Lucian Bute

[ICB]

I agree that Bute has beaten the better competition actually, and I'd venture to say that even Froch has "beaten" better fighters then Ward. However, I think Kessler is the best fighter any of those 3 have on their record's and I also think Ward is the best and most complete fighter of the 3.

Oh i totally agree with you word for word, i think Andre Ward very well could be the most complete fighter in the Super Middleweight division easy. I know i may sound crazy for saying this. But i think Andre Ward, is the only fighter out of the super six tournament that could beat Lucian Bute.

I also agree that Mikkel Kessler, is a better win than anything on Lucian Bute's resume. But im glad you agree with me regarding Lucian Bute being higher, i don't understand Bilbo's reasoning for that personally, considering how he feels about Nonito Donaire.

[Kev]

What's your take on Bute now, Amat?

The guy is as accurate as any with his punches.

I can't speak for Amat, but generally I think it's easier to knock guys out when they are standing in front of you with their hands on their hips.

Miranda is done, his arua has been destroyed and he's an easy nights work for most of the top guys, especially those with boxing skills, which Bute undeniably has.

I must admit I think Carl Froch would have a harder time with Miranda, as he needs to go to war with fighters, and that gives Edison the kind of fight he wants.

But Bute is a very solid fighter no denying that.

I just don't like him because a) he's Canadian, b) Ice and CFH rate him and think he beats Froch, and c) The Ring rates him higher than Andre Ward and Carl Froch even though both have beaten better opposition.

Bilbo you say you don't like Nonito Donaire, because he only has one good win. And you think his ranking is a joke which i agree on, then why do you think Andre Ward should be number 1 then ?

His only good win is against Mikkel Kessler, who hasn't been fighting good fighters since 2007. Not to mention all the headbutts and ETC, outside of Mikkel Kessler who is there ? Edison Miranda who he went 12 rounds who Lucian Bute destroyed in 3 ?

Yes Mikkel Kessler is better than any fighter on Lucian Bute's resume, but thats only one win. Lucian Bute overall has the better record aswell as being a world champion since 2007.

As for Carl Froch well in my opinion he lost to Andre Dirrell, so not going by the record books and just my opinion, i don't think he's higher than Lucian Bute. But opposition wise he is i agree, but theres more to it than that.

You got too look at skill, title reigns, ETC. And skill wise Carl Froch is probably not even in the top 10 regarding Super Middleweights.

You also have to look at it this way, how would Carl Froch fare against the other top Super Middleweights ? because many people think he's the 2nd worst fighter in this tournament.

But i do agree he has beaten better opposition.

Kessler was the Ring champ and as close as the division had to a lineal champ, he was considered the man, and Ward beat the man. He's also beaten Miranda too for what it's worth so all Bute has done that Ward hasn't imo is gone 1-1 with Andrade.

You could argue that Froch lost to Dirrell, but you can make just a legitimate argument that Bute was knocked out by Librado Andrade.

And Dirrell's resume with a win over Artur Abraham, tops by some margin Andrades.

You may not like the fact that Froch got the W against Dirrell, but the fact is wins over Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell are all bigger than any opponent Bute has faced let alone beat.

The only names on Bute's resume are second tier fighters like Bika, Andrade (with whom you could argue he is 1-1) and Berrio.

If he's rated at number 1, it's on potential not acomplishments.

Clearly Froch has beaten the better guys, and Ward beat the man in the division. It shouldn't be an argument imo, Bute should be number 3.

[amat]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

[Kev]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

[CFH]

We'll see but I think you're using generalizations as reasons here. Bute is a boxer-first while Pavlik was a pure pressure guy. Look at Cotto-Margarito then Margarito-Cotto. Cotto probably landed just as many punches as Mosley but the difference was that Mosley didn't give Margarito the chance to come forward. If Bute chooses to do the smart thing, fight a range fight and outbox Miranda then I just don't see the early knockout coming by way of anything but the one special shot. Pavlik came out and blasted with Miranda, Ward came in and got in his kitchen and bullied him and he only got a decision out of it, Bute won't be fighting as aggressively as either of those guys imo because that's just not his style of fighting.

