't real! Anyone with enough money can create a sanctioning body so I can't see why you hold them in such high regard.
My reference to the AB's was to show that like Pacquiao they my be the best in the world but until they win the championship they're only #1 not the champions. South Africa will remain world champs until someone wins the next world cup just like Marquez will remain champion until he is beaten in the ring at 135!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
That's right but at 130 & for the vacant Ring championship because they were rated at #1 & #2.
So how exactly does that make Pacquiao the champion at 135?
I'm not arguing that Pacquiao isn't arguably the better fighter but he ain't the champion! You can't rank #1 contender over the champion its just not logical!
I don't know if you follow rugby but over here in NZ its our national sport. Now South Africa are the world champions but the All Blacks are the best team in the world & have been considered the best for over a decade. But unfortunately no matter how much I dislike the fact the AB's have not been champs since '86!
Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!
The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.
Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine' ;)
In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.
Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.
So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!
Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.
Sorry Bilbo but the Ring championship has been around a hell of a lot longer than the alphabet fools! Ring mag created the rankings system & awarded championship belts since 1922!
I don't even recognize the alphabets. For you to say the Ring belt isn't a real title is fine cause that's your opinion but to myself & others the Ring belt is the only real championship & more prestigious than the ABC's! To me the alphabets aren't real! Anyone with enough money can create a sanctioning body so I can't see why you hold them in such high regard.
My reference to the AB's was to show that like Pacquiao they my be the best in the world but until they win the championship they're only #1 not the champions.
South Africa will remain world champs until someone wins the next world cup just like Marquez will remain champion until he is beaten in the ring at 135!
Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought. :rolleyes:
The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.
your analogy makes no sense as your arguing that South Africa are world champs because they won the official world title crown. Well Pacquaio holds an official world title crown but Marquez doesn't.
Furthermore Pacquaio beat Marquez only 6 months ago.
I agree that according to the Ring rankings Marquez should be champ, we are not arguing that at all, he's the Ring champ no question, he beat the linear champ, BUT in reality Pacquaio and Campbell are above him because A) they are both genuine world champions and hold world title belts whereas Marquez does not, and Campbell beat the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz. Pacquaio is the p4p worlds best AND beat Marquez so he the number 1 lightweight.
Again my rankings are NOT meant to be in accord with the Ring rankings but with reality.
1. Paquiao
2. Campbell
3. Marquez
;)
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Bilbo don't make me laugh... there's nothing genuine about the alphabet soup!
I could create my own body called Galaxy's Boxing Council & it would have more meaning than those so called paper titles you so cherish!
The alphabets aren't sh*t!
Marquez is the champion & Pacquiao & Campbell are contenders!
The reality is your only adding to the chaos! What other sport has 3 or 4 champions? Strip a title here, create a title there, 3 champs in a division here, dead boxers moving up ratings there... & it goes on & on.
You gotta share whatever it is your smoking cause you can't be serious & say all this with a straight face!!!
Genuine give me a break, the alphabets are a joke!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought. :rolleyes:
The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.
Why is the Ring Belt not a title. It was a real title when Jack Dempsey defended it. The World alphabet belts have only been around since 1962, before that it WAS only the Ring title that granted true World recognition.
What constitutes a real title? Does the organization have to rob the fighters of portions of their purses for it to be real? Does the organization have to rank unjust challengers at their number one contenders for it to be real?
If the Ring started charging sanctioning fees and ranking Gary Locket as their number 1 contender then would you recognize it as a real title?
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lance Uppercut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought. :rolleyes:
The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.
Why is the Ring Belt not a title. It was a real title when Jack Dempsey defended it. The World alphabet belts have only been around since 1962, before that it WAS only the Ring title that granted true World recognition.
What constitutes a real title? Does the organization have to rob the fighters of portions of their purses for it to be real? Does the organization have to rank unjust challengers at their number one contenders for it to be real?
