Ortiz v Murray could be on the Khan v Maidana undercard!

[skel1983]

Eric why is he bothered if Ortiz beat Murray? You seem to have another agenda mate, you seem to pissed when a Brit fighter gets dismissed when being talked about at world level

read back through the thread dude, you said he would loose i said i thought he would win, and you got upset because i said you were wrong

you still seem upset that i think he could win

and all this about liking boxing for boxing, thats all very very nice, well done

Upset lol

Mate this is what this place is about opinions and debates, but when your arguement is as weak as yours, the debate like this thread has gone on and on that is all mate, nothing personal.

if you say you wasnt upset then you mustnt have been upset

"but when your arguement is as weak as yours" doesnt sound like someone who is happy with the way the conversation has gone

i think your argument is weak, think about that?

Well that is you fella, end of the day I have put across why I think he hasn't got a
chance until the last reply where you say:

"Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again"

That is the first bit of hard info you have given, prior to that it was your great knowledge of Murray that set you apart from the rest of us but then the cracks of this knowledge stared to appear when you said he has never looked like loosing, when he has already had one gift in his career. Like I say I have met and spoke to John and his trainer Joe few times great guys so this anti Brit bollocks you seen to have your knickers in a twist with does not exist only in your mind.

[erics44]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

[ono]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

Doesn't the fact that Murray struggled badly with a part-time Ice Cream man worry you slightly? Or the fact that he struggled away from home against a fairly limited Miguel Munguia over in the US?
Could that not be an indication that he might not travel well, or he might struggle against somebody with a bit of technical ability and skill? I mean in both those fights, he got pretty generous decisions.

[JazMerkin]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

You asked if I thought England would win it. I didn't, regardless of how much better they looked under Capello.

Like I said in my last post, I think you don't get that most people aside from ICB take things with humour & a pinch of salt here. You seem to think we're all hysterical on here. I don't think that not being upset by a debate on a boxing forum suddenly makes me Lenny McClean

Ortiz has shown he can take that kind of pressure when he fought Nate Campbell. Murray took 9 or 10 to get rid Kudriatsev. At Lightweight, he'd have a shot at some of the titlists, even JMM if he slips a fair bit, but the 140lbers are just too big, strong & fast for him.

[erics44]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

Doesn't the fact that Murray struggled badly with a part-time Ice Cream man worry you slightly? Or the fact that he struggled away from home against a fairly limited Miguel Munguia over in the US?
Could that not be an indication that he might not travel well, or he might struggle against somebody with a bit of technical ability and skill? I mean in both those fights, he got pretty generous decisions.

i watched the ice cream man fight, ok it wasnt a vintage performance but it was reasonably early in his carear and it wasnt as bad as everyone is making out

turn the sound down and watch it again, the commentators dont help with their opinions, and if that is the closest he has come to loosing then I still havent seen him look any where near loosing

perhaps he doesnt travel, the time he fought in america was about the same time and again it wasnt a great performance but is it not posible he has learned from it?

[erics44]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

You asked if I thought England would win it. I didn't, regardless of how much better they looked under Capello.

Like I said in my last post, I think you don't get that most people aside from ICB take things with humour & a pinch of salt here. You seem to think we're all hysterical on here. I don't think that not being upset by a debate on a boxing forum suddenly makes me Lenny McClean

Ortiz has shown he can take that kind of pressure when he fought Nate Campbell. Murray took 9 or 10 to get rid Kudriatsev. At Lightweight, he'd have a shot at some of the titlists, even JMM if he slips a fair bit, but the 140lbers are just too big, strong & fast for him.

so when asked would they win it you said england wont win the world cup? or did you say, they are in the top 6 in the world, they have a chance?

i dont really understand the second sentence of the second bit you wrote

is the size really that much of an issue? there have been plenty of examples recently of smaller fighters moving through the weights and doing well

[JazMerkin]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

You asked if I thought England would win it. I didn't, regardless of how much better they looked under Capello.

Like I said in my last post, I think you don't get that most people aside from ICB take things with humour & a pinch of salt here. You seem to think we're all hysterical on here. I don't think that not being upset by a debate on a boxing forum suddenly makes me Lenny McClean

Ortiz has shown he can take that kind of pressure when he fought Nate Campbell. Murray took 9 or 10 to get rid Kudriatsev. At Lightweight, he'd have a shot at some of the titlists, even JMM if he slips a fair bit, but the 140lbers are just too big, strong & fast for him.

so when asked would they win it you said england wont win the world cup? or did you say, they are in the top 6 in the world, they have a chance?

i dont really understand the second sentence of the second bit you wrote

is the size really that much of an issue? there have been plenty of examples recently of smaller fighters moving through the weights and doing well

I said I don't think they'd win the World Cup. I didn't dismiss their chances completely, I just didn't see it happening. I also wouldn't have personally considered them one of the Top 6 sides in the world at the time regardless of what the Fifa rankings were. I recognized they had a chance, but I didn't see the quality being there for anything better than the semi-finals.