What's your take on Bute now, Amat?

The guy is as accurate as any with his punches.

I can't speak for Amat, but generally I think it's easier to knock guys out when they are standing in front of you with their hands on their hips.

Miranda is done, his arua has been destroyed and he's an easy nights work for most of the top guys, especially those with boxing skills, which Bute undeniably has.

I must admit I think Carl Froch would have a harder time with Miranda, as he needs to go to war with fighters, and that gives Edison the kind of fight he wants.

But Bute is a very solid fighter no denying that.

I just don't like him because a) he's Canadian, b) Ice and CFH rate him and think he beats Froch, and c) The Ring rates him higher than Andre Ward and Carl Froch even though both have beaten better opposition.

Oddly enough, I don't like many Canadian fighters either.

[CFH]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

I really don't want to have this argument again, but he's legitimately beaten Andrade twice. You can argue that Wright did a horrible job throughout the fight, but by the letter of the IBF's law, regardless of Wrights actions, Bute won that fight and to say otherwise is just incorrect. And I was cheering for Andrade.

[amat]

If we're going to be counting Froch's victory over Dirrell as a proper win, which it wasn't, then Bute's win over Andrade much stand. Although I do agree that he was GONE, in another place and for all intensive purposes should have a 1 in the loss column.

[OumaFan]

He's somehow Canadian and Eastern European. Just goes from bad to worse, or worst to pretty bad.

As long as we can all agree Dirrell's the number one guy at 168 everything will be ok.

[eagle]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

I think you have to look at how Bute get his wins against these guys too. He pretty much wins every round, then more often than not knocks them out in a brutal fashion.

He may not have a huge name on his resume yet but other than the slip up in the first Andrade fight he has totally dominated six second tier fighters in a row. He doesnt just beat them he KOs them early or wins every round.
No one, not even Calzaghe dominated Bika as much as Bute did. Andrade had never been KO'd til Bute did it, he dominated Zuniga more than Pavlik did. Berrio was IBF champ and but dominated him and KO'd him so bad it pretty much ruined him.
If Bute was eeking out home town decisions Ottke stye i'd agree with you, but i think his performances prove he belongs rght at the top of the division.

[Rantcatrat]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

Bilbo, In my humble opinion, you are giving too much credit to Ward for his win over Kessler. Who has Kessler actually beat to merit giving Ward so much credit for beating Kessler? I'm gonna come out and say it: He was overrated before the Ward match and the win is overrated now.

Just like you said about Bute, he has only beat a lot of second tier fighters and the best of the lot are Beyer, Mundine, and Andrade. Bute's wins over Andrade, Bika, Berrio, and Miranda are just as good. Truthfully, he's been beat everytime he has stepped up in competition. Now, I give him tons of credit for fighting the Calzaghe's and Ward's of the world...in their backyards. He lives up to his name as the Viking Warrior. However, he also receives too much credit for losing to Calzaghe.

I like Kessler as a fighter, but he needs a quality win BADLY. He's done at the top level if he loses to Froch. Straight up. This is put up or shut up for Kessler. And as much as I admire what Froch's done, it'll further lessen the significance of Ward's win if Kessler loses to him.

In regards to Bute, the point of the post, what he needs is that career-defining win at the top level. Like Kessler, he's shown he can dominate the second-tier guys in a deep division. Hopkins at 170 would be that sort of win even though he's old. Pavlik would have been too, but that idea is shot now. There really isn't anyone else at or around that weight for him to fight that would be such a win.

I also agree with Eagle in that he beats the second tier guys more impressively than anyone else, which has to say something about his ability.

[No Contest]

Lucian Bute doesnt get the respect he deserves. I don't know why he's not in the super six. Was that Showtimes doing or his doing? Everyone wants to write him off because of that one round against Andrade.