If the Ring started charging sanctioning fees and ranking Gary Locket as their number 1 contender then would you recognize it as a real title?
Nice one Lance. Totally agree. If Bilbo wants to follow their mess that his choice but to say the Ring championship isn't real is just not logical! It is more real than the stripped paper alphabet titles!!!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaddoBoxer
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
lol and a completely impartial and unbiased view it is too ;D
Indeed ;D since if you just stop at the completed match-ups and won't proceed with the projected future match-ups, PAC is already leading the pack... ;D
.
1. Juan Manuel Marquez
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Nate Campbell
How on earth do you have Nate Campbell number 3 ? Pure bias in favour to Marquez right there Adam. Campbell beat the man of the division, Juan Diaz and holds 3 of the major 4 belts. Joel Casamayor shouldn't have been the ring champion as he got a massive gift over Santa Cruz. He then looked shitt against Michael Katsidis and was merely shot coming into the Marquez fight. Marquez should be number 3 behind Campbell and Pac in 2nd place.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Your argument falls short though here anyway Galaxy because the Ring belt isn't a real title either!
The Ring title is the equivilent of the All Blacks being considered the best team in the world, it's just a subjective ranking system it's not a real belt.
Katsidis said it best last year when he said he wanted Juan Diaz because he was the lightweight champ. When the interviewer said that Casamayor was the Ring champ Kats replied, 'yes but that's just a magazine' ;)
In reality, and I keep going on about this, Marquez is merely the interim WBO champ whilst Paquaio holds the far more prestigious WBC belt.
Marquez may be the linear champ but in reality he doesn't even hold a real world title at 135.
So your comparison to the All Blacks actually works in reverse!
Casamayor was considered the liner champ, and Marquez bet him, but no title belt was on the line so in reality Marquez isn't even a world champ whereas Manny is the WBC lightweight champ.
Sorry Bilbo but the Ring championship has been around a hell of a lot longer than the alphabet fools! Ring mag created the rankings system & awarded championship belts since 1922!
I don't even recognize the alphabets. For you to say the Ring belt isn't a real title is fine cause that's your opinion but to myself & others the Ring belt is the only real championship & more prestigious than the ABC's! To me the alphabets aren't real! Anyone with enough money can create a sanctioning body so I can't see why you hold them in such high regard.
My reference to the AB's was to show that like Pacquiao they my be the best in the world but until they win the championship they're only #1 not the champions.
South Africa will remain world champs until someone wins the next world cup just like Marquez will remain champion until he is beaten in the ring at 135!
Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought. :rolleyes:
The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.
your analogy makes no sense as your arguing that South Africa are world champs because they won the official world title crown. Well Pacquaio holds an official world title crown but Marquez doesn't.
Furthermore Pacquaio beat Marquez only 6 months ago.
I agree that according to the Ring rankings Marquez should be champ, we are not arguing that at all, he's the Ring champ no question, he beat the linear champ, BUT in reality Pacquaio and Campbell are above him because A) they are both genuine world champions and hold world title belts whereas Marquez does not, and Campbell beat the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz. Pacquaio is the p4p worlds best AND beat Marquez so he the number 1 lightweight.
Again my rankings are NOT meant to be in accord with the Ring rankings but with reality.
1. Paquiao
2. Campbell
3. Marquez
;)
So in your opinion, is Joe Calzaghe a two weight world champion ?
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Sorry Bilbo but the Ring championship has been around a hell of a lot longer than the alphabet fools! Ring mag created the rankings system & awarded championship belts since 1922!
I don't even recognize the alphabets. For you to say the Ring belt isn't a real title is fine cause that's your opinion but to myself & others the Ring belt is the only real championship & more prestigious than the ABC's! To me the alphabets aren't real! Anyone with enough money can create a sanctioning body so I can't see why you hold them in such high regard.