Ok my 2nd sentence mean = just because I don't get upset by random bloke on internet does not mean I suddenly think I'm Tony Montana (tell me if I'm using any cultural references that are foreign).

Most of the guys who move up through the weights are generally reliant on at least one of three factors - speed, power, technical skills. Pressure fighters like Murray who lack great power at their natural weightclass generally don't move through different weightclasses well. Look at guys like Juan Diaz or Ricky Hatton (who had a pretty good dig at 140) who didn't handle moving up in weight too well.

[erics44]

Well that is you fella, end of the day I have put across why I think he hasn't got a
chance until the last reply where you say:

"Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again"

That is the first bit of hard info you have given, prior to that it was your great knowledge of Murray that set you apart from the rest of us but then the cracks of this knowledge stared to appear when you said he has never looked like loosing, when he has already had one gift in his career. Like I say I have met and spoke to John and his trainer Joe few times great guys so this anti Brit bollocks you seen to have your knickers in a twist with does not exist only in your mind.

yep, thats my great knowledge of murray

and ive watched the fight and it wasnt a gift, wasnt a vintage performance but definately didnt deserve to loose

again dude, i think you are still a little upset because there is no give, against ortiz you say murray will loose and has no chance, i say murray could win and his biggest worry is early power,

dont forget we arent just talking about ortiz, it is your opinion that Murray doesnt have a chance at world level, not enough movement, not enough power, struggles with movement, etc

and whether you are friends with him or not, that doesnt mean your opinion of his chances can be taken as more valid than mine or anybody elses

My mate phil works in a large supermarket, doesnt mean i know more about stacking shelves than you

[erics44]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

You asked if I thought England would win it. I didn't, regardless of how much better they looked under Capello.

Like I said in my last post, I think you don't get that most people aside from ICB take things with humour & a pinch of salt here. You seem to think we're all hysterical on here. I don't think that not being upset by a debate on a boxing forum suddenly makes me Lenny McClean

Ortiz has shown he can take that kind of pressure when he fought Nate Campbell. Murray took 9 or 10 to get rid Kudriatsev. At Lightweight, he'd have a shot at some of the titlists, even JMM if he slips a fair bit, but the 140lbers are just too big, strong & fast for him.

so when asked would they win it you said england wont win the world cup? or did you say, they are in the top 6 in the world, they have a chance?

i dont really understand the second sentence of the second bit you wrote

is the size really that much of an issue? there have been plenty of examples recently of smaller fighters moving through the weights and doing well

I said I don't think they'd win the World Cup. I didn't dismiss their chances completely, I just didn't see it happening. I also wouldn't have personally considered them one of the Top 6 sides in the world at the time regardless of what the Fifa rankings were. I recognized they had a chance, but I didn't see the quality being there for anything better than the semi-finals.

Ok my 2nd sentence mean = just because I don't get upset by random bloke on internet does not mean I suddenly think I'm Tony Montana (tell me if I'm using any cultural references that are foreign).

Most of the guys who move up through the weights are generally reliant on at least one of three factors - speed, power, technical skills. Pressure fighters like Murray who lack great power at their natural weightclass generally don't move through different weightclasses well. Look at guys like Juan Diaz or Ricky Hatton (who had a pretty good dig at 140) who didn't handle moving up in weight too well.

will england win the next euros?

i still dont understand your point sorry

Murray has a good knockout percentage and especially recently so perhaps he doesnt have 1 punch power but he wears fighters down, and i think your statement about only fighters with these skills move through the weights is pretty generalised. to really say your statement is accurate we would need to see some facts and figures, have you got any to back up your statement?

[ono]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

Doesn't the fact that Murray struggled badly with a part-time Ice Cream man worry you slightly? Or the fact that he struggled away from home against a fairly limited Miguel Munguia over in the US?
Could that not be an indication that he might not travel well, or he might struggle against somebody with a bit of technical ability and skill? I mean in both those fights, he got pretty generous decisions.

i watched the ice cream man fight, ok it wasnt a vintage performance but it was reasonably early in his carear and it wasnt as bad as everyone is making out

turn the sound down and watch it again, the commentators dont help with their opinions, and if that is the closest he has come to loosing then I still havent seen him look any where near loosing

perhaps he doesnt travel, the time he fought in america was about the same time and again it wasnt a great performance but is it not posible he has learned from it?

It wasn't that early in his career. He was 22-0 for the Munguia fight and 23-0 for the Al Hamidi fight. The Hamidi fight is 3 years after he won the WBC Youth Title, and i think this is what people are getting at with his record. He hasn't kicked on at all, probably through no fault of his own. He's been a pro for almost 7 years and he's still messing about with average domestic fighters.