[mickel]

I think BUte is at least a pick'em against any in the super six. Strangely perhaps, I think abraham, with his power, would be the most dangerous fight for Bute..

[CFH]

Lucian Bute doesnt get the respect he deserves. I don't know why he's not in the super six. Was that Showtimes doing or his doing? Everyone wants to write him off because of that one round against Andrade.

It's all explained earlier in this thread.

[ICB]

I'm somehow agreeing with both of you

I think in the divisional rankings, it's Ward 1 because he did in fact beat the man regarded to be the man. When you do that you're top dog imo, even though Bute has the better resume.

Why has Bute got a better resume though?

Bute's resume.

Top Tier Fighters - None
Second Tier - Berrio, Miranda, Andrade (1-1), Bika

Ward's resume

Top Tier Fighters - Kessler

Second Tier - Miranda

If this were the Olympics Ward has a gold and a silver versus Bute's 3 silver (don't give him anything for Andrade as he lost the first fight) and thus wins.

Bilbo you make me laugh honestly, your the one that defended Lucian Bute. Regarding the Librado Andrade controversy, he went down when there was no time left in the round, he got up and beat the count. yes the ref was stupid for telling Librado Andrade to go to the neutral corner.

But that was irrelevant because when Lucian Bute, went down there was no time left in the round, all he had to do. Was beat the count and respond to the ref, which he did if the ref hadn't of told Librado Andrade off for the Neutral corner BS. There would be no controversy and it also took away, the heart shown from Lucian Bute to survive and win.

I know for 100 percent you also agreed, but yet here. Your saying he thought he lost why the change of mind ? because it sounds like your just trying to discredit Lucian Bute to make your point.

The fact is Lucian Bute has beaten overall better opposition, aswell as being a world champion since 2007.

Wins over.

Sakio Bika
Kabary Salem
William Joppy
Librado Andrade x2
Edison Miranda
Alejandro Berrio
Fulgencio Zuniga
Lolenga Mock = Floored David Haye.

Aren't great opposition but its a solid list, also Kabary Salem, Fulgencio Zuniga, Librado Andrade, had never been stopped until they fought Lucian Bute.

Its also the way he's been destroying, the opposition that you have to take into account.

Where as Carl Froch was way behind vs Jermain Taylor, until he scored a come from behind KO. He also earned a very razor thin decision over Jean Pascal, and totally got a gift off Andre Dirrell. Infact you could say in his last 3 fights he's lost atleast 24 rounds.

As for Andre Ward as i said he has one good win over a Mikkel Kessler, who hasn't been fighting top opposition since 2007. He's obviously not the same fighter anymore, yes it was a great win for Andre Ward and i give him props.

But good one win doesn't mean your suddenly the number 1 Super Middleweight, and im suprised you think that way. Considering how much you hate on Nonito Donaire, i mean hell Andre Dirrell deserves to be higher than Andre Ward.

Most think he beat Carl Froch, he also has solid wins over Arthur Abraham, Anthony Hanshaw.

[TheMacMagician]

Take a wild guess on how I know?

Hint...One guy promotes Taylor the other part of Bute's team

Froch has had 2 fights outside of the UK....You act as if Froch fighting in the states against Taylor makes him sound like a champion willing to travel.....He has defended the belt twice...Once in the super 6 and they took Taylor because they wanted a fight with a marketable name that they felt Froch would walk over (Though until Taylor gassed Froch was having it handed to him)........I PROMISE you it had to do with Froch and Dick Hennessy looking to make him mainstream not Froch and his "Willing" to travel

Same night I was trying to be convinced that Carl Froch was a 12 rd fighter and he was not at his best until he reached the 9th or 10th round....Yet he had only been 12 2 times prior in his career..

BTW I know that because the words came straight to me from Froch's mouth...

