Lucian Bute

[ICB]

We'll see but I think you're using generalizations as reasons here. Bute is a boxer-first while Pavlik was a pure pressure guy. Look at Cotto-Margarito then Margarito-Cotto. Cotto probably landed just as many punches as Mosley but the difference was that Mosley didn't give Margarito the chance to come forward. If Bute chooses to do the smart thing, fight a range fight and outbox Miranda then I just don't see the early knockout coming by way of anything but the one special shot. Pavlik came out and blasted with Miranda, Ward came in and got in his kitchen and bullied him and he only got a decision out of it, Bute won't be fighting as aggressively as either of those guys imo because that's just not his style of fighting.

What's your take on Bute now, Amat?

The guy is as accurate as any with his punches.

I can't speak for Amat, but generally I think it's easier to knock guys out when they are standing in front of you with their hands on their hips.

Miranda is done, his arua has been destroyed and he's an easy nights work for most of the top guys, especially those with boxing skills, which Bute undeniably has.

I must admit I think Carl Froch would have a harder time with Miranda, as he needs to go to war with fighters, and that gives Edison the kind of fight he wants.

But Bute is a very solid fighter no denying that.

I just don't like him because a) he's Canadian, b) Ice and CFH rate him and think he beats Froch, and c) The Ring rates him higher than Andre Ward and Carl Froch even though both have beaten better opposition.

Bilbo you say you don't like Nonito Donaire, because he only has one good win. And you think his ranking is a joke which i agree on, then why do you think Andre Ward should be number 1 then ?

His only good win is against Mikkel Kessler, who hasn't been fighting good fighters since 2007. Not to mention all the headbutts and ETC, outside of Mikkel Kessler who is there ? Edison Miranda who he went 12 rounds who Lucian Bute destroyed in 3 ?

Yes Mikkel Kessler is better than any fighter on Lucian Bute's resume, but thats only one win. Lucian Bute overall has the better record aswell as being a world champion since 2007.

As for Carl Froch well in my opinion he lost to Andre Dirrell, so not going by the record books and just my opinion, i don't think he's higher than Lucian Bute. But opposition wise he is i agree, but theres more to it than that.

You got too look at skill, title reigns, ETC. And skill wise Carl Froch is probably not even in the top 10 regarding Super Middleweights.

You also have to look at it this way, how would Carl Froch fare against the other top Super Middleweights ? because many people think he's the 2nd worst fighter in this tournament.

But i do agree he has beaten better opposition.

[amat]

Plus the headbutts

That's not even close to the reason Kessler lost that fight to Ward, not even close. Also, for what it's worth I thought Miranda won the second round of that fight with Bute, not that it's worth much.

[ICB]

Plus the headbutts

That's not even close to the reason Kessler lost that fight to Ward, not even close. Also, for what it's worth I thought Miranda won the second round of that fight with Bute, not that it's worth much.

No but it certainly didn't help matters, im not saying it would of made any difference. Its just down to styles IMO, but the heasbutts certainly didn't help, and he let Andre Ward get away with quite a bit.

Not that i've got anything against Andre Ward. He's a good fighter and he did indeed beat Mikkel Kessler in good fashion.

But he's getting a bit overrated IMO, Mikkel Kessler wasted 2 years fighting nobodies and looked out of sorts IMO. So you have to take that into account, and i remember when Andre Ward was getting floored and hurt vs nobodies. Im still not sold on his chin.

I don't personally know how anyone could rate Andre Ward over Lucian Bute, he's got one good win on his record and his only other notable win is over Edison Miranda, who Lucian Bute stopped in 3 rounds.

Lucian Bute overall has the better record, he's just as skilled. He's been very dominant of late, and he has been a world champion since 2007.

It was a good win for Andre Ward and he very well could be the favorite, i've got nothing against him. But as for now he shouldn't be above Lucian Bute.

[amat]

I agree that Bute has beaten the better competition actually, and I'd venture to say that even Froch has "beaten" better fighters then Ward and Bute. However, I think Kessler is the best fighter any of those 3 have on their record's and I also think Ward is the best and most complete fighter of the 3.

[ICB]

I agree that Bute has beaten the better competition actually, and I'd venture to say that even Froch has "beaten" better fighters then Ward. However, I think Kessler is the best fighter any of those 3 have on their record's and I also think Ward is the best and most complete fighter of the 3.

Oh i totally agree with you word for word, i think Andre Ward very well could be the most complete fighter in the Super Middleweight division easy. I know i may sound crazy for saying this. But i think Andre Ward, is the only fighter out of the super six tournament that could beat Lucian Bute.

I also agree that Mikkel Kessler, is a better win than anything on Lucian Bute's resume. But im glad you agree with me regarding Lucian Bute being higher, i don't understand Bilbo's reasoning for that personally, considering how he feels about Nonito Donaire.

[Kev]

What's your take on Bute now, Amat?

The guy is as accurate as any with his punches.

I can't speak for Amat, but generally I think it's easier to knock guys out when they are standing in front of you with their hands on their hips.

Miranda is done, his arua has been destroyed and he's an easy nights work for most of the top guys, especially those with boxing skills, which Bute undeniably has.

I must admit I think Carl Froch would have a harder time with Miranda, as he needs to go to war with fighters, and that gives Edison the kind of fight he wants.

But Bute is a very solid fighter no denying that.

