Ortiz v Murray could be on the Khan v Maidana undercard!

[erics44]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

You asked if I thought England would win it. I didn't, regardless of how much better they looked under Capello.

Like I said in my last post, I think you don't get that most people aside from ICB take things with humour & a pinch of salt here. You seem to think we're all hysterical on here. I don't think that not being upset by a debate on a boxing forum suddenly makes me Lenny McClean

Ortiz has shown he can take that kind of pressure when he fought Nate Campbell. Murray took 9 or 10 to get rid Kudriatsev. At Lightweight, he'd have a shot at some of the titlists, even JMM if he slips a fair bit, but the 140lbers are just too big, strong & fast for him.

so when asked would they win it you said england wont win the world cup? or did you say, they are in the top 6 in the world, they have a chance?

i dont really understand the second sentence of the second bit you wrote

is the size really that much of an issue? there have been plenty of examples recently of smaller fighters moving through the weights and doing well

I said I don't think they'd win the World Cup. I didn't dismiss their chances completely, I just didn't see it happening. I also wouldn't have personally considered them one of the Top 6 sides in the world at the time regardless of what the Fifa rankings were. I recognized they had a chance, but I didn't see the quality being there for anything better than the semi-finals.

Ok my 2nd sentence mean = just because I don't get upset by random bloke on internet does not mean I suddenly think I'm Tony Montana (tell me if I'm using any cultural references that are foreign).

Most of the guys who move up through the weights are generally reliant on at least one of three factors - speed, power, technical skills. Pressure fighters like Murray who lack great power at their natural weightclass generally don't move through different weightclasses well. Look at guys like Juan Diaz or Ricky Hatton (who had a pretty good dig at 140) who didn't handle moving up in weight too well.

will england win the next euros?

i still dont understand your point sorry

Murray has a good knockout percentage and especially recently so perhaps he doesnt have 1 punch power but he wears fighters down, and i think your statement about only fighters with these skills move through the weights is pretty generalised. to really say your statement is accurate we would need to see some facts and figures, have you got any to back up your statement?

[JazMerkin]

Mate, your post couldn't upset me, I just think you're our new comic foil here, spouting silly opinions with half-baked justfications so I thought I'd join in the debate. Can you name some kind of skills/attributes that Murray has over Ortiz to beat him? As I said Ortiz is bigger, stronger, faster & more skilled.

People did say to me before the most recent World Cup that England could win it & I disagreed but that was due to the quality of players and that I feel the likes of Terry, Lampard & Gerrard have been over-hyped in the EPL. If someone had said to me in 2002 that team could win the World Cup, I would have agreed because the team was more balanced imo & the opposition was on paper weaker. Amazingly it's not all a big anti-Brit conspiracy

ooo you sound tough, think you are too hard to crack do you?

Murray is a very determind hard man, ortiz heart has been broken before, i think murray could do it again

it was easy to say before the world cup england had no chance or england dont have the players, and to win a world cup you need a lot of luck and a good cumble of the cake, so when it doesnt all go right its an easy easy call

Yes I've clearly been working hard to cultivate an image as some hardman haven't I?

Ortiz got broken by the hardest puncher at 140lbs, Murray hasn't shown that he can really crack at 135 & that's not even against stellar opposition.

No, the reason that it was easy to say that England wouldn't win the World Cup was because their top players had failed to perform on the international stage each time they were called upon, while other sides were just better. I'll admit that I didn't see Spain winning it because I felt that they were a bit one-dimensional, so I was clearly wrong there.

"Mate, your post couldn't upset me" yep, to your first question

Murray has stopped a lot of people, ok not at world class but he breaks people down, could ortiz take it for 9 or 10 rounds? I dont think so, i think he would wear him down

yes ortiz has a big punch, but also as i said earlier in the thread, Murrays biggest worry would be taking the power early, but he has a very good chin and Ortiz would have to land a lot of punches to knock him out

again dude its very very easy before a wold cup to say england arent gonna win it, before this last world cup they were in the top 6 in the world so they had a chance didnt they? uruaguy made the semis

You asked if I thought England would win it. I didn't, regardless of how much better they looked under Capello.

Like I said in my last post, I think you don't get that most people aside from ICB take things with humour & a pinch of salt here. You seem to think we're all hysterical on here. I don't think that not being upset by a debate on a boxing forum suddenly makes me Lenny McClean

Ortiz has shown he can take that kind of pressure when he fought Nate Campbell. Murray took 9 or 10 to get rid Kudriatsev. At Lightweight, he'd have a shot at some of the titlists, even JMM if he slips a fair bit, but the 140lbers are just too big, strong & fast for him.

so when asked would they win it you said england wont win the world cup? or did you say, they are in the top 6 in the world, they have a chance?

i dont really understand the second sentence of the second bit you wrote

is the size really that much of an issue? there have been plenty of examples recently of smaller fighters moving through the weights and doing well

I said I don't think they'd win the World Cup. I didn't dismiss their chances completely, I just didn't see it happening. I also wouldn't have personally considered them one of the Top 6 sides in the world at the time regardless of what the Fifa rankings were. I recognized they had a chance, but I didn't see the quality being there for anything better than the semi-finals.