My reference to the AB's was to show that like Pacquiao they my be the best in the world but until they win the championship they're only #1 not the champions. South Africa will remain world champs until someone wins the next world cup just like Marquez will remain champion until he is beaten in the ring at 135!
Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought. :rolleyes:
The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.
your analogy makes no sense as your arguing that South Africa are world champs because they won the official world title crown. Well Pacquaio holds an official world title crown but Marquez doesn't.
Furthermore Pacquaio beat Marquez only 6 months ago.
I agree that according to the Ring rankings Marquez should be champ, we are not arguing that at all, he's the Ring champ no question, he beat the linear champ, BUT in reality Pacquaio and Campbell are above him because A) they are both genuine world champions and hold world title belts whereas Marquez does not, and Campbell beat the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz. Pacquaio is the p4p worlds best AND beat Marquez so he the number 1 lightweight.
Again my rankings are NOT meant to be in accord with the Ring rankings but with reality.
1. Paquiao
2. Campbell
3. Marquez
;)
So in your opinion, is Joe Calzaghe a two weight world champion ?
Do you consider Calzaghe a double champ? Cause I sure as hell do! But if you do you your contradicting yourself... you can't recognize Calzaghe but not Casamayor. I agree the Santa Cruz decision was rotten but that's the official result & history is littered with bad decisions. The fact is Casamayor entered the Ring as champion!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Marquez is NOT a world champ at lightweight, Casa didn't have a belt when they fought. :rolleyes:
The Ring belt is NOT a world championship belt. You may rate it more highly than a genuine title belt but it is still NOT a world title belt.
your analogy makes no sense as your arguing that South Africa are world champs because they won the official world title crown. Well Pacquaio holds an official world title crown but Marquez doesn't.
Furthermore Pacquaio beat Marquez only 6 months ago.
I agree that according to the Ring rankings Marquez should be champ, we are not arguing that at all, he's the Ring champ no question, he beat the linear champ, BUT in reality Pacquaio and Campbell are above him because A) they are both genuine world champions and hold world title belts whereas Marquez does not, and Campbell beat the best lightweight in the division in Juan Diaz. Pacquaio is the p4p worlds best AND beat Marquez so he the number 1 lightweight.
Again my rankings are NOT meant to be in accord with the Ring rankings but with reality.
1. Paquiao
2. Campbell
3. Marquez
;)
So in your opinion, is Joe Calzaghe a two weight world champion ?
Do you consider Calzaghe a double champ? Cause I sure as hell do! But if you do you your contradicting yourself... you can't recognize Calzaghe but not Casamayor. I agree the Santa Cruz decision was rotten but that's the official result & history is littered with bad decisions. The fact is Casamayor entered the Ring as champion!
How do I contradict myself ? EVERYBODY bar 2 of those crack filled judges knew Santa Cruz won that fight. It wasn't close. So yes he was the champ according to the Ring ratings. But people know how shot he looked in his past 2 fights. The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him. Therefore Nate Campbell never went above him even though he beat Juan Diaz. The number 1 in many peoples eyes bar the Ring mag. Fukk The Ring mag.
And actually I don't consider Calzaghe a two weight world champ cuz he ain't won a WBC, WBA, WBO or IBF title at light-heavyweight. Just my opinion ;)
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
It's surprising hardcore fans, guys that spend so much time on a site like this, are still dazzled and conned by the silly alphabet titles.
The great man Britkid is turning in his grave. :-\
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
So in your opinion, is Joe Calzaghe a two weight world champion ?
Do you consider Calzaghe a double champ? Cause I sure as hell do! But if you do you your contradicting yourself... you can't recognize Calzaghe but not Casamayor. I agree the Santa Cruz decision was rotten but that's the official result & history is littered with bad decisions. The fact is Casamayor entered the Ring as champion!