I just don't like him because a) he's Canadian, b) Ice and CFH rate him and think he beats Froch, and c) The Ring rates him higher than Andre Ward and Carl Froch even though both have beaten better opposition.

Bilbo you say you don't like Nonito Donaire, because he only has one good win. And you think his ranking is a joke which i agree on, then why do you think Andre Ward should be number 1 then ?

His only good win is against Mikkel Kessler, who hasn't been fighting good fighters since 2007. Not to mention all the headbutts and ETC, outside of Mikkel Kessler who is there ? Edison Miranda who he went 12 rounds who Lucian Bute destroyed in 3 ?

Yes Mikkel Kessler is better than any fighter on Lucian Bute's resume, but thats only one win. Lucian Bute overall has the better record aswell as being a world champion since 2007.

As for Carl Froch well in my opinion he lost to Andre Dirrell, so not going by the record books and just my opinion, i don't think he's higher than Lucian Bute. But opposition wise he is i agree, but theres more to it than that.

You got too look at skill, title reigns, ETC. And skill wise Carl Froch is probably not even in the top 10 regarding Super Middleweights.

You also have to look at it this way, how would Carl Froch fare against the other top Super Middleweights ? because many people think he's the 2nd worst fighter in this tournament.

But i do agree he has beaten better opposition.

Kessler was the Ring champ and as close as the division had to a lineal champ, he was considered the man, and Ward beat the man. He's also beaten Miranda too for what it's worth so all Bute has done that Ward hasn't imo is gone 1-1 with Andrade.

You could argue that Froch lost to Dirrell, but you can make just a legitimate argument that Bute was knocked out by Librado Andrade.

And Dirrell's resume with a win over Artur Abraham, tops by some margin Andrades.

You may not like the fact that Froch got the W against Dirrell, but the fact is wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell are all bigger than any opponent Bute has faced let alone beat.

The only names on Bute's resume are second tier fighters like Bika, Andrade (with whom you could argue he is 1-1) and Berrio.

If he's rated at number 1, it's on potential not acomplishments.

Clearly Froch has beaten the better guys, and Ward beat the man in the division. It shouldn't be an argument imo, Bute should be number 3.

[amat]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

[Kev]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

[CFH]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

I really don't want to have this argument again, but he's legitimately beaten Andrade twice. You can argue that Wright did a horrible job throughout the fight, but by the letter of the IBF's law, regardless of Wrights actions, Bute won that fight and to say otherwise is just incorrect. And I was cheering for Andrade.

[amat]

If we're going to be counting Froch's victory over Dirrell as a proper win, which it wasn't, then Bute's win over Andrade much stand. Although I do agree that he was GONE, in another place and for all intensive purposes should have a 1 in the loss column.

[OumaFan]

He's somehow Canadian and Eastern European. Just goes from bad to worse, or worst to pretty bad.

As long as we can all agree Dirrell's the number one guy at 168 everything will be ok.

[eagle]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

I think you have to look at how Bute get his wins against these guys too. He pretty much wins every round, then more often than not knocks them out in a brutal fashion.

He may not have a huge name on his resume yet but other than the slip up in the first Andrade fight he has totally dominated six second tier fighters in a row. He doesnt just beat them he KOs them early or wins every round.
No one, not even Calzaghe dominated Bika as much as Bute did. Andrade had never been KO'd til Bute did it, he dominated Zuniga more than Pavlik did. Berrio was IBF champ and but dominated him and KO'd him so bad it pretty much ruined him.
If Bute was eeking out home town decisions Ottke stye i'd agree with you, but i think his performances prove he belongs rght at the top of the division.

[Rantcatrat]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

Bilbo, In my humble opinion, you are giving too much credit to Ward for his win over Kessler. Who has Kessler actually beat to merit giving Ward so much credit for beating Kessler? I'm gonna come out and say it: He was overrated before the Ward match and the win is overrated now.

Just like you said about Bute, he has only beat a lot of second tier fighters and the best of the lot are Beyer, Mundine, and Andrade. Bute's wins over Andrade, Bika, Berrio, and Miranda are just as good. Truthfully, he's been beat everytime he has stepped up in competition. Now, I give him tons of credit for fighting the Calzaghe's and Ward's of the world...in their backyards. He lives up to his name as the Viking Warrior. However, he also receives too much credit for losing to Calzaghe.

I like Kessler as a fighter, but he needs a quality win BADLY. He's done at the top level if he loses to Froch. Straight up. This is put up or shut up for Kessler. And as much as I admire what Froch's done, it'll further lessen the significance of Ward's win if Kessler loses to him.

In regards to Bute, the point of the post, what he needs is that career-defining win at the top level. Like Kessler, he's shown he can dominate the second-tier guys in a deep division. Hopkins at 170 would be that sort of win even though he's old. Pavlik would have been too, but that idea is shot now. There really isn't anyone else at or around that weight for him to fight that would be such a win.

I also agree with Eagle in that he beats the second tier guys more impressively than anyone else, which has to say something about his ability.

[No Contest]

Lucian Bute doesnt get the respect he deserves. I don't know why he's not in the super six. Was that Showtimes doing or his doing? Everyone wants to write him off because of that one round against Andrade.

[CFH]

Lucian Bute doesnt get the respect he deserves. I don't know why he's not in the super six. Was that Showtimes doing or his doing? Everyone wants to write him off because of that one round against Andrade.

It's all explained earlier in this thread.