I fail to see how he can move up to 140 and face a big and talented 140lber, who can dig to boot, and you'd be confident in him winning. Surely you can see why people have little belief in him doing well against Ortiz, or any other decent Light-Welterweight?

His style is about pressure, work-rate and breaking his opponents will. He's ok doing that domestically at 135, but doing that at world level at 140 is a massive jump.

[erics44]

It wasn't that early in his career. He was 22-0 for the Munguia fight and 23-0 for the Al Hamidi fight. The Hamidi fight is 3 years after he won the WBC Youth Title, and i think this is what people are getting at with his record. He hasn't kicked on at all, probably through no fault of his own. He's been a pro for almost 7 years and he's still messing about with average domestic fighters.

I fail to see how he can move up to 140 and face a big and talented 140lber, who can dig to boot, and you'd be confident in him winning. Surely you can see why people have little belief in him doing well against Ortiz, or any other decent Light-Welterweight?

His style is about pressure, work-rate and breaking his opponents will. He's ok doing that domestically at 135, but doing that at world level at 140 is a massive jump.

hes a bit more than ok at it

but yep, i can see how people have their opinions

I also think its very easy to come to that conclusion when you see ortiz fighting in the glitter rings in america on big bills and murray on the undercard on itv, but lets see murray stood next to ortiz, lets see the size difference, and lets see how ortiz reacts when murray keeps coming

It doesnt look like the ortiz fight will ever happen, but im looking forward to seeing murray step up and by the sounds of things it is on the horrizon

[skel1983]

Well that is you fella, end of the day I have put across why I think he hasn't got a
chance until the last reply where you say:

"Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again"

That is the first bit of hard info you have given, prior to that it was your great knowledge of Murray that set you apart from the rest of us but then the cracks of this knowledge stared to appear when you said he has never looked like loosing, when he has already had one gift in his career. Like I say I have met and spoke to John and his trainer Joe few times great guys so this anti Brit bollocks you seen to have your knickers in a twist with does not exist only in your mind.

yep, thats my great knowledge of murray

and ive watched the fight and it wasnt a gift, wasnt a vintage performance but definately didnt deserve to loose

again dude, i think you are still a little upset because there is no give, against ortiz you say murray will loose and has no chance, i say murray could win and his biggest worry is early power,

dont forget we arent just talking about ortiz, it is your opinion that Murray doesnt have a chance at world level, not enough movement, not enough power, struggles with movement, etc

and whether you are friends with him or not, that doesnt mean your opinion of his chances can be taken as more valid than mine or anybody elses

My mate phil works in a large supermarket, doesnt mean i know more about stacking shelves than you

Do you just read little snippets off each post the digest them in your own little world? Where did I say my knowledge of Murray is superior to yours because I no him? My point and my reference to knowing Murray was the fact you seem to have a a little problem with people not bigging British fighters up because they are " British " so I made the point I know him I get on with him so if anything if I was bias I would be blowing smoke up his arse but quite the opposite, he is not world class at the end of the day and we will bump this thread when the day comes or if it comes when he steps up.

[erics44]

Well that is you fella, end of the day I have put across why I think he hasn't got a
chance until the last reply where you say:

"Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again"

That is the first bit of hard info you have given, prior to that it was your great knowledge of Murray that set you apart from the rest of us but then the cracks of this knowledge stared to appear when you said he has never looked like loosing, when he has already had one gift in his career. Like I say I have met and spoke to John and his trainer Joe few times great guys so this anti Brit bollocks you seen to have your knickers in a twist with does not exist only in your mind.

yep, thats my great knowledge of murray

and ive watched the fight and it wasnt a gift, wasnt a vintage performance but definately didnt deserve to loose

again dude, i think you are still a little upset because there is no give, against ortiz you say murray will loose and has no chance, i say murray could win and his biggest worry is early power,

dont forget we arent just talking about ortiz, it is your opinion that Murray doesnt have a chance at world level, not enough movement, not enough power, struggles with movement, etc

and whether you are friends with him or not, that doesnt mean your opinion of his chances can be taken as more valid than mine or anybody elses

My mate phil works in a large supermarket, doesnt mean i know more about stacking shelves than you

Do you just read little snippets off each post the digest them in your own little world? Where did I say my knowledge of Murray is superior to yours because I no him? My point and my reference to knowing Murray was the fact you seem to have a a little problem with people not bigging British fighters up because they are " British " so I made the point I know him I get on with him so if anything if I was bias I would be blowing smoke up his arse but quite the opposite, he is not world class at the end of the day and we will bump this thread when the day comes or if it comes when he steps up.

nope, you keep saying my knowledge of murray is rubbish and you keep saying you know murray, it seemed like you were linking the two

as i have said from the start, i am looking forward to his step up and i think he has a very good chance of making it

and i'll be supporting him all the way

[JazMerkin]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

You asked if I thought England would win it. I didn't, regardless of how much better they looked under Capello.