How do I contradict myself ? EVERYBODY bar 2 of those crack filled judges knew Santa Cruz won that fight. It wasn't close. So yes he was the champ according to the Ring ratings. But people know how shot he looked in his past 2 fights. The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him. Therefore Nate Campbell never went above him even though he beat Juan Diaz. The number 1 in many peoples eyes bar the Ring mag. Fukk The Ring mag.
And actually I don't consider Calzaghe a two weight world champ cuz he ain't won a WBC, WBA, WBO or IBF title at light-heavyweight. Just my opinion ;)
The Ring didn't judge the fight just followed the official result! As I've said before the best fighter in the division is not always the champion or the title would never change hands. Just because Nate beat Juan didn't make him champion. Look at Liston he was avoided for years by Patterson & considered the best fighter in the division but he only became champion by beating the champion! Now how is that system stupid? Whats stupid is being given a paper belt & having 3 or 4 other paper belt holders all claiming to be champ... but thats just my opinion!!!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Do you consider Calzaghe a double champ? Cause I sure as hell do! But if you do you your contradicting yourself... you can't recognize Calzaghe but not Casamayor. I agree the Santa Cruz decision was rotten but that's the official result & history is littered with bad decisions. The fact is Casamayor entered the Ring as champion!
How do I contradict myself ? EVERYBODY bar 2 of those crack filled judges knew Santa Cruz won that fight. It wasn't close. So yes he was the champ according to the Ring ratings. But people know how shot he looked in his past 2 fights. The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him. Therefore Nate Campbell never went above him even though he beat Juan Diaz. The number 1 in many peoples eyes bar the Ring mag. Fukk The Ring mag.
And actually I don't consider Calzaghe a two weight world champ cuz he ain't won a WBC, WBA, WBO or IBF title at light-heavyweight. Just my opinion ;)
The Ring didn't judge the fight just followed the official result! As I've said before the best fighter in the division is not always the champion or the title would never change hands.
Just because Nate beat Juan didn't make him champion. Look at Liston he was avoided for years by Patterson & considered the best fighter in the division but he only became champion by beating the champion! Now how is that system stupid? Whats stupid is being given a paper belt & having 3 or 4 other paper belt holders all claiming to be champ... but thats just my opinion!!!
Why doesn't it ? Cuz he never beat the lineal champ Conamayor ? He beat Juan Diaz, the number 1 Undisputed world champion of the division. Therefore Nate becomes the Undisputed champ and number 1 of the division.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him.
If you think beating the MAN to become the MAN is stupid then maybe alphabet trinkets are more up your avenue.
And I really wouldn't mind all the silly paper titles, but the fact is, that they dilute one another, make thinks way too confusing for the casual fan, and are a cancer to the sport. Anyone who cares enough about the sport, and wants to see its preservation should ignore the alphabet trinkets.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
How do I contradict myself ? EVERYBODY bar 2 of those crack filled judges knew Santa Cruz won that fight. It wasn't close. So yes he was the champ according to the Ring ratings. But people know how shot he looked in his past 2 fights. The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him. Therefore Nate Campbell never went above him even though he beat Juan Diaz. The number 1 in many peoples eyes bar the Ring mag. Fukk The Ring mag.
And actually I don't consider Calzaghe a two weight world champ cuz he ain't won a WBC, WBA, WBO or IBF title at light-heavyweight. Just my opinion ;)
The Ring didn't judge the fight just followed the official result! As I've said before the best fighter in the division is not always the champion or the title would never change hands.
Just because Nate beat Juan didn't make him champion. Look at Liston he was avoided for years by Patterson & considered the best fighter in the division but he only became champion by beating the champion! Now how is that system stupid? Whats stupid is being given a paper belt & having 3 or 4 other paper belt holders all claiming to be champ... but thats just my opinion!!!
Why doesn't it ? Cuz he never beat the lineal champ Conamayor ? He beat Juan Diaz, the number 1 Undisputed world champion of the division. Therefore Nate becomes the Undisputed champ and number 1 of the division.