I don't know about mainstream TV in the UK so I can't say if he is or isn't but for all the talk of him over the last few years in a dead SMW division and articles I read abt him even before Pascal I would have guessed different...BUT that then enforces the part of Froch and his people trying to use Taylor as a jump off to make him Mainstream

That doesn't make sense. You're saying Froch travelling doesn't prove he's willing to travel. Seriously, what the fuck?

Taylor was Froch's mandatory (when does the champion travel to the challenger?), the betting favourite and most "experts" picked him to win. So don't try and pass it off as some caluculated non-risk.

Of course fighting a former P4P undisputed middleweight champion will get you mainstream attention. How is that a negative? Unfortunately for Froch it didn't do much in the UK.

He could have eaisly done what Bute has - defend his belt against a bunch of c/b-level guys.

(Back to the point)

Bute's promoter told you about the England thing and then the arrogance and stipulations. Well he would say that. I'm sure Mick Hennessy has a different story.

From a neutrals perspective it's far harder to believe Bute was the willing traveller

I don't know if sometimes you are just ignorant or you just don't fucking pay attention to what you read...

Froch COULD HAVE MADE TAYLOR FIGHT HIM IN THE UK.....THEY DID NOT LOOK AT TAYLOR AS A BIG RISK SO THEY DECIDED IT WOULD BE A GREAT FIGHT TO MAKE HIS USA DEBUT WITH!!!!..

AGAIN THEY WERE USING THE FIGHT AS THE PERFECT TIME TO GET A BIGGER BROADCASTING AUDIENCE FOR FROCH.....

I PROMISE YOU THAT IF THE FIGHT WAS AGAINST A GUY THEY WERE NOT SURE ABOUT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CAME HERE FOR THE FIGHT......

FROCH AND HIS PEOPLE WERE EMBARRASSED BECAUSE OF THE KNOCKDOWN....

IF YOU KNEW HALF AS MUCH ABOUT THE PROMOTERS THEMSELVES AND HALF AS MUCH ABOUT THE GOINGS ON BEHIND THE SCENES AS U THINK U DO BECAUSE OF WHAT U READ IN THE MEDIA U MIGHT NOT MAKE STUPID POST LIKE...

At no time did they think Froch was not going to beat Taylor....They counted on Taylor gassing, they counted on Taylor crumbling like he did in the Pavlik fight...They counted on the fact Taylor was abused in the 2 Pavlik fights, they counted on the fact before Pavlik he struggkled with 2 small LMW fighters and the fact he looked horrible against Lacy....They never expected Taylor to carry enough power to even knockdown Froch...Things did not go their way that is why they tried to pass off the whole...

"If you look at Carl Froch you know he is a 12 rd fighter who does his best work after the 9th".....Yet had only gone the distance 2 times prior....and has a KO% of over 75 at nthe time of the fight....They were trying to convince themselves more then anyone.....

That came from Mick Hennessy himself...But YOU would know that because you were at the press conference when me and 6 other writers 2 from the UK walked out...That was you somewhere in there no?....Were you the fat ass falling asleep in his coffee? OR were you the guy who could not get his camera to work?.....Because Mick came in first after Taylor and his people walked out started to speak then almost the whole room left but 7 writers some fat guy and a guy who could not get his camera to work....Y because of the SHIT Mick was trying to spout about Froch and his win over Taylor showing he is the best fighters from MW to CW and should be ranked #1 SMW and on the P4P list........Along with his future great bullshit.....BUT u knew all this yes?.......

You know the embarrassment they suffered by standing there with only his promoter trainer and family members he came to the US with long before the presser was done?....

Mainly because of the SHIT the high quality always honest Mick Hennessy was spouting....Making Don King and Frank Warren look like poster boys for truth and honesty.....

But please tell me more about Mick telling it how it is and more of Froch being the standout I will travel with my title because I am a CHAMPION stories of yours.....

Just been working my way through this thread, fascinating that bit Daxx. Nice one.