Like I said in my last post, I think you don't get that most people aside from ICB take things with humour & a pinch of salt here. You seem to think we're all hysterical on here. I don't think that not being upset by a debate on a boxing forum suddenly makes me Lenny McClean

Ortiz has shown he can take that kind of pressure when he fought Nate Campbell. Murray took 9 or 10 to get rid Kudriatsev. At Lightweight, he'd have a shot at some of the titlists, even JMM if he slips a fair bit, but the 140lbers are just too big, strong & fast for him.

so when asked would they win it you said england wont win the world cup? or did you say, they are in the top 6 in the world, they have a chance?

i dont really understand the second sentence of the second bit you wrote

is the size really that much of an issue? there have been plenty of examples recently of smaller fighters moving through the weights and doing well

I said I don't think they'd win the World Cup. I didn't dismiss their chances completely, I just didn't see it happening. I also wouldn't have personally considered them one of the Top 6 sides in the world at the time regardless of what the Fifa rankings were. I recognized they had a chance, but I didn't see the quality being there for anything better than the semi-finals.

Ok my 2nd sentence mean = just because I don't get upset by random bloke on internet does not mean I suddenly think I'm Tony Montana (tell me if I'm using any cultural references that are foreign).

Most of the guys who move up through the weights are generally reliant on at least one of three factors - speed, power, technical skills. Pressure fighters like Murray who lack great power at their natural weightclass generally don't move through different weightclasses well. Look at guys like Juan Diaz or Ricky Hatton (who had a pretty good dig at 140) who didn't handle moving up in weight too well.

will england win the next euros?

i still dont understand your point sorry

Murray has a good knockout percentage and especially recently so perhaps he doesnt have 1 punch power but he wears fighters down, and i think your statement about only fighters with these skills move through the weights is pretty generalised. to really say your statement is accurate we would need to see some facts and figures, have you got any to back up your statement?

Name me a pressure fighter who has moved up successfully through different weightclasses? Just to be clear I'm talking about a guy who breaks opponents down with his will & workrate (which is what Murray generally does) rather than any particular physical qualities. Hatton moved up & picked up an alphabet at 147, but that's about it. I'll give you one.

There is only one guy who has been a pressure fighter & jumped numerous weightclasses & that is Henry Armstrong. No one before or since has really managed it & John Murray is no Henry Armstrong. You could maybe make an argument for Jake LaMotta, but he was always a big welterweight who grew into the middleweight he was & was more comfortable for it.

Again & this is no disrespect to Murray but those are two genuinely great fighters who were also much stronger punchers. Fair enough you think that Murray could beat Ortiz but it took you nearly 5 pages to offer up that you think Murray's pressure would break him, all the while acting like you had some insight that no one else had thought of. No one is 'upset' by your comments, but if your going to position yourself somewhere in a debate you have to give something to back up your argument.

[skel1983]

Well that is you fella, end of the day I have put across why I think he hasn't got a
chance until the last reply where you say:

"Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again"

That is the first bit of hard info you have given, prior to that it was your great knowledge of Murray that set you apart from the rest of us but then the cracks of this knowledge stared to appear when you said he has never looked like loosing, when he has already had one gift in his career. Like I say I have met and spoke to John and his trainer Joe few times great guys so this anti Brit bollocks you seen to have your knickers in a twist with does not exist only in your mind.

yep, thats my great knowledge of murray

and ive watched the fight and it wasnt a gift, wasnt a vintage performance but definately didnt deserve to loose

again dude, i think you are still a little upset because there is no give, against ortiz you say murray will loose and has no chance, i say murray could win and his biggest worry is early power,

dont forget we arent just talking about ortiz, it is your opinion that Murray doesnt have a chance at world level, not enough movement, not enough power, struggles with movement, etc

and whether you are friends with him or not, that doesnt mean your opinion of his chances can be taken as more valid than mine or anybody elses

My mate phil works in a large supermarket, doesnt mean i know more about stacking shelves than you

Do you just read little snippets off each post the digest them in your own little world? Where did I say my knowledge of Murray is superior to yours because I no him? My point and my reference to knowing Murray was the fact you seem to have a a little problem with people not bigging British fighters up because they are " British " so I made the point I know him I get on with him so if anything if I was bias I would be blowing smoke up his arse but quite the opposite, he is not world class at the end of the day and we will bump this thread when the day comes or if it comes when he steps up.

nope, you keep saying my knowledge of murray is rubbish and you keep saying you know murray, it seemed like you were linking the two

as i have said from the start, i am looking forward to his step up and i think he has a very good chance of making it

and i'll be supporting him all the way

I wasn't linking the two but come on you have to admit for a Murray fan your knowledge of his career is not the best.