When did Campbell become undisputed champ? Must have missed that one! The majority of the titles Diaz collected had been stripped!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Alphabet NEW FlASH
Toshiaki Nishioka (32-4-3, 19 KOs), just won the WBC interim super-bantam belt today.
So who's the Super-Bantam weight Champion now. Nishioka or Israel Vasquez? That is the alphabet system. The WBC had some type of problem with Israel Vasquez that they had to create an interim champion.
What if Vasquez is stripped of his alphabet title for taking a fourth fight with Marquez. Are you going to tell me that Toshiaki Nishioka is the division champ. That's pathetic.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lance Uppercut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him.
If you think beating the MAN to become the MAN is stupid then maybe alphabet trinkets are more up your avenue.
And I really wouldn't mind all the silly paper titles, but the fact is, that they dilute one another, make thinks way too confusing for the casual fan, and are a cancer to the sport. Anyone who cares enough about the sport, and wants to see its preservation should ignore the alphabet trinkets.
Oh for fukk sake.
Simple terms.
Joel Casamayor was the RING champion. The man at 135 pounds in the Ring mags opinion.
Juan Diaz was the WBA, WBO, IBF champion and many bar the ring said he was the real number 1 in the division ahead of Casamayor.
Nate Campbell beats Juan Diaz and therefore becomes the Undisputed champion and many now feel he is number one bar the ring.
Joel Casamyor gets a gift over Santa Cruz and nearly gets beat by Michael Katsidis before throwing a left hook he will never throw again in his career. He looks shot in both them fights. Still gets the decisions so still in the Ring mags opinion is number 1 at 135 pounds.
Juan Manuel Marquez beats Joel Casamayor. Marqeuz becomes the Ring champion.
My view is why should Marquez now be the man at 135 pounds ? He beat Casamayor yes but Casamayor was only the number one in the Ring magazine ratings, nobody elses. Nate Campbell has fought at Lightweight numerous times and beat the recognized number 1 fighter in many peoples eyes. Therefore Nate Campbell should be number 1 in the division as he essentially beat the REAL champ, Juan Diaz.
I ain't even gonna say why Pac should be number 2 cuz I've had enough going on now. I've made my opinion heard at least.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lance Uppercut
Alphabet NEW FlASH
Toshiaki Nishioka (32-4-3, 19 KOs), just won the WBC interim super-bantam belt today.
So who's the Super-Bantam weight Champion now. Nishioka or Israel Vasquez? That is the alphabet system. The WBC had some type of problem with Israel Vasquez that they had to create an interim champion.
What if Vasquez is stripped of his alphabet title for taking a fourth fight with Marquez. Are you going to tell me that Toshiaki Nishioka is the division champ. That's pathetic.
Of course it's Vazquez. For fukk sake. He's fought the better competition and is the number 1 in many people's eyes not just the Ring ratings. Jesus Christ.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lance Uppercut
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
The ring ratings works a stupid way, you have to beat the champ to replace him.
If you think beating the MAN to become the MAN is stupid then maybe alphabet trinkets are more up your avenue.
And I really wouldn't mind all the silly paper titles, but the fact is, that they dilute one another, make thinks way too confusing for the casual fan, and are a cancer to the sport. Anyone who cares enough about the sport, and wants to see its preservation should ignore the alphabet trinkets.
Oh for fukk sake.
Simple terms.
Joel Casamayor was the RING champion. The man at 135 pounds in the Ring mags opinion.
Juan Diaz was the WBA, WBO, IBF champion and many bar the ring said he was the real number 1 in the division ahead of Casamayor.
Nate Campbell beats Juan Diaz and therefore becomes the Undisputed champion and many now feel he is number one bar the ring.
Joel Casamyor gets a gift over Santa Cruz and nearly gets beat by Michael Katsidis before throwing a left hook he will never throw again in his career. He looks shot in both them fights. Still gets the decisions so still in the Ring mags opinion is number 1 at 135 pounds.