Ok my 2nd sentence mean = just because I don't get upset by random bloke on internet does not mean I suddenly think I'm Tony Montana (tell me if I'm using any cultural references that are foreign).

Most of the guys who move up through the weights are generally reliant on at least one of three factors - speed, power, technical skills. Pressure fighters like Murray who lack great power at their natural weightclass generally don't move through different weightclasses well. Look at guys like Juan Diaz or Ricky Hatton (who had a pretty good dig at 140) who didn't handle moving up in weight too well.

will england win the next euros?

i still dont understand your point sorry

Murray has a good knockout percentage and especially recently so perhaps he doesnt have 1 punch power but he wears fighters down, and i think your statement about only fighters with these skills move through the weights is pretty generalised. to really say your statement is accurate we would need to see some facts and figures, have you got any to back up your statement?

Name me a pressure fighter who has moved up successfully through different weightclasses? Just to be clear I'm talking about a guy who breaks opponents down with his will & workrate (which is what Murray generally does) rather than any particular physical qualities. Hatton moved up & picked up an alphabet at 147, but that's about it. I'll give you one.

There is only one guy who has been a pressure fighter & jumped numerous weightclasses & that is Henry Armstrong. No one before or since has really managed it & John Murray is no Henry Armstrong. You could maybe make an argument for Jake LaMotta, but he was always a big welterweight who grew into the middleweight he was & was more comfortable for it.

Again & this is no disrespect to Murray but those are two genuinely great fighters who were also much stronger punchers. Fair enough you think that Murray could beat Ortiz but it took you nearly 5 pages to offer up that you think Murray's pressure would break him, all the while acting like you had some insight that no one else had thought of. No one is 'upset' by your comments, but if your going to position yourself somewhere in a debate you have to give something to back up your argument.

[erics44]

Name me a pressure fighter who has moved up successfully through different weightclasses? Just to be clear I'm talking about a guy who breaks opponents down with his will & workrate (which is what Murray generally does) rather than any particular physical qualities. Hatton moved up & picked up an alphabet at 147, but that's about it. I'll give you one.

There is only one guy who has been a pressure fighter & jumped numerous weightclasses & that is Henry Armstrong. No one before or since has really managed it & John Murray is no Henry Armstrong. You could maybe make an argument for Jake LaMotta, but he was always a big welterweight who grew into the middleweight he was & was more comfortable for it.

Again & this is no disrespect to Murray but those are two genuinely great fighters who were also much stronger punchers. Fair enough you think that Murray could beat Ortiz but it took you nearly 5 pages to offer up that you think Murray's pressure would break him, all the while acting like you had some insight that no one else had thought of. No one is 'upset' by your comments, but if your going to position yourself somewhere in a debate you have to give something to back up your argument.

page 1 post 9 (i think its my second post on the thread)

ill have a think about fighters moving up the weights

will england win the next euros?

[JazMerkin]

Name me a pressure fighter who has moved up successfully through different weightclasses? Just to be clear I'm talking about a guy who breaks opponents down with his will & workrate (which is what Murray generally does) rather than any particular physical qualities. Hatton moved up & picked up an alphabet at 147, but that's about it. I'll give you one.

There is only one guy who has been a pressure fighter & jumped numerous weightclasses & that is Henry Armstrong. No one before or since has really managed it & John Murray is no Henry Armstrong. You could maybe make an argument for Jake LaMotta, but he was always a big welterweight who grew into the middleweight he was & was more comfortable for it.

Again & this is no disrespect to Murray but those are two genuinely great fighters who were also much stronger punchers. Fair enough you think that Murray could beat Ortiz but it took you nearly 5 pages to offer up that you think Murray's pressure would break him, all the while acting like you had some insight that no one else had thought of. No one is 'upset' by your comments, but if your going to position yourself somewhere in a debate you have to give something to back up your argument.

page 1 post 9 (i think its my second post on the thread)

ill have a think about fighters moving up the weights

will england win the next euros?

I reckon there's a good chance if we shift some of the older dead wood & bring through more of the young players. We look like we might have a genuinely world class keeper coming through in Hart, so I think winning the Euros is definitely a possibility, although right now I'd say the Germans, Dutch & the Spanish would be the favourites. A lot depends on how the youngsters come on in the next 2 seasons.

I've gone back & read your post. I don't think it really justifies it, but fair enough I didn't see that so I'll retract that last comment.