Juan Manuel Marquez beats Joel Casamayor. Marqeuz becomes the Ring champion.
My view is why should Marquez now be the man at 135 pounds ? He beat Casamayor yes but Casamayor was only the number one in the Ring magazine ratings, nobody elses. Nate Campbell has fought at Lightweight numerous times and beat the recognized number 1 fighter in many peoples eyes. Therefore Nate Campbell should be number 1 in the division as he essentially beat the REAL champ, Juan Diaz.
I ain't even gonna say why Pac should be number 2 cuz I've had enough going on now. I've made my opinion heard at least.
Diaz may have been considered the best fighter in the division but he was not the champion... theres a difference!
All bar one of those belts that Nate holds were in possession of one of the linear champs at one time all the way back to Castillo before being stripped or given up. So essentially if it wasn't for stripping they would all be in Marquez' possession!
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?
Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)
Hatton is only The Ring champion ;)
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?
Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)
Hatton is only The Ring champion ;)
Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?
Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)
Hatton is only The Ring champion ;)
Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.
Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man. ;)
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
There's no number 1 at lightweight just yet. They are all champions (belt holders) at their own right. The debate is getting nowhere and even become more confusing. Not until they unify that we all get the clear picture. JMM is numero uno so does Pac and Campbell in their own right.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Hey Lefty, I take it you don't rate Hatton no.1 at 140 then?
Holt (WBO), Bradley (WBC), Kotelnik (WBA), Powderpuff (IBF)
Hatton is only The Ring champion ;)
Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.
Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man. ;)
Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.
Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.
Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Galaxy, Fenster, Lance you are all missing the point entirely.
I'm not saying Marquez shouldn't be the RING champion, I've agreed with that all along. According to the RING criteria Marquez is the the champ at 130 because he beat the man. I completely agree as I have said from the start. The linear title IS important to the RING magazine.
BUT I REGARD Manny Pacquaio as the number 1 because he is the p4p best fighter on the planet (universally recognised) AND beat Marquez just 6 months ago.
I put Campbell at number 2 because he beat the BEST LIGHTWEIGHT in the divison in the 3 TIMES champ Juan Diaz.
Marquez gets the number 3 spot for beating a washed up and done Casamayor who got stripped of his belt through inactivity and should have lost it against Santa Cruz anyhow.
I'm NOT saying that these should be the ring rankings, I agree they SHOULD NOT BUT THEY ARE THE MOST ACCURATE!!!!!!!!!!
That's all I've been saying all along. That in is this particular instance the Ring Magazines insistence of following the title lineage actually gives an innacurate picture of who is really the best in the division.
I've said this from my first post. How are you all so dull to understand this?
I agree with you that the Ring rankings should be 1.Marquez, 2. Pacquiao, 3. Campbell BUT I disagree that they are the most accurate rankings.
From the sounds of it you (galaxy and Fenster at least) agree with me on this so why are you still arguing the point?
The RING method of ranking fighters is only one way to rank them. It is not definitive, and it is not sacrosanct.
Manny Pacquaio IS the number 1 fighter in the lightweight division, by virtue of the fact that he is clearly the best fighter p4p in the world AND beat Marquez earlier this year. It takes a moron not to be able to see this. I agree MARQUEZ is the RING CHAMP but Manny Pacquiao IS the number 1 in reality.
Forgive me my capitals but I'm really having a hard time getting this across to you.
I'm not disagreeing that the Ring magazine should rank Marquez at number 1, they SHOULD, it's just that IN THIS CASE he clearly isn't number 1.
As regards Calzaghe why would he not be considered the man at light heavy? He beat Hopkins who beat Tarver. He didn't lose to Hopkins at a lower weight and he's never lost a fight. It's a completely different scenario to Pacquiao and Marqauez.
I'm not saying that lineage should be ignored, merely that in the case of Pacquiao and Marquez, to follow the lineage over everthing else leads to an inaccurate picture of the lightweight division.
Anyway the whole thing is completely arbitary anyway, it matters not one bit as the rankings are purely subjective and Manny's next fight will be at junior welter anyway.
I just wish you'd get the point.
Anyway rant over :)
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Bilbo, what does Pac beating Marquez (which he didn't ;)) at 130 have to do with Marquez beating THE MAN Joel Casamayor at 135?
I think Marquez beat Pac twice. I rate Marquez a BETTER fighter than Pac. But i respect the offical decision, so Pac has the victory.
For Pac to be no.1 at lightweight he should have fought, and beat, Casa not Diaz. Simple as ;D
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Hatton is the Lineal champ and has been number 1 in the division for 3 years. EVERYBODY knows Hatton is number 1 at Jr-welterweight, even the haters. He had to give up the IBF and WBA belts. He didn't lose them in the ring.
Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man. ;)
Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.
Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.
Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.
When Ricky beat Kostya, MANY people considered him no.2 behind Floyd at 140. Even though Floyd was CLEARLY a better fighter than Ricky, Ricky was still THE MAN because he beat THE MAN. Simple as.
You see it is the same with Casa.
Casa was the man from when he beat Diego Corrales. Just because people rated Diaz a better fighter doesn't give him claim to the "man that beat the man" throne. ;)
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brucelee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutMeMick
So you have Nate at number because he beat "baby bull" for 3 titles.
The WBA title was Juans baby he get's full credit for that one...
The WBO title he picked it after "Popo" Freitas won it which was "vacant" and beat Zahir for it. :puke: a vacant title...
The IBF title is even funnier, Jesus Chavez was the title holder then he retired/was out for about 2 yrs. comesback still as the champ and loses the title by injury to the knee vs. Julio Diaz in 3 fucken rounds. :puke:
Casa might not have been looking great and I can def. agree with that but he was still the lineal champ.
I keep reading this comment about Casa not being the champ because he lost to Santa Cruz. While I agree that Santa Cruz was blindedly robbed that still doesn't take that Casa was unfortunately awarded the win.
Also if that is the case then Pac should not be listed as wouldn't you all agree Morales beat David Diaz for his title?
If that is the case then Pac should also not be considered highly as David Diaz was beat by Morales.
The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.
Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.
But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?
I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.
But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.
Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.
He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.
Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.
Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.
Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.
Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.
You've said it well Bilbo. I give the number 1 ranking to Campbell and number 2 to pacquaio. Jmm would be number 3.
No way would it go to Marquez.:cool:
No way it would go to Juan Manuel Marquez ? then why do you rate your boy higher ? clearly stopping Joel Casamayor is a better achievement than beating David Diaz a fight which 95 percent thought was a mismatch.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leftylee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fenster
Right. So why is Casamayor different? He beat Diego Corrales to become lineal champ and hadn't lost until Marquez. Simple as. Like Hatton, Casa didn't need the shiny belts to PROVE he was the man. ;)
Casamayor is different because many people considered him number 2 in the division behind Juan Diaz and when Campbell beat Diaz people thought he was behind Nate Campbell.
Nobody thought Witter or Paulie was above Hatton only Witter and Paulie themselves and we all know how both of them are up there own asses.
Hatton was the clear number 1 while Casamayor wasn't. Many people begged to differ at Joel.
When Ricky beat Kostya, MANY people considered him no.2 behind Floyd at 140. Even though Floyd was CLEARLY a better fighter than Ricky, Ricky was still THE MAN because he beat THE MAN. Simple as.
You see it is the same with Casa.
Casa was the man from when he beat Diego Corrales. Just because people rated Diaz a better fighter doesn't give him claim to the "man that beat the man" throne. ;)
Exactly. the argument on both sides is flawed. To be undisputed you have to go through most of your top competition at THAT weight. The paralles to Casa and Hatton are uncanny. I'm a big Joe Calzghe fan, but I certainly con't consider him undisputed no.1 at LH, but he is at SM.
Number 1 at lightweight will remain vacant in my eyes until it's sorted in the ring.
On a side note, hope JMM against Nate next, be a travesty if Juan gets a shot at JMM before Nate, JD is young enough to wait for his shot, and went to the back of the queu after losing to Campbell.
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
I am sure it has been stated already... But my take on it is this.
You got Casa as champ. All-be-it a champ who has had a couple gifts. Now a dethroned champ. Now JMM beats him up... convincingly...
You've got J Diaz... He clears out the division loses to Nate. Kudos Nate your the champ.
So its the man who beat the man(JMM)... vs the man who beat the man who beat everybody (Nate).
Pac came in there and beat a somebody. And, although Pac beat JMM in another division AND only slightly (or not according to some) you have to give JMM credit for beating a tougher bigger stronger higher ranking opponent.
As for P4P that is where you'll see Pac above him until JMM gets the Win...
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
I do not agree
Campbell is number 1 as he is the unified champion
Manny Pacquiao is number 2 as WBC champ and the man who recently beat Marquez
Juan Manuel Marquez is lucky to get the number 3 spot IMO cuz I think Baby Bull Diaz has done more than him at the weight .
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GAME
I do not agree
Campbell is number 1 as he us teh unified champion
Manny Pacquiao is number 2 as WBC champ and the man who recently beat Marquez
Juan Manuel Marquez is lucky to get the number 3 spot IMO cuz I think Baby Bull Diaz has done more than him at the weight .
:appl:
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Re: Boxrec make JMM No1 Lightweight. Who agrees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ICB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
brucelee
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bilbo
The Morales Diaz decision wasn't even in the same ballpark as Santa Cruz and Casa. It was a very close fight that could have gone either way, much like the Pacquaio Marquez fight.
Santa Cruz on the other hand was robbed like few others have been robbed in boxing history.
But even if you allow for that how do you justify putting Marquez above Manny when Manny beat him in the past year?
I can understand the Ring making Marquesz their champ, as they always give it to the linear champ so maybe according to criteria that is the 'correct' decision.
But nobody can convince me that Juan Diaz and Nate Campbell are easier opponents than Casamayor at this stage in his career.
Both Campbell and Juan Diaz would beaten Casa soundly yesterday imo, as would Manny and Juan Guzman. Casa is simply too old and done and should retire.
He hasn't looked good in a couple of years.
Coming into his fight with Campbell it was blatently clear to everyone that Juan Diaz was THE man in the division. He was unbeaten and unifying world titles, exactly what a champion is supposed to do. Casa was inactive and then losing to average fighters only to be given a gift by the judges.
Compare the number Juan Diaz did on Katsidis to the trouble that Casa had with him. He's done plain and simple.
Great win for Marquez but it doesn't equate to beating a young, hungry, prime fighter like Juan Diaz. Campbells win was far bigger imo.
Campbell is the best lightweight on merit right now. I understand he doesn't hold the 'linear' title that the Ring harps on about so muchbut in every other way he's the champ.
You've said it well Bilbo. I give the number 1 ranking to Campbell and number 2 to pacquaio. Jmm would be number 3.
No way would it go to Marquez.:cool:
No way it would go to Juan Manuel Marquez ? then why do you rate your boy higher ? clearly stopping Joel Casamayor is a better achievement than beating David Diaz a fight which 95 percent thought was a mismatch.
Marquez vs. Casa was also projected as a mismatch with JMM a 4 to 1 favorite but what a surprise, the fight was a very close one after 10 rounds with 2 judges scoring the fight even at 95-95...
PAC vs. Diaz is also a mismatch and PAC live up to expectations by not giving a single round to Diaz, a total domination and knocking out Diaz in the 9th round... JMM stopped Casa in the 11th round... ;